It is possible that the boy's "human" spirit was discarded when Griffith used it to reincarnate, which is what has been taking form. Or something.
I dunno, Berserk is pretty firmly a cosmic horror story, I find it just as likely that Guts might ultimately fail.
Though there have always been "good" spirits, Schierke invokes them with her magic at several points. The Skull Knight is also sort of a "good" Godhand, only with less influence in all likelihood.
Guts can't fail. If he fails, I will write and illustrate an alternate ending.
Also, yes, the good spirits are part of what I am on about. That one spirit dyke lady called to protect the boat? That, to me, was the equivalent of a good-side Apostle.
Well I would argue they are above the average Apostle in scale, the average Apostle just a big monster. Maybe about on Ganishka's level (Not after he goes hooge), Ganishka being both and Apostle and powerful sorcerer.
There are other good spiritual entities though, of lesser scale, like Mermaids and elves.
It would take dozens of hours of practice to get his drawing style down. The difference in art density and detail for Kishimoto and Miura is huge. Sure, sometimes Miura gets lazy and draws half-*ssed, but his art style is usually very detailed so it would take quite a while to adjust to his style.
But I am strongly tempted.
I have a couple of "screenshots" saved into my pictures folder and plan to draw them when I get the chance. I'll share them here and you can tell me what you would like improved to match closer to Miura's style: tear me a new one.
I agree with all of the above. Here are the power of the "dark" beings from greatest to least:
-5. The five Godhand members.
-4. Very high-end super apostles like the Ocean Monster and Ganishka's second big-tree form.
-3. Then there are apostles.
-2. Then there are the stronger ones like many of those found at the Eclipse event (when Griffith became Femto).
-1. Various lower-level monsters that Guts encountered before an after the eclipse event(but not during).
0. Between these are the humans and other neutral magical creatures. I would even put the prophetess that Griffith used to predict the future for him before he was captured (she was a wee lass...forget her name...but she was magical be had no "power" power...just could predict the future fairly well).
Are are the ratings for the "good" beings from least to greatest:
1. Low-level magical creatures like the Mermaids (and I think a unicorn).
2. Mid-range good magical beings like Schierke and Farnese.
3. High-end good magical beings like Schierke's teacher: Flora (Griffith feared the power of these witches so much that he sent his apostles to kill them). These would be around apostle level.
4. Very-high end magical beings like the one called to create a protective barrier for the ship guarding against the Ocean Monster's encroachment.
5. The "light-side" God or Godhand which has yet to be revealed. I believe guts will become part of this group, eventually.
Then there are "third kind" which are both good but are in "evil" forms: Skull Knight. They do not fit on this Scale. I would say that Zodd fits into this category, as well: he has allowed both Guts and Griffith to ride him (no homo). He is more a pure warrior type: he pledged his loyalty to Griffith only because Griffith defeated him in a "fair" fight. So I cannot really say that he is neutral (0) but he is definitely one of the demons. He pretty much is a Klingon type character: fighting for glory and honor. Not quite neutral...but not really good or bad, either.
By the way, I would place Guts between 3 and 4 on the scale I created. He is stronger than the 3's but I do not think he is more powerful than Flora or other high-end good witches.
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Last edited by dadudemon on Mar 6th, 2012 at 11:06 PM
I am no artist, so I am not sure what help I can be, but if you wish I would look at your work, yes.
As long as you don't do any bullshit like draw Mei and stop drawing at the neckline, dick.
I would say Apostle Spawn would generally fit in 2, with maybe some of the strongers one (Like Mozgus) being a 3. Certainly, Mozgus was demonstratably much more powerful than the average Apostle IMO. Actually, some Apostles are simply much more powerful than most, like the generals of the new Band of the Hawk, and Ganishka, even before his sort of apostheosis, was arguably more powerful than all of them combined, albeit due to his sorcery.
Also, the Idea of Evil tops the list, being the creator of the Godhand, though his current status in canon is uncertain.
I struggle to remember who you are talking about. All that comes close is Sonia, whom Griffith only met after his reincarnation.
The Mermaids en masse are pretty damn powerful, able to threaten the Sea God. Though yeah individually they don't seem "all that". Witches like Schierke are somewhat harder to place, since Schierke requires several strong fighters to aid her while she charges the really big magic, though even without that yeah she is pretty powerful. Though they vary, since magic is used to make oneself an avatar of many of the high-level spiritual beings that you mentioned.
One could argue that nearly the entire new Band of the Hawk could be lumped in with Zodd in that regard, sans Rakshas. Even Grunbeld has some noble qualities, and Irvine and Locus in particular are probably less "evil" than Zodd, IMO.
With the Berserker Armour that sounds about right to me.
As a big fan of the series and being what I would call the only "expert" on the series I know, you'd be able to tell very quickly is something seemed off or wasn't right.
