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Keeping Joker Alive: A Stupid Move?
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roughrider
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They're painted themselves into a corner ever since Jason Todd was murdered in 1988. The explanations and rationalizing since then borders on nonsensical - it's less important that the authorities don't give in to Joker (by killing him) than to protect the lives of the hundreds he has ruined?
Back in the late 40's, they pulled back on Joker's homicidal tendencies, because it just made Batman look impotent by not dealing with him harshly. It's been two decades since The Dark Knight Returns, and things have escalated ever since. Joker is just going to have to be killed, then come back in a cloned body or something. The shoe has been waiting to drop for decades.


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Old Post Sep 23rd, 2009 03:36 AM
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srankmissingnin
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by roughrider
They're painted themselves into a corner ever since Jason Todd was murdered in 1988. The explanations and rationalizing since then borders on nonsensical - it's less important that the authorities don't give in to Joker (by killing him) than to protect the lives of the hundreds he has ruined?
Back in the late 40's, they pulled back on Joker's homicidal tendencies, because it just made Batman look impotent by not dealing with him harshly. It's been two decades since The Dark Knight Returns, and things have escalated ever since. Joker is just going to have to be killed, then come back in a cloned body or something. The shoe has been waiting to drop for decades.


The problem is that Batman is governed by a flawed sense of moral absolutism focus mainly around the belief that murder is wrong regardless of the circumstance, and Joker exists solely to challenge Batman's core belief structure. If Batman kills Joker - like Joker believes is necessary - then Joker wins. Killing the Joker proves his point, and so Batman can't kill the him or the Joker ultimately wins and Batman is destroyed. Since Batman's world is so black and white, if he kills the Joker, he becomes a villian in his own mind, and a villian can't be trusted to be Batman. The kicker of course is that in the end it is absolutely necessary...

Someone needs to kill Joker, it just can't be Batman.

EDIT: Batman needs therapy


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Last edited by srankmissingnin on Sep 23rd, 2009 at 04:23 AM

Old Post Sep 23rd, 2009 04:16 AM
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-Pr-
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
He did say something though. I can't remember the exact quote but it was something like "It didn't mater who did, because one of us couldn't be trusted, none of us could. It didnt matter who it was, only that it happened, and I would never let it happen again."

The difference between respect for certain police officers and the justice system as a whole was my intire point...


i don't recall the statement, but if it was something to that effect, then it strengthens my point, imo.

yes, i know, but it's like philo said: batman doesn't want to replace the system. he wants to augment it. make it more efficient, but still governed by those in authority.


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Old Post Sep 23rd, 2009 09:42 AM
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HueyFreeman
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Philosophía
Expand.

You think it's only normal Batman starts judging and incarcerating criminals by himself, effectivly replacing the whole system/law, because he is currently helping it ? Or that apparently Batman isn't helping the system (the one who is supposed to protect citizens & capture and judge criminals) by protecting citizens, capturing criminals and handing them over to the police ?

Or you're here only for cheerleading ?
Batman's mere existence represents a failure of the system. His reasons for not incarcerating the joker in his own prison are at best laughable. Batman breaks so many laws everyday but he still feels he has no right to pronounce sentence on a criminal like the Joker is stupid. Hes pretty much a hypocrite with a flawed sense of self righteousness that breaks the law when its convenient for his own moral code. Jokers not some low level hood. In our society he would make Bundy, BTK, and Gacy look tame in comparison. Theres no justifiable way of keeping someone like him alive.


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Last edited by HueyFreeman on Sep 23rd, 2009 at 05:44 PM

Old Post Sep 23rd, 2009 05:29 PM
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siriuswriter
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Icy Ninja
I always thought he got let off for claiming insanity which is true erm


i always thought pleading insanity means the criminal had no criminal intent and they didn't know what they were doing and/or the consequences of what they're doing.

by those standards, the joker is incredibly stone-cold sane.


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Old Post Sep 24th, 2009 03:12 PM
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roughrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The problem is that Batman is governed by a flawed sense of moral absolutism focus mainly around the belief that murder is wrong regardless of the circumstance, and Joker exists solely to challenge Batman's core belief structure. If Batman kills Joker - like Joker believes is necessary - then Joker wins. Killing the Joker proves his point, and so Batman can't kill the him or the Joker ultimately wins and Batman is destroyed. Since Batman's world is so black and white, if he kills the Joker, he becomes a villian in his own mind, and a villian can't be trusted to be Batman. The kicker of course is that in the end it is absolutely necessary...

