Did you notice that not one person here agreed with your assessment that TPM Kenobi > TPM Maul? Or that Kenobi cutting him was the most decisive victory between the 2?
Not one person here that I'm aware of agreed with you on that. Heck I doubt you'll even find anyone who puts TPM Kenobi above TPM Qui-Gon. So when your the only one arguing something you really should take time out to think about the argument your making, and at least consider the possibility that YOU'RE WRONG.
Over here I've not even said Yoda's Saber defeat over Sidious was not legitimate. I'm just pointing out here that I really wish you would stop using double standards. It's Ok for Kenobi to give ground, but if Sidious does it he's losing.
Or if Skywalker started out with help against Dooku, then his win over Dooku isn't entirely legitimate. Whilst when Kenobi gets aid from Qui-Gon for the majority of his fight against Maul(even requires his Saber for the finishing blow), then that's a completely legitimate one on one defeat.
Your making it sound as though no other Jedi/Saber Form is capable of going on the defense, only Kenobi.
I don't know if you noticed, but Mace Windu was on the defensive for the first 30 seconds of his fight against Sidious, and was also being driven back the entire time.
To even imply that Yoda and Sidious(who have both mastered every form), can not go on the defensive at times is beyond ridiculous.
Difference being Kenobi had plenty of room to give ground. Sidious did not.
Yes in that context on the Senate Pod.
Not to mention Lucas left the scene out entirely for the movie. Clearly he only wanted to show the Viewers a stalemate in the end.
And Sidious even the playing field by disarming Yoda too. So there was no advantage to Yoda in the end.
Hard to give Yoda the advantage when he ran away. On top of the fact that Tempest will give you plenty of sources which state Yoda simply could not overpower Sidious.
No I haven't forgotten that. Which is why I don't go around preaching that whenever someone runs, it means they lost or were losing in combat.
Although the difference here is that Sith Ultimately would rather not risk their lives. Whilst Jedi are willing to give their lives for the greater good.
Like I said, I've not even once said Yoda's Lightsaber defeat over Sidious was not legitimate, I'm just pointing out your double standards.
Last edited by Darth Thor on Sep 5th, 2013 at 10:45 AM
I literally havent' seen you make a good point the whole time I've been here. Before you would ride on the coattails of others i.e. Gideon... Lightsnake .. Zam.. Temp etc etc... Now you just don't bring anything to the table in the form of relevant points or good debating.
You haven't pointed out ONE double standard yet....
First things first.. point me to the post where I state TPM Kenobi is greater than maul? Find that quote please or concede I never said such a thing. What I am saying and what is factual and beyond a shadow of a doubt.. that Kenobi has the most decisive ending of a fight between the two. There is no getting around the fact that Maul was turned into a midget by Kenobi and maul has never ever come close to inflicting that kinda of damage on kenobi.
Next.... Point me to where I said Sids can't give ground in a fight... Show me where I said this? Or again concede I never made such a claim. Nobody is saying you can't give ground.. but when you give ground and get disarmed in the process from a furious attack from your foe.. you were disarmed. It doesn't matter if you need to drop it to recover.. the attack MADE you need to drop it to recover. Besides any notion that Yoda didn't disarm Sids is made non canon by Lucas script.
Again... If anakin MADE kenobi drop his saber with his attacks and disarm him I wouldn't say ohhh he just slip it wasn't a disarming.. BuT HE DIDN'T... Only the emperor was disarmed from a furious attack and going on the defensive.
I have no idea what your point is about running.. but again... concede I never said running means losing.. YOU brought up that point that if anybody lost it was Yoda because he ran. I never even brought up Sids trying to run FIRST until you brought it up. So again... I'm not sure the point you're making here unless it's trying to talk yourself inot not making dumb points.
I'm okay with calling that fight a stalemate.. but if anybody had the advantage and looked superior it was Yoda.. and there can be no debate about that.
He's the most powerful sith lord in history as early as TPM and AotC, but this doesn't necessarily put him above Yoda. Even if we reasonably conclude that his strength in the Force has grown since RotS, we are left clueless as to his skills with a lightsaber.
