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Re: Re: Phantom Limb Syndrom in Nonamputees (yes this does happen)
Really...What about Disaccociative Identity Disorder? People with this believe they are other people, and in some cases other lifeforms; which could lead one to believe that they, are in some way, experiencing 'phantom wings.'
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Last edited by Evilbigfoot on Mar 17th, 2010 at 03:57 PM
Re: Re: Re: Phantom Limb Syndrom in Nonamputees (yes this does happen)
DID, even among the percentage of psychologists who believe it is a legitimate syndrome, has nothing to do with phantom limb.
DID is an issue with identity and behavioural motivation, whereas phantom limb is perceptual in nature. Basically, DID would almost assuredly be in the lymbic-prefrontal areas (I guess I shouldn't speak so authoritatively) whereas phantom limb is within the somatosensory cortex. They connect, to be sure, but a person's personality shouldn't have such a strong impact that they would literally be able to form new structures within their somatosensory areas to represent the body parts they wished they had.
A better analog might be hallucinated or illusory touch experiences, that can originate in higher cognitive areas than perceptual issues. Believing you felt something on your arm does not necessarily produce the same experience as feeling something on the arm (though there are similarities)
[actually, thinking about this, LSD is said to cause colour perception of hues not found in the real world (and outside of the knee-jerk "oh, its drugs" answer), this could represent activation of sensory areas by drugs in ways that real-world phenomena can't/don't reproduce... this may connect beliefs and the somatasensory cortex, though obviously not in the "I have wings" way]
As I understand it, LSD inhibits the neurons which inhibit dreaming while awake. In a sense, dreaming volume gets turned up, integrates with waking awareness, and this produces quite a number of effects not found in the real world. The visual field on an LSD trip even seems to bear some similarity to the visual field in a lucid dream. Both involve input which "invade" the rational mind and its normal way of perceiving time, space, subject and object.
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lol, I actually just did 2 presentations for a prof in a seminar course I'm taking, and her comment was that I didn't have to just try to tear down all of the articles
not even, I'm just a pedant and my brain works in an incredibly linear fashion.
ok, but personal bias is what motivates all research programmes. People have a hunch and follow it.
The question would be, is it more probable that the bias in the researcher (though, no research has really been done, she wrote the article that the article you cited cites, where she mentioned her ideas to Ramachandran) was due to a) she actually never experienced phantom penis and thinks this might represent a biological link to transgender cognitions, or b) she is motivated primarily by the fact that she DID experience phantom penis and wants to hide it from the world by proposing new research that actually undermines science, the thing she has dedicated her life to.
Sure, b has a non-zero probability. It also has no evidence to support it. I think it is also worth mentioning that the "I need to hide the fact, from myself and even in abstract from the world, that I was ever a man" is not a psychology normally associated with transgender individuals. To assume this researcher would have this, and would be so motivated to hide it that she undermines something she has worked for years on is retarded.
If her results don't add up, we'll talk
these are hypothetical complaints about research that has yet to be conducted
it is not an a priori reason to assume that there aren't somatosensory differences between transgendered individuals and other people.
so would everyone. This doesn't support your dismissal of a genuinly valid theory a priori because "Transgendered people are motivated to undermine the scientific method, intentionally, for reasons of identity issues"
I think you are taking it a bit to literally. One of my criticisms with how you understand the brain would be in how absolutist everything is. Love is from X and lasts Y years because of Z. Sure, cool, I really don't want to get into it, but trust me, there is at least 79% more to that story that we haven't even thought about yet. Please trust me on this.
So, its not going to be the case that it is even a HUGELY significant portion of TS people who don't get the phenomenon, it might just be that there is less, and this might represent differences in somatosensory development. Is this genetic? does it come from neuroplasticity? is it a hormonal reaction? does it come from innoculous early developmental or social cues? all of these could be true and the somatosensory differences would be the result. There wont be a way to, with 100% accuracy, tell if someone is TS from somatosensory development (some cases may be easy, but without a doubt others will be impossible), nor are they proposing a single underlying cause of TS. Just saying that personal reports of TS people suggest they report phantom penis less than amputees and this might indicate developmental differences
so, these doctors performed a male-to-female surgery and the paitent experienced the phantom penis for about 6 months. However, once they removed certain musles, which flared in correlation with the experience of phantom penis (only errect sensation), the experience stopped. They conclude that phantom penis may be more related to reminants of muscle tissue from surgery rather than misfiting in the somatasensory cortex.