Someone needs to kill Joker, it just can't be Batman.

EDIT: Batman needs therapy


Yet you notice how quick writers & editors allow Joker to be killed once they are out of regular DC continuity - The Dark Knight Returns, Kingdom Come. In Dark Knight, Batman definitely feels responsible for the Joker: "I'll add them to the list, Joker. The list of all the people I've murdered - by letting you live." And "How many more...until I finally do it?"(Kill Joker)
It's been the argument for decades that they can't kill Joker because it just would be proving him right, somehow...plus because he's insane, he can't be held responsible for his actions. You wonder when someone other than Batman is just going to say enough is enough.

Batman isn't alone in this dilemma. Daredevil has this problem with the Kingpin & Bullseye, where's he stuck in a cycle he can't break with them. Of course, he has his day job as a lawyer that makes him even more committed to society's due process, than Batman does.


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Old Post Sep 24th, 2009 04:46 PM
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Deadline
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Philosophía
This problem has been adressed in comics.

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Jesus said I am the light truth and the way. Basically some DC fans lose the ability to use any common sense because they are in love with the DCU. DC can come up with any excuse and it will be accepted. Hate to break it to you but its a fictional universe Batman does certain things becaue we need to keep seeing the villaiins again not because it makes any sense.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
He wasn't going to allow someone to be punished for a crime they didn't commit.


So what?


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Last edited by Deadline on Sep 24th, 2009 at 06:10 PM

Old Post Sep 24th, 2009 06:01 PM
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Darth Jello
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by roughrider
Yet you notice how quick writers & editors allow Joker to be killed once they are out of regular DC continuity - The Dark Knight Returns, Kingdom Come. In Dark Knight, Batman definitely feels responsible for the Joker: "I'll add them to the list, Joker. The list of all the people I've murdered - by letting you live." And "How many more...until I finally do it?"(Kill Joker)
It's been the argument for decades that they can't kill Joker because it just would be proving him right, somehow...plus because he's insane, he can't be held responsible for his actions. You wonder when someone other than Batman is just going to say enough is enough.

Batman isn't alone in this dilemma. Daredevil has this problem with the Kingpin & Bullseye, where's he stuck in a cycle he can't break with them. Of course, he has his day job as a lawyer that makes him even more committed to society's due process, than Batman does.


I think it's an issue of the writers clutching at straws, especially with the whole insanity defense thing. Daredevil has used a level of force that Batman would never stoop to and actually has tried to kill both the Kingpin and Bullseye before and has tortured and killed other villains on occasion. Whether he was in his right mind or not (typically not) at the time is another question. I think its arguable that given the current scenario, Batman almost has a duty to kill the Joker.


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Old Post Sep 24th, 2009 06:18 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Jesus said I am the light truth and the way. Basically some DC fans lose the ability to use any common sense because they are in love with the DCU. DC can come up with any excuse and it will be accepted. Hate to break it to you but its a fictional universe Batman does certain things becaue we need to keep seeing the villaiins again not because it makes any sense.



So what?


so what what?


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Old Post Sep 24th, 2009 06:32 PM
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Deadline
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
so what what?


Nevermind its ahile back I dont think you remember what we were talking about.


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Old Post Sep 24th, 2009 07:23 PM
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-Pr-
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Nevermind its ahile back I dont think you remember what we were talking about.


the fact that batman cleared the joker of a crime he didn't commit...


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Old Post Sep 24th, 2009 08:25 PM
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Philosophía
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by HueyFreeman
Batman's mere existence represents a failure of the system. His reasons for not incarcerating the joker in his own prison are at best laughable. Batman breaks so many laws everyday but he still feels he has no right to pronounce sentence on a criminal like the Joker is stupid. Hes pretty much a hypocrite with a flawed sense of self righteousness that breaks the law when its convenient for his own moral code. Jokers not some low level hood. In our society he would make Bundy, BTK, and Gacy look tame in comparison. Theres no justifiable way of keeping someone like him alive.


His reasons for not incarcerating Joker is because he is not the law and what happens to him after he is apprehended is, like I and the scans I posted point out, none of his business. He is only there to help the system, not to become it. Period.

Saying that the reasons for Batman not becoming the judge, jury and executioner in a system separate from the current one, making his own prison and deeming sentences as he sees fit are 'laughable at best' shows a lack of knowledge on the character and logic.

Even moreso, you seem to miss the point that this is not just about Joker. Why stop there ? Two-Face. Zsasz. Random supervillain X. Is he dangerous to the society ? Check. Have they escaped many times and performed murderous deeds ? Check. Let's have Batman shove them all into the prison he builds outside of the system.

