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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Star Wars Versus Forum » The Greatest Foe the darkness had ever known...


The Greatest Foe the darkness had ever known...
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Darth Thor
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Why are you constantly wrong on things DP and yet try and argue them is beyond me. I like you buddy, but sometimes it gets tiring correcting you all the time.


I'm feeling the same way about you.

Did you notice that not one person here agreed with your assessment that TPM Kenobi > TPM Maul? Or that Kenobi cutting him was the most decisive victory between the 2?

Not one person here that I'm aware of agreed with you on that. Heck I doubt you'll even find anyone who puts TPM Kenobi above TPM Qui-Gon. So when your the only one arguing something you really should take time out to think about the argument your making, and at least consider the possibility that YOU'RE WRONG.

Over here I've not even said Yoda's Saber defeat over Sidious was not legitimate. I'm just pointing out here that I really wish you would stop using double standards. It's Ok for Kenobi to give ground, but if Sidious does it he's losing.

Or if Skywalker started out with help against Dooku, then his win over Dooku isn't entirely legitimate. Whilst when Kenobi gets aid from Qui-Gon for the majority of his fight against Maul(even requires his Saber for the finishing blow), then that's a completely legitimate one on one defeat.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
1. The key difference being that it's kenobi STYLE to fight on the defensive.. which somtimes means giving ground wnen needed. This is in stark contrast to how Palps fights. Thus, Kenobi giving ground isn't the same as Palps or Yoda giving ground.


Your making it sound as though no other Jedi/Saber Form is capable of going on the defense, only Kenobi.

I don't know if you noticed, but Mace Windu was on the defensive for the first 30 seconds of his fight against Sidious, and was also being driven back the entire time.

To even imply that Yoda and Sidious(who have both mastered every form), can not go on the defensive at times is beyond ridiculous.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
2. If Anakin had disarmed Kenobi from his aggressive attacks.. I wouldn't say Kenobi just dropped his saber because of uneven ground. I would say the EXACT same thing I'm saying here... Anakin FORCED kenobi to drop his saber from his attack. JUST LIKE Yoda FORCED Palps to drop his weapon from his attack.



Difference being Kenobi had plenty of room to give ground. Sidious did not.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
3. To say nothing of the fact that Lucas says explicitly that yoda DISARMS Palps... anything in the novel sayign otherwise is non canon.


Yes in that context on the Senate Pod.

Not to mention Lucas left the scene out entirely for the movie. Clearly he only wanted to show the Viewers a stalemate in the end.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Next correction...

1. He didn't make the whole fight a stalemate actually.. He actually notes in his script that Yoda was gaining the upper hand and the emperor seems doomed. He even shows Yoda buckling down and getting serious and overpowering the emperor's lighting. Lucas also notes that Yoda disarms Sids in saber combat. So yes, while in the end it was a stalemate and I'm okay with calling it that... if anybody had the advantage and won it was Yoda not Sids


And Sidious even the playing field by disarming Yoda too. So there was no advantage to Yoda in the end.

Hard to give Yoda the advantage when he ran away. On top of the fact that Tempest will give you plenty of sources which state Yoda simply could not overpower Sidious.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
2. Did you forget that when both FRESH and ready to go Sids tried to run from Yoda FIRST... "if so powerful you are.. why run" Yoda only left after AFTER what... a 5 story drop after a long fight? Huge difference. To say nothing of the fact that Sids wanted Yoda dead... he tried to kill Yoda first in fact with his executive order to kill the Jedi... So Sids didn't jump down there to get the job done either.. He left himself and called for help... So let's act like yoda leaving means the lost... Sids tried to leave first when both were fresh and also didn't try and pursue yoda and kill him like he wanted and intented.


No I haven't forgotten that. Which is why I don't go around preaching that whenever someone runs, it means they lost or were losing in combat.

Although the difference here is that Sith Ultimately would rather not risk their lives. Whilst Jedi are willing to give their lives for the greater good.

Like I said, I've not even once said Yoda's Lightsaber defeat over Sidious was not legitimate, I'm just pointing out your double standards.

Last edited by Darth Thor on Sep 5th, 2013 at 10:45 AM

Old Post Sep 5th, 2013 10:32 AM
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Lord Stark
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Zett
Agree here.



Also agree.

But i don't think, that Sidious has any advantage over Yoda in the force. They are perfectly equal imo.

And my question: is ROTJ Sidious stronger then ROTS Sidious?



ROTJ Sidious should be stronger than his ROTS incarnation. His force powers are likely more potent. That being said his lightsaber skills have likely declined


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Old Post Sep 5th, 2013 02:29 PM
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KuRuPT Thanosi
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I argued that in a debate with DP I believe before Arhael was even a member here. A debate in which DP argued that Yoda actually had a better advantage during his duel with Dooku on Geonosis because Yoda had a wall to leap on or something retarded like that. lol. Now, it might be possible that DP may have been convinced after Arhael argued the same thing, seeing how he was the ONLY one convinced by Arhael's argument that one doesn't limit himself when trying not to kill.

And I don't miss Arhael. He was like another Nai; they both never admitted when they were wrong. I mean, they both made good points sometimes and are far better debaters than the likes of LeGenD, DP, KT and your idiotic "lawyer" friend, I'll admit that, but not people I miss.


I literally havent' seen you make a good point the whole time I've been here. Before you would ride on the coattails of others i.e. Gideon... Lightsnake .. Zam.. Temp etc etc... Now you just don't bring anything to the table in the form of relevant points or good debating.