While phantom limb is assumed to be located in the parietal lobe, the input from sensory systems can't be ignored, and maybe there is more to the story in ALL cases, rather than just cortical misfiring. In any event, no scans were done, so we can't say what, but this does illustrate that it might not be the same thing at all.
lol, seriously, more people need to be doing this research
however, since you have sensory input from the intrafusal muscle fibers, I dont see how that really contradicts current theory. Its still a re-organization of sensory input., regardless of whether it goes to the primary somatosensory cortex or not...and I think afferents form the intrafusal muscle fibers do...
Since it has zero relation, I dont see how that is possible
They're both the perception of a limb that isn't there. The difference is that phantom limb actually used to be there. I'd also cynically point out that without fail "otherkin" have cool body parts (wings, elf ears) rather than mundane ones . . .
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from a neuroscience perspective, the origin in muscle vs cortex is huge, even if just from a theoretical perspective
A Canadian article that I couldn't get access to (it was also only a review, so no new data, no scans for sure), for instance, claimed that the phantom penis was specifically caused by crossed communication in somatosensory areas of the parietal cortex, which it appears may not be the entire story
from a more general biological view, the ideas are totally congruent, and the somatosensory mix-up theory would really only need to be modified in the slightest way
Wow. amazed by the amount of hatred from you all. we use the association with phantom limb because a proper term doesn't exist. and i'm pretty sure that you all are the "religious" type. so you WON'T like what I'm about to say. i've combined the creationist and evolution theories to a point that even the most stubborn "religious" don't deny that it makes sense. and this condition falls into my theories. we feel oddities that are not nor have not ever been there because they are recessive in our genetics. the nerve structure in these specific people may coordinate with previous generational traits. for the creationists, adam and eve were some sort of cellular devices. adam first then eve from him. they broke the bliss of self existance by combining and creating 2 others caine and able. caine being viral and agressive killed off able and began self replication. and so on ... til "corporal" forms were created. and from that we've kept evolving. and we haven't stopped. we're at a point that forced evolution is coming into play and our recessive genetics are kicking in, our ancestral genetics, the wings and tails, horns and tusks, ears and alterier limbs are the work of our genetics structuralizing our nervous system for the future or remembering the past. As I stated this Will bring much hatred toward myself but maybe it will enlighten a few others. I've many theories that I've discovered through my reworking of the production of man. including viruses, twins +, cancer, sids, and many other medical conditions associated with the cellular and genetic growth over time. feel free to contact me via youtube or facebook, i might get it on here or at my yahoo/gmail addresses by the same name.
I felt my phantom wings for the first time last night! I wasn't quite sure what it was at first... I felt a numbness in my back and then I felt like there was something heavy attached to my back... I shifted in my seat and felt the muscles in my back pull and strain from the weight... I continued to shift so I could see how it felt to move them. I was unable to get the sensation of moving them it was like my muscles were too weak. I then reached back and of course I already knew there was nothing there but it was instinct to reach back lol. So I sat there contemplating this... I told a friend about it before I went to bed and well, he didn't like call me nuts etc... so I decided to Google Feeling phantom wings!!! I found your post! I am a singer songwriter and am on a very enlightened path. I have had OBE and such but nothing like this lol. Anyway... I am not afraid to tell the world what I think and feel and believe! To keep it silent would go against what we are here to do... learn and share knowledge and experiences! I told the world today about "feeling" my wings. You are not alone! No I don't believe they are really there and no I can't see them but I have an idea of what they might look like based on how they felt to me. Look me up LIZZY BLONDE I can also change my eye color at will... this is real... I have had many see me do it and scared the shit out of a drunk stoned dude at a party once lol. I don't go around bragging or showing it off but I was drunk too and got a bit carried away with myself... let's just say I am much more careful with it now! Thanks for posting about this! Love&Respect-XoXoX-(LB
KMC Community Forums
Mar 17th, 2010 03:43 PM
to the haters and sceptics
Phantom Wings
