While Lucas gives many reasons for why Anakin would find the Dark Side appealing, the change still wasn't believable. The main reason why a Jedi or any being would leave the Jedi for the Sith is to gain more power for himself or herself. While it is believable that Anakin is a self-centered and selfish person when it came to those close with him like his mother and Padme, it is not believable for him to go over to the Dark Side because he has been manipulated by Palpatine into believe the Dark Side has this kind of power. Anakin's initial reaction to Palpatine being a Sith Lord and manipulating the war was more believable. His reaction to stop Windu from killing Palpatine was believable. His reaction to kill the Sand people is believable and does not make him a bad person overall.
But those who defend the films saying that there signs of him going to the Dark Side are forgetting Anakin's initial reaction to Palpatine revealing that he is a Sith Lord. Anakin trusted Palpatine because he believed he was serving the Republic and the Seperatists are the bad guys. When Palpatine reveals that he is not who he says he is, that means that Anakin himself has been manipulated by Palpatine and feels so. Therefore, why would he continue trusting him regarding anything else including all that talk about "Being able to save Padme from death"?
If Anakin was made out to be someone who wanted to control the Republic by going into politics one day, then his turn would be more believable. But he didn't seem particularly interested in politics and even his views expressed in Episode 2 regarding the inefficiency of democracy doesn't mean that he wants to rule the galaxy himself like Darth Vader in episode 4-5 wants to.
Yes, Anakin says in Episode 2 after his mother's death that he will even learn one day to stop people from dying so his interest in the power when he hears of it in Episode 3 is believable. But in my opinion, he would only be interested in that power, and not necessarily turn into a Sith to learn that power.
He was still a good person albeit immature and selfish, but people just don't turn bad like that. It's more like when someone reveals themselves as being bad, it's more like we weren't able to see how they were bad to begin with.
That is why Dooku turning Sith is way more believable than Anakin. Dooku was into politics and gaining more power whereas Anakin seemed more like an employee about to get fired because he was not able to sacrifice having a wife for the Jedi Order. His character and his circumstances suggested that he would be kicked out of the Jedi Order for what he was doing. Killing the younglings was not in his character. Those younglings did not harm Padme or his mother like the Tusken Sand people.
Bottom line is that Anakin wouldn't keep trusting Palpatine after learning the truth. He was young and naive, but I don't believe he was really that stupid. Selfish and arrogant, but not evil and wanting more power for himself.
That and the ridiculous build up to the conversion: finding out Palpy is a Sith, reprot him, want to come along to fight, go after Mace, kill Mace, feel sorry for the kill, join Palpy... Ridiculous.
And then saying immediately after Anakin's conversion: oh yeah, sorry, I can't save Padme from death but if we try really really hard, hey we might... ya never know...
Registered: Aug 2004
Location: McClane's Right one
I agree.
I guess Palpatine was covering his own ass, knowing that Padme would die and Anakin would blame himself.
(Which was helped along with the "It seems that in your anger, you killed her." bit.)
Anakin's move to stop Windu from killing Palpatine was impulse, i'm sure he didn't want windu to die but immediately after he was responsible and pretty much obligated to follow this path out of an impulse decision. Which all played out exactly as Palpatine wanted.
But I agree with the OP that going off to kill younglings in the next scene is a hell of a transition.
I never really understood his motivations for turning to begin with.
It seems there are two main reasons for turning 1) To gain power in the Dark Side in order to become powerful enough to save Padme and 2) because the Jedi tried to assassinate the Chancellor so they were trying to take over. Now the movie sets up both of them but things in the movie seems to contradict these.
Reason 1 is VERY confusing but here goes:
Ok. So we have Anakin who is scared to lose his wife because of a dream he had. Ok got it.
Next, Sidious tells him that an old Sith Lord knew how to stop people from dying because he was really "wise". Ok.
Next, Sidious tells him that he is a Sith Lord and Anakin gets pissed. Since, Anakin is on the side of the Republic here and hates the Separatists, (calling Grievous a monster) he now knows the true leader of the Separatists. Because: Dooku was the leader of the Separatists before he died. He was a Sith Lord. Sidous is also a Sith Lord. Ding.ding.ding. Sidious is the leader of the Separatists. A TRAITOR to the Republic.
Next, Anakin turns him in to Mace Windu, knowing that they will try to arrest him.
Mace is standing over Palpatine, and Palpatine says he has the [I]power[I] to save Padme.
Next, Anakin chooses to cut off Mace Windu's arm and saves Palpatine purely motivated by the idea of saving Padme.
Anakin feels bad and says "What have I done?" in horror of his actions. This tells us that he probably acted on impulse and didn't really want Mace Windu to die.