In my defense, I drew that from the actual panel...she was cut off there, too.
There is a second image of her I have saved that I will draw and color....soon. It is more of a bust "panel" so it will work better for your "goals".
I could eliminate the shirt she wears if you REALLY want those images for bates...but that is not the type of stuff I draw nor is it my goal.
I agree about the spawns.
Ganishka's first form does not count, imo, because he augmented his apostle form with magic. However, we can compare his super apostle form to Godhand member, Femto, and see that Femto is/was still noticeably more powerful than even a super-apostle. I cannot justify putting him any higher than any other apostles. Apostles have variable strength, of course, just like all major groupings do.
Also, Ganishka's original apostle form (which was magic enhanced) had a weakness that could be exploited.
It is unknown if that is truly real or just an idea/metaphor for the evil of the world. Additionally, it is pretty much powerless to do anything other than influence evil thoughts. IMO, it is even more powerless than a witch as it only channels strength from beings rather than directly exerts it. Basically...the Idea of Evil is the Mormon Satan.
Yes, Sonia, that's her. And, yeah, got mixed up: she was after the reformed Band of the Hawk. I went into my mind's files and recalled images from past chapters, saw the panels that referenced "Band of the Hawk" and Griffith's human form and incorrectly concluded that that character was not the "old" band of the Hawk because I forgot that the new one is also called the "Band of the Hawk".
I don't think they were ever a threat to the Sea God, actually. Else they could have defeated it a while back. They could just paralyze it enough so that Guts could make a slash at the heart.
I'm sure they would be formidable with their paralysis singing against a human or two...or three...except very high end humans like Guts.
Yes, which initially made me worry about placing the witches anywhere (because they channel powerful beings rather than being powerful themselves like the Idea of Evil) but I scrapped that remembering that Schierke could do other magical things like hypnotize stuff, iirc.
It is more difficult for me to do so for the other new hawk members. For instance, Grunbeld did mention the dishonor in killing Flora but does so anyway. Whereas Zodd made a promise to follow Griffith if defeated. This means that Zodd is more of a pure "honor"...
It is difficult to describe and it probably sounds crazy for me to justify that Zodd is not evil when he massacred so many men in that dungeon (when we first met him). Lemme put it this way: Grunbeld was like, "I think it is dishonorable to kill Flora" whereas Zodd was like, "K, defeat me and on my honor, I will follow you to death." Zodd is a tool...of honor. Difficult to describe but the greater "evil" lies in Grunbeld doing something he knew or felt was wrong. Maybe Zodd felt the same but it wasn't on the level of Grunbeld's guilt. So I put Zodd more in the "moral relative" grouping of my "third kind" category than I do Grunbeld. Grunbeld almost got my vote for third kind but didn't make the cut for his comments about the dishonor in killing Flora.
Also consider that each person would have had to become an apostle through evil means and had to knowingly do so (selfish reasons that are pretty much the most evil and discpicable things that could be done). Zodd? He could have just lured very powerful warriors to fight and kill at his sacrifice point and he did so not out of a want of power but to be able to continue to fight strong guys for honor, to do his transformation. That would be just like Zodd to do so. Sure, not righteous...but not quite evil, either. Grunbeld does not strike me as the type to have done that. Grunbeld seems like the type that became good after being power hungry to become an apostle. This is speculation.
Rakshas, is a creep, to the max, without a doubt.
Locus seems to be cold-blooded...difficult to characterize...but he seems more like a ninja-type. Close to neutral but with a slight lean towards the evil side. Mostly because he's a sniper. He does have chivalry...but so do some rapists.
Of those...Irvine most resembles Zodd (in motivation) so I would be willing to move Irvine in with Zodd on the "third kind" category.
Even before the armor, he could defeat most apostles. Without the armor, I say he is closer to 3. With the armor, I say he is closer to 4 (realize that I consider the two scales I built to be reflections of each other like a true "good" and "evil" scale. Note that the 3s and 4s generally match up).
This means that I consider a "prime" Flora to be a challenge to the super-Apostle types. Keep in mind that there were other witches that Griffith was seeking to destroy and Schierke is still learning (using Skyrim terms, Flora is a "master" and Schierke is an "adept" t "apprentice" level). Again, the Idea of Evil is not on the list due to the questionability of the canon-ness and also due to how the Idea of Evil doesn't/can't do anything evil directly.
It is hilarious that you consider me an expert when I only just started reading Berserk like six months ago at best.
I was joking, sicko.
Femto was more powerful, yes, and fair enough, as long as your ***** ass acknowledges that strength between Apostles varies.
Also, what was Ganishka's weakness? That Guts can stab him in the head? Guts can do that to most things. Or are you referring to Femto's weird "wind" effect? I would also like to point out that Ganishka seems to have an incredibly strong mind, seeing as he resisted Femto's authority as a member of the Godhand, unlike other Apostles which tended to join him unfailingly. Just thought it was neat.