I should have stopped when I first told Srank that this is becoming too stupid to further pursue and it has become even stupider, funnily enough. So I will stop now.


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Old Post Sep 25th, 2009 12:40 PM
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starlock
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Philosophía
His reasons for not incarcerating Joker is because he is not the law and what happens to him after he is apprehended is, like I and the scans I posted point out, none of his business. He is only there to help the system, not to become it. Period.

Saying that the reasons for Batman not becoming the judge, jury and executioner in a system separate from the current one, making his own prison and deeming sentences as he sees fit are 'laughable at best' shows a lack of knowledge on the character and logic.

Even moreso, you seem to miss the point that this is not just about Joker. Why stop there ? Two-Face. Zsasz. Random supervillain X. Is he dangerous to the society ? Check. Have they escaped many times and performed murderous deeds ? Check. Let's have Batman shove them all into the prison he builds outside of the system.

I should have stopped when I first told Srank that this is becoming too stupid to further pursue and it has become even stupider, funnily enough. So I will stop now.


I see it more as too much knowledge of Batman and too much logic.....and your right why stop there....just like the death penealty there is criteria for what crime deserves capital punishment....for batman to keep this up is whats laughable i.m.o., i think its one of the reasons the thread was made...Batman cant handle the weight of such actions..to do what is right and nessasary is too much for him to take....Wonder Woman has been in that position and i think it really fleshed out her character and moved her foward in her evolution as a character


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Old Post Sep 25th, 2009 01:24 PM
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HueyFreeman
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Philosophía
His reasons for not incarcerating Joker is because he is not the law and what happens to him after he is apprehended is, like I and the scans I posted point out, none of his business. He is only there to help the system, not to become it. Period.

Saying that the reasons for Batman not becoming the judge, jury and executioner in a system separate from the current one, making his own prison and deeming sentences as he sees fit are 'laughable at best' shows a lack of knowledge on the character and logic.

Even moreso, you seem to miss the point that this is not just about Joker. Why stop there ? Two-Face. Zsasz. Random supervillain X. Is he dangerous to the society ? Check. Have they escaped many times and performed murderous deeds ? Check. Let's have Batman shove them all into the prison he builds outside of the system.

I should have stopped when I first told Srank that this is becoming too stupid to further pursue and it has become even stupider, funnily enough. So I will stop now.
Lets not kid our selves. He breaks the law whenever it suits his need. Hes an obstruction as well albeit a good one. Hes not helping the law along, hes demonstrating why the system is ****ed up. His stance is hypocritical. Hes okay with breaking the law to instill fear in others but at the same time he feels hes not above the law? Please, what a load of horse shit. His stance has nothing to do with the law but his own set of morale. If he can hack classified information, break into buildings, commit assault on a daily bases than he does feel hes above the law otherwise he wouldn't you know "break the law"! You either accept the law or you don't. Theres no in-between. Also your wrong, I perfectly understand his character and his logic, I am saying his logic is stupid.


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Last edited by HueyFreeman on Sep 25th, 2009 at 02:14 PM

Old Post Sep 25th, 2009 02:03 PM
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Shen-long
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I do not exactly remember where but I have read that Batman feels that its wrong to kill. however he is willing to do everything else. that includes beating someone to whithin an inch of their lives!!!!

also the Joker has become a veritable plot device. the kind of mindset one has these days while reading batman(well before his death) is "blame it on the Joker"mad
Some step has to be taken.Something like having Dick kill him and on his death , the emergence of his secretly hidden son who is just as twisted as him or something.eek!
Thing is once batman or dick or anyone he's tought crosses the line they won't be able to trust themselves with the mantle of the Bat anymore.


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Old Post Sep 25th, 2009 03:54 PM
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Deadline
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
the fact that batman cleared the joker of a crime he didn't commit...


He should have let him die and then caught the real culprit (if there was one). Now The Joker has killed even more people. One of Batman's policies is I dont have to help you but I wont kill you, he could ahve just decided to let him die.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Philosophía
His reasons for not incarcerating Joker is because he is not the law and what happens to him after he is apprehended is, like I and the scans I posted point out, none of his business. He is only there to help the system, not to become it. Period.

Saying that the reasons for Batman not becoming the judge, jury and executioner in a system separate from the current one, making his own prison and deeming sentences as he sees fit are 'laughable at best' shows a lack of knowledge on the character and logic.