Palpatine has said that he had the "POWER" to save Padme, so its either some dark side knowledge Sidous knows, or he is powerful enough in the darkside to do it (power) or he is simply powerful enough period and the dark side is just a faster way to get power. Which is it? Who knows.
We don't know and Anakin doesn't know. But he has to believe its one of these yet we are never told which one.
Then immediately says "I'll do whatever you ask". I never understood why he said this for two reasons.
If he thinks its dark side knowledge:
1) Why doesn't he try to force Palps to talk about the way to save Padme right then and there. This guy is the most desperate guy in the galaxy, you would think that he would do anything to get Palps to talk immediately about this dark side knowledge since his wife is going to give birth in a few hours.
2) Why does he feel he needs to follow Palps orders?
Is he going to do Palpatine's bidding in exchange for the knowledge from Palps to save Padme?
Or
Maybe its a "power"? Anakin needs to become powerful in the dark side or powerful in general to be able to save people right?
But no, because Palpatine tells him the way to save someone is a 'secret' implying that its some kind of knowledge. Right?
But he also says that "if they work together they can discover the secret". Ok. Here is where one of the biggest flaws in his turn comes out. Palps just admitted that he doesn't know how to save Pame's life. Anakin has no reason to follow Sidious now. Only some vague promise that they will "discover the secret". Why would he trust Sidious in this aspect? Why? Where are they going to discover it from?? He isn't asking the questions that are appropriate to his goals. Yet he is ABSOLUTELY desperate to reach his goal of obtaining the ability to save Padme. It doesn't really make sense.
He then pledges himself or whatever. He is now a Sith Lord.
So the fact that Sidious is the leader of the Separatists completely goes over his head. He only cares about saving Padme. He could give a rats a** about any type of politics right now. However, he doesn't really have any loyalties to Sidous either since again he is just interested in saving Padme and could give a rats a** any loyalties to a Sith.
Then Sidious guesses that Anakin is the only one that knows Sidious is a Sith and Mace went to arrest him. Despite him having no idea that this is true and no matter how much it doesn't make sense that Mace wouldn't have told anyone else. (But since this is a movie where the plot rules over sense it happens). Note, since this is true, this also establishes that all the other Jedi knew nothing of the "assassination attempt" and thus were NOT accomplices to the act; this becomes important later.
Palpatine then claims that once the Jedi know what has happened they will kill both Vader and Sidious ok.
But then he claims that the Jedi are going to kill the Senators. WTH?? He just pulled this out of his ass. Why in the world would the Jedi kill the Senators? Why?? Why?? Why??
Then like a complete idiot Vader agrees. Again, why?? What reason would the Jedi have according to what Vader knows to kill the Senate? This just doesn't make sense, AT ALL. Also, why is Vader talking about the Jedi now? Wasn't he all worried about Padme just a second ago? and wanted to find out the ability to save her? Yes, right? So why isn't Vader asking question like: "What about saving Padme?", "Can we start 'discovering the secret now'?" "Yeah I don't care about the Jedi I just want to save Padme... Can you please teach me NOW since Padme is going to give birth in a few hours, PLEASE?!?" But no, what Vader is thinking about changes all of a sudden.
So Palpatine says they must kill all the Jedi now because he said so. And they are enemies of the Republic. Vader says he understands and agrees to killing all the Jedi. This makes no sense at all. 1) Sidous is a traitor to the republic as the leader of the seperatists 2) The Jedi have no reason to take over the Senate 3) Vader doesn't give a rats a** about who is an enemy of the Republic he just wants to save Padme. 4) They just discussed that none of the other Jedi knew what happened or that Sidious is a Sith Lord so they were not accomplices to anything. 5) He agrees so easily to kill the people he has known his whole life even Obi-Wan who is like a brother to him. WTH?!?
I could already hear people arguing that the Jedi tried to assassinate the Chancellor so it looked like they were taking over BUT due to 4) from above this doesn't make sense. Also 3) from above, Vader doesn't care about politics or the republic or anything besides saving Padme so it doesn't make sense he would care about a political reason to slaughter all the Jedi.
See here the shift has changed. Lucas has now introduced the the idea that the Jedi are the enemies of the Republic from nowhere and that Vader agrees and actually cares about it to kill them. So ultimately what Lucas gives is that Vader kills them not because he is evil but because of a political reason. This is so out of character to Vader right now and to the events that just happened like 2 minutes ago.
This is where the motivations of Vader are not made clear.
Did he turn to save Padme? But then why would he kill the Jedi? He could kill the Jedi because he is a Sith, but he wouldn't really care to kill Jedi immediately he would only care to save Padme right? The whole reason he turned for Padme is quickly forgotten. This makes no sense at all.