If you don't think TPM Kenobi > TPM Maul then I don't see why you keep bringing it up. Especially when you consistently bring it up to prove Kenobi > Maul.
Yeah no ones claiming Yoda didn't disarm Sidious. Just that IF they fought on even ground that MAY not have happened, because Sidious could give ground and defend himself, like Mace did in the first 30 seconds of his fight with Sidious.
Also lets not forget that Sidious also disarmed Yoda, which we actually see on screen.
So we agree that fleeing a fight doesn't necessarily prove anything about the actual one on one combat. That's fine
This is an endless debate. But most people agree they were pretty equal.
I'm referring to the platform that Sidious and Yoda were fighting on, which put Sidious at a disadvantage (not having much room to move/leap around in) and gave Yoda a greater advantage than he would have on even ground (plenty of room to leap around in and dodge a limited Sidious' blows, and being able to stand on the higher part which took away his disadvantage of height and reach), not how Sidious was disarmed in the script, although the script did help to back my point up. I'm not looking for that debate, it was years ago, but I'm more than sure you remember it, because you argued up and down that Yoda had a greater advantage against Dooku than he did against Sidious because he had a wall to leap from.
Also, when was I "bitching" about anyone being a better debater than myself? I said Arhael and Nai are better debaters than people like you, who are not so good. I was just stating a fact. No need to get so offensive.
@KT, and I literally can't make out what you type most of the time. I'm not one to pick on one's grammar too much because I'm not the best at it, but you don't even try. You type like you're drunk and tweeking at the same time. How you expect anyone to take you seriously is beyond me lol. And BTW, I don't ride anyone's coattail, and I rarely even communicated with Zamp or Lightsnake. In fact, Zamp and I didn't even get along and we disagreed more than we agreed. Me and Gideon agree on a lot, and him and I formed a friendship because of our similar views, and I go to him for help sometimes because he has access to more sources than I do. So stop talking out of your ass just because I stated a fact about you.
__________________ "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis
Also... Sids body was much worse off than it was in ROTS... His body over the years had been decaying more and more over the years. So clearly the vessel for Sids was better in ROTS and I think he was more fight ready than in ROTJ.. By ROTJ I don't even know how long it had been since he'd been in a real fight. It had been years and years. TO me ROTS Sids is more powerful.
Sucks you can't use it in a debate since canon is against your opinion.
By the way, the quote occurs in a book set shortly after ANH.
With a crackle of energy the image solidified before the scientist's eyes. It was only a hologram, but it was a hologram of the most powerful being the galaxy had ever known. It was the Emperor himself.
So he may have surpassed Yoda in the Force, assuming the narrator is moderately omniscient, and referring to Force power rather than political (which actually seems more likely in context). This doesn't necessarily put him above Yoda in a combative context.
But yeah, it's safe to say he doesn't clear this gauntlet, due to probability if nothing else. You know, the likelihood of his defeating every opponent is less than 1, so...
If I'm not mistaken, Tempest is referring to the argument that Sidious may not have dropped his Saber "from the fear of falling" if the fight was on even ground. That's the argument Arhael began, which you seem to have adopted since.
Let's get one thing straight shall we, I've never claimed Dooku is either Yoda or Sidious's equal. I used to say Dooku and Sidious may be relatively on par in a Pure Fencing Match Up Only, but I don't believe that anymore after the Maul/Opress fight.
Besides I probably only interjected when you say things like the difference between them is "MASSIVE" or "HUGE", which AOTC doesn't seem to show. You can make all the excuses you want for that, but fact is Dooku can put up a fight against Yoda, so probably can against Sidious as well.
Dooku is below them both, but the difference isn't as HUGE as you tend to make out.
You were bitching saying Arhael is another Nai who will never admit he's wrong. And you obviously thought he was wrong the majority of the time.
Oh stop being oversensitive. I just said stop bitching, it's not like your the epitome of how a debator should be around here.