Even moreso, you seem to miss the point that this is not just about Joker. Why stop there ? Two-Face. Zsasz. Random supervillain X. Is he dangerous to the society ? Check. Have they escaped many times and performed murderous deeds ? Check. Let's have Batman shove them all into the prison he builds outside of the system.

I should have stopped when I first told Srank that this is becoming too stupid to further pursue and it has become even stupider, funnily enough. So I will stop now.


Its a comicbook. Batman thinks that way because the writers need to create reasons to keep certain villains alive not because it makes any sense. Reality check.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by HueyFreeman
Lets not kid our selves. He breaks the law whenever it suits his need. Hes an obstruction as well albeit a good one. Hes not helping the law along, hes demonstrating why the system is ****ed up. His stance is hypocritical. Hes okay with breaking the law to instill fear in others but at the same time he feels hes not above the law? Please, what a load of horse shit. His stance has nothing to do with the law but his own set of morale. If he can hack classified information, break into buildings, commit assault on a daily bases than he does feel hes above the law otherwise he wouldn't you know "break the law"! You either accept the law or you don't. Theres no in-between. Also your wrong, I perfectly understand his character and his logic, I am saying his logic is stupid.


Exactly. Oh and apparently Batman thinks it ok to kill aliens...apparently.


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Last edited by Deadline on Sep 25th, 2009 at 03:59 PM

Old Post Sep 25th, 2009 03:56 PM
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Lek Kuen
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Phantom Zone




Exactly. Oh and apparently Batman thinks it ok to kill aliens...apparently.


I find that funny when characters that are against killing, kill aliens and other intellgent life sometimes


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Old Post Sep 25th, 2009 07:49 PM
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willRules
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The problem is that Batman is governed by a flawed sense of moral absolutism focus mainly around the belief that murder is wrong regardless of the circumstance, and Joker exists solely to challenge Batman's core belief structure. If Batman kills Joker - like Joker believes is necessary - then Joker wins. Killing the Joker proves his point, and so Batman can't kill the him or the Joker ultimately wins and Batman is destroyed. Since Batman's world is so black and white, if he kills the Joker, he becomes a villian in his own mind, and a villian can't be trusted to be Batman. The kicker of course is that in the end it is absolutely necessary...

Someone needs to kill Joker, it just can't be Batman.

EDIT: Batman needs therapy



That doesn't make Batman's sense of Moral absolutism flawed at all. In fact it means every time Batman has a chance to kill Joker but doesn't, it's Batman who wins.

When you ask yourself what truly makes Batman different from the Joker, the lines start to blur. They both are insane. They both dress up in eccentric outfits and go out committing acts that is frowned upon by society. What makes them different is their sense of morality. They are loonies on either side of the moral fence. Joker's always trying to prove murder works, whereas Batman is motivated by his parents deaths to prevent murder. Therefore every time Batman doesn't kill he proves his point to Joker. If he were to kill, like you say, Joker wins. But that's the entire point, Batman doesn't kill and so Joker doesn't win.

From a moral standpoint, anyone else Joker kills as a result is on the Joker's head, not Batman's. Batman does all he can by apprehension, hence the entertaining comics.


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Old Post Sep 27th, 2009 01:47 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by HueyFreeman
Lets not kid our selves. He breaks the law whenever it suits his need. Hes an obstruction as well albeit a good one. Hes not helping the law along, hes demonstrating why the system is ****ed up. His stance is hypocritical. Hes okay with breaking the law to instill fear in others but at the same time he feels hes not above the law? Please, what a load of horse shit. His stance has nothing to do with the law but his own set of morale. If he can hack classified information, break into buildings, commit assault on a daily bases than he does feel hes above the law otherwise he wouldn't you know "break the law"! You either accept the law or you don't. Theres no in-between. Also your wrong, I perfectly understand his character and his logic, I am saying his logic is stupid.


Agreed. That's the irony behind every hero/villain, which is only more obvious in the Punisher, because he actually kills.

For every single Superhero, if they were to ever lock up all their villains, would have to lastly commit themselves.


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Old Post Sep 27th, 2009 01:50 PM
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Deadline
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by willRules

From a moral standpoint, anyone else Joker kills as a result is on the Joker's head, not Batman's. Batman does all he can by apprehension, hence the entertaining comics.


Not at all Batman could have stopped the Joker from killing therefore hes responsible. 1 or 2 times or even several but Joker and Batman have done this 100s of times. Also Batman has no problem with killing other lifeforms.


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Old Post Sep 27th, 2009 01:51 PM
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