Palpatine then orders Vader to go to the Jedi temple and kill all the Jedi, catching them all off guard. Why would Vader do this? Who knows how long this could take and Padme gives birth in only a few hours. Why waste all this time killing Jedi for no reason instead of 'discovering the secret' to save Padme. Vader is a complete idiot for not ever questioning Sidious on this. Lucas completely fails at developing a character who has can think.
Sidious then tells him that he must show no mercy and only then will Vader become powerful enough to save Padme. Presumably because the more hate and anger he has the more powerful he will become. So is that the key to saving Padme; becoming powerful?? Wait, first it was a dark side knowledge by Plagueis, then it was a power by Sidoius, but then it was a secret (implying some type of unknown knowledge), but now its simply becoming 'powerful enough'? Sidious keeps changing the goals posts and Vader never questions this. Why?? Does Vader really want to save Padme?
So I guess Vader now has motivation to kill the Jedi so he can become more powerful right?
But, then Vader asks about all the other Jedi spread out across the galaxy, like if he personally wants all the Jedi dead. This isn't about gaining power, because killing them personally would take far too long and Padme gives birth shortly. So why does he point out these Jedi to Sidous? Does HE want all the Jedi dead? You would think that he would be doing this reluctantly and would feel sorry about it (*cough* Windu *cough) but he is almost eager to do it.
Then Sidous reveals that he knows where all the Separatists are (*cough* Traitor! *cough*). You would think that he would at least make up an excuse that he knows exactly where the enemy is but since Vader is a complete idiot nah no point.
He orders Vader to a far away planet and gives him two tasks. Padme is going to give birth in a few hours and he is wasting all this time killing everyone. What happened to 'discovering the secret'? Why doesn't he care about Padme anymore? Why does he care about politics all of a sudden? How and when does he plan to save Padme from dying? None of this makes sense.
Then after all of this, when Palpatine reveals that Padme has died (the entire reason (supposedly) why Anakin turned into Darth Vader, he just accepts it and moves on.
Remember, the ENTIRE POINT of the Prequel Trilogy was to show Vader's fall to the Dark Side. But we never know the real reason he turns and kills all the Jedi. And the movie is an incoherent mess that it only confuses the whole mess. Is George Lucas the worst writer or what?
Geez, that took forever, I am never going to write this much for something non-school related again.
Charlie
Last edited by Charlie512 on Dec 25th, 2011 at 02:00 PM
Charlie... you just summed up the most extensive list ever in showing how much Vader's turns sucks balls the size of Mars... I;ve argued this exact sequence like you did several times, just not so long winde..err... extensive ( j/k).
This is my main gripe with the PT. Especially with AOTC and ROTS: both screw up the main plot points that are the evry reason these movies exist. AOTC is about Anakin and PAdme falling in love and that is done in such a bad bad lousy crappy way... that that too sucks balls the size of Jupiter... And ROTS is about Anakin's fall... see Charlie's post above.
For those who think I'm a grumpy old geezer: I'd totally discard any movie for failing at its crucial plot points. But I am a fan, that doesn't mean I have to praise everything about it. Lucas as a writer and a director failed miserably at these plot points... and instead we get a lot of exposition about boring things.
I doubt Anakin ever really loved Padme, trying to choke her that quickly. I think Anakin only ever loved his mother and himself. At least, that's what his actions in the PT tell us.
Registered: Nov 2011
Location: In a galaxy far far away!
Are you serious??? The whole reason why he turned was because he loved Padme. He chocked her just because he got angry. He did it in his anger, but when he found out (incorrectly of course) that he killed her in his anger, he was really upset. That's why he shouted, "NOOOO". In AOTC, he even wanted to get off the ship @ a really incomveniant (sorry about spelling) time just to help her. You realy don't think he loved her?
But Luke was about to be struck down by Vader, Padme was unarmed and pregnant when he choked her?
Anakin doesn't show love for Padme, in the movie all he shows how he likes to have her by his side. He is not in the least bit interested in her needs. He does care a lot about his own needs: he breaks Jedi code to live with her (for his own satisfaction), he wants to be the bvest Jedi, he wants more, he wants Sith powers etc etc.
I know Anakin is supposed to love Padme, the script says he does, but frankly: I don't SEE it... It's a crucial element in the PT that just doesn't work.
Well, that's why he becomes the villain. Yes, he is selfish, and he is frustrated by it. Braty and whiney as he was in Episode II (and being frustrated with his own feelings), he is much more humble and admirable at the start of Episode III. This is a sure sign that he wants to be good, and in some cases, can be good. But his wants and desires for Padme and prestige overwhelm him. He can't help himself. He tries to be honorable and humble, but in the end he wants what he wants, and he is consumed by it.
Jan 4th, 2011 01:54 PM
j/k).
" ---- I totally agree 