It is what empowers humans to become Godhands, and is directly responsible for much of the misery on the planet, being created for that sole purpose by the minds of humans. While you could argue that it needing humanity to exist is a weakness, the same could be said of the Godhand and all Apostles, since they need the Idea of Evil to exist in that form, and by the Transitive Property they would then need humans to exist in such a form, which being former humans means the process has effectively gone full-circle (And IIRC it is actually implied that all supernatural creatures such as elves are created by human consciousness).
The circle of life, it rules us all, fool.
Ah.
They confined it to an island for a while, it only being released when Ganishka pretty much shoved his penor in the veil between the material and immaterial.
I would agree, and could probably beat them physically in water.
Better have ****er.
I would agree that Grunbeld is worse than Zodd, but he at least has something resembling standards.
Compare him to Wyald for example. "Enjoyment and Excitement!"
I dunno, even the most seemingly horrible Apostles occasionally have something vaguely resembling redeeming qualities. The Count from early on was the first Apostle not shown to be a complete monster, ultimately choosing to damn himself rather than sacrifice his daughter.
You have to remember that evil does not call the Godhand to your Behelit. It is ultimate despair, every Apostle experienced a moment of overwhelming despair, making them easy to manipulate into sacrificing someone they love for whatever purpose.
Indeed, especially the implication that he may not be an Apostle. He is the only member of the new BotH to show not even one redeeming quality, though admittedly he also has had the least characterization.
Locus is the centaur, Irvine the sniper, lol. Irvine mostly gets bonus points due to his scenes with Sonia, whom he seems to care about and goes to great efforts to keep safe.
Well, without the armour, he still had a lot of trouble in dealing with most Apostles, and typically finished fights half-dead. He cuts through your average Apostle like butter with the armour.
Flora is implied to be very powerful even old, yeah. Griffith, even though Flora was near death, was worried by her.
I disagree. I think you started reading it a couple of years back and then took a break and picked it up again.
You were not.
"Between the eyes" was his weakness, iirc. But you had to have a magical weapon to shoot or slash between his eyes due to his intangible form.
The Godhand don't even need the Idea of Evil, imo.
Probably.
I am forgetting a myriad of other minor magical things she did (didn't she vanish something and transmute something?)
Grunbeld is close to by my "third kind", for sure.
There is nothing that is pure evil in the series except for possibly the Idea of Evil.
I think it was desperation WITH a sacrifice. The worst Zodd could be was extremely desparate to want to fight more. Maybe he fought too long and hard and was about to die so he was very desperate and used his enemies as his sacrifice? I picture Zodd's turning to be like Guts 100-man killing adventure. Meaning, he was in a similar situation to Guts but instead of winning it, he pretty much died and his desperation to win activated his behelit.
He does some magical looking stuff so he may be an apostle in association, only.
Seriously...I could have sworn I correct that name swap error in my post. Not even kidding or saving face: I noticed the error and swapped the names. I'm horribly bad with names.
But, yes, I mean Irvine is cold and Locus seemed to be just like Zodd in that he has "pure" honor because he refused to join up with any forces not worthy of his lance.
Ahhhh, but you see....up until he fought Dolph Lundgren, he won all of those encounters. That's the difference. He approaches 4 WHEN he puts on the armor. He could then fight high end apostles at that point.
Indeeeeed. Griffith apparently sh*t himself over the various witches like Flora. If they are a big enough threat to warrant exterminating all of them, that puts them near the level of Godhands.
I'd say Griffith is the oxymoronic male type. He's extremely manly but extremely elegant. Difficult to explain, actually. But he's one of the manliest characters in the series...up...to a certain point.
Griffith was my favorite character until the Eclipse. Once you get to the Eclipse...you'll see why.
"Technically" true, but I only read the first volume back then and as such didn't have enough time to form an opinion on the series, since in the first volume the only truly notable aspects of the series were how dark the world was and how the protagonist was utterly lacking a moral compass, which was interesting, but didn't get me to continue reading due to laziness. When I started reading a few months ago, I started from the beginning because I forgot how it started off.
Yuh huh.
Yeah and it took Guts in the Berserker Armour and Zodd teaming up to manage this, lol. And... A huge sword between the eyes would kill most Apostles, lol.
I disagree, it explicitly grants them their power.
Damn right.
Using some minor material components, she was able to set a group of trolls on fire and kill them, she can use birds as second eyes in place of standard astral projection, I don't know about transmutation of anything but there are specific magical items prepared that can be transmuted and wielded (Like the brambles she gave Farnese), she can also control weak minds and erase memories with her staff, to name a few examples of shit she can do unassisted. Oh, and she can create golems and shit.
Hooray.
I would disagree. There is nothing even vaguely good about who Wyald is or what he does. Ganishka's deeds are arguably worse, but at least he has a sort of bad backstory, though it is so lame in comparison to other backstories by Berserk standards I honestly don't think it absolves him of shit. Griffith as Femto is also pretty bad, but due to the traumatic bullshit causing it he might not be "pure" evil. The other Godhand may count as well, Void seems to not just be evil, he views evil as a philosophical standard, Conrad delighted in breaking Griffith's mind so he would join their ranks, and in general their job is to cause humanity as a whole to suffer. But, IMO the worst character is Ganishka, but that is just me.
Zodd doesn't seem the type to become an Apostle because he was about to die in battle, that is an "honorable" death. What I would prefer is, after a life of being unrivaled in combat, something happens like... He gets a disease, and starts to die and wither away in a bed, unable to fight against it, dying not as a warrior, but as a weakling, and in that desperation to not die an unworthy death, he summoned the Godhand.
He might be a sorcerer, like Ganishka and Ganishka's right hand were, both of whom were capable of doing some shit.
Noob!
Really, Locus and Irvine have yet to even do something vaguely evil, IMO. Irvine is cold, but by Apostle standards they are practically Saint-like.
Yo nigga stfu.
Personally I doubt that their threat level in terms of power rivals a Godhand, only that collectively they could pose a problem, or maybe that they have access to some knowledge that would prove dangerous.
And yeah, amount of nudity tends to vary, but at least Caska has a reason to be naked most of the time. Unlike HSDK, where if a man gets cut, he bleeds, but if a woman gets cut, her boobs just pop out more.
Well I guess that's okay, at least it's not the annoying nude scenes like in HSDK.
Finally read passed "Eclipse"...that was some ****ed up shit. Though I though I was watching porn during the rape scene at first before I read it again to realize it was actually rape; damn that was ****ed.
Nice. It's cool to see someone else getting caught up on a very good manga series. Makes me relive those moments. I ****in' hated Griffith during volume 13.
That should tell you how well it is written. Then again...I was what....14-15 at the time?
It is no big deal but I don't really forget easy-to-remember stuff like that. It's cause I love you.
Well, we'll see. I like Caska's "new" look so I may draw a nude of her. Maybe.
It would only take someone knowing the weakness to fire a "magical" arrow between his eyes. There are/were plenty of archers and witches around (enough that Griffith ran an extermination campaign against them). It is just that knowing his weakness is the hard part.
And...are you sure about a huge sword between the eyes killing most apostles? It seems like, of the ones Guts fought, hardly any of them would go down to something like that.
I disagree because it is:
1. Not canon.
2. Says he simply brings about the worst desires in people.
Therefore, it is complete and utter shit: useless. It can't do anything. The power is given to them by themselves.
Think about how circular the reasoning is and then you'll see what I mean. Bascially...you're suggesting we can plug a powerstrip into itself to give it power.
I changed my mind: most human males would be overcome by their hotness and singing and rape their fish asses right in the water.
Cool. I literally read this ***** over the course of a decade so some of the details go fuzzy.
STFU with the celebrating.
You have never heard of moral relativism? Pretty much there is always something positive or good about everyone's motivations from their own point of view.
I'll file your example away as "probable option 2". I like your suggestion, as well. It just means that there is much more for Miura to flesh out OR to let another writer create for him.
He could be...but he's an apostle only in that he serves the godhand and "they" recognize him. They equals Femto.
That's just a flesh wound.
I disagree. They didn't have to kill all of those enemy soldiers. They could pull a Vash the Stampede and they DO have the ability. A they are that awesome. They enjoy the slaughter. Ganishika's army is similar to the old-school Persian army where people were forced to serve. So why didn't they stop with their horrendous slaughter? I say it is because they like slaying he weak. In Zodd's case, it is because Femto won him, fair and square. In other's cases? Well...they don't seem to be so simple minded or extremely Klingon-like honor bound. This is part of why I put Zodd as the only "third kind"of person because he's really the only one that is truly not evil but is evil.
Admit it: Guts could pull wins out of his ass no matterthe circumstance....
That was until he fought Dolph Lungren. Then he got pwned until he put on the armor.
It's possible but keep in mind that Schierke knew high level magic that was enough to protect a large area against a monster that was between apostle and Godhand level (the Sea God). She knew it so well that it was rather casual: she told her apprentice how to call that protection down.
I can only imagine what a armed and fully operational death star could do. I mean a prime Flora.
KMC Community Forums
Mar 6th, 2012 05:55 AM
Or are you referring to Femto's weird "wind" effect? I would also like to point out that Ganishka seems to have an incredibly strong mind, seeing as he resisted Femto's authority as a member of the Godhand, unlike other Apostles which tended to join him unfailingly. Just thought it was neat. 