Old Post Sep 5th, 2013 03:51 PM
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KuRuPT Thanosi
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'm feeling the same way about you.

Did you notice that not one person here agreed with your assessment that TPM Kenobi > TPM Maul? Or that Kenobi cutting him was the most decisive victory between the 2?

Not one person here that I'm aware of agreed with you on that. Heck I doubt you'll even find anyone who puts TPM Kenobi above TPM Qui-Gon. So when your the only one arguing something you really should take time out to think about the argument your making, and at least consider the possibility that YOU'RE WRONG.

Over here I've not even said Yoda's Saber defeat over Sidious was not legitimate. I'm just pointing out here that I really wish you would stop using double standards. It's Ok for Kenobi to give ground, but if Sidious does it he's losing.

Or if Skywalker started out with help against Dooku, then his win over Dooku isn't entirely legitimate. Whilst when Kenobi gets aid from Qui-Gon for the majority of his fight against Maul(even requires his Saber for the finishing blow), then that's a completely legitimate one on one defeat.



Your making it sound as though no other Jedi/Saber Form is capable of going on the defense, only Kenobi.

I don't know if you noticed, but Mace Windu was on the defensive for the first 30 seconds of his fight against Sidious, and was also being driven back the entire time.

To even imply that Yoda and Sidious(who have both mastered every form), can not go on the defensive at times is beyond ridiculous.





Difference being Kenobi had plenty of room to give ground. Sidious did not.



Yes in that context on the Senate Pod.

Not to mention Lucas left the scene out entirely for the movie. Clearly he only wanted to show the Viewers a stalemate in the end.



And Sidious even the playing field by disarming Yoda too. So there was no advantage to Yoda in the end.

Hard to give Yoda the advantage when he ran away. On top of the fact that Tempest will give you plenty of sources which state Yoda simply could not overpower Sidious.



No I haven't forgotten that. Which is why I don't go around preaching that whenever someone runs, it means they lost or were losing in combat.

Although the difference here is that Sith Ultimately would rather not risk their lives. Whilst Jedi are willing to give their lives for the greater good.

Like I said, I've not even once said Yoda's Lightsaber defeat over Sidious was not legitimate, I'm just pointing out your double standards.


You haven't pointed out ONE double standard yet....

First things first.. point me to the post where I state TPM Kenobi is greater than maul? Find that quote please or concede I never said such a thing. What I am saying and what is factual and beyond a shadow of a doubt.. that Kenobi has the most decisive ending of a fight between the two. There is no getting around the fact that Maul was turned into a midget by Kenobi and maul has never ever come close to inflicting that kinda of damage on kenobi.

Next.... Point me to where I said Sids can't give ground in a fight... Show me where I said this? Or again concede I never made such a claim. Nobody is saying you can't give ground.. but when you give ground and get disarmed in the process from a furious attack from your foe.. you were disarmed. It doesn't matter if you need to drop it to recover.. the attack MADE you need to drop it to recover. Besides any notion that Yoda didn't disarm Sids is made non canon by Lucas script.

Again... If anakin MADE kenobi drop his saber with his attacks and disarm him I wouldn't say ohhh he just slip it wasn't a disarming.. BuT HE DIDN'T... Only the emperor was disarmed from a furious attack and going on the defensive.

I have no idea what your point is about running.. but again... concede I never said running means losing.. YOU brought up that point that if anybody lost it was Yoda because he ran. I never even brought up Sids trying to run FIRST until you brought it up. So again... I'm not sure the point you're making here unless it's trying to talk yourself inot not making dumb points.

I'm okay with calling that fight a stalemate.. but if anybody had the advantage and looked superior it was Yoda.. and there can be no debate about that.

Old Post Sep 5th, 2013 04:02 PM
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Intrepid37
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RotJ Sidious is, per a source of which I've forgotten its name, the most powerful being ever. Yoda goes down in a close fight.


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Old Post Sep 5th, 2013 05:19 PM
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Darth Thor
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I literally havent' seen you make a good point the whole time I've been here.




thumb up


Finally we are in agreement KT! laughing out loud

Old Post Sep 5th, 2013 05:21 PM
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Master Han
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Intrepid37
RotJ Sidious is, per a source of which I've forgotten its name, the most powerful being ever.


He's the most powerful sith lord in history as early as TPM and AotC, but this doesn't necessarily put him above Yoda. Even if we reasonably conclude that his strength in the Force has grown since RotS, we are left clueless as to his skills with a lightsaber.

Old Post Sep 5th, 2013 05:21 PM
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Intrepid37
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I'm well aware of his status as the most powerful Sith. But the source mentions ''being'', which would include Yoda.


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Old Post Sep 5th, 2013 05:23 PM
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Master Han
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Does it really? I highly doubt that.

Old Post Sep 5th, 2013 05:24 PM
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Nephthys
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Smells like bullshit. He's certainly not more powerful than the Ones, Lotek'k, the World Razer, the Celestials and Darth Bandon.


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Old Post Sep 5th, 2013 05:25 PM
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Darth Thor
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi


First things first.. point me to the post where I state TPM Kenobi is greater than maul? Find that quote please or concede I never said such a thing. What I am saying and what is factual and beyond a shadow of a doubt.. that Kenobi has the most decisive ending of a fight between the two. There is no getting around the fact that Maul was turned into a midget by Kenobi and maul has never ever come close to inflicting that kinda of damage on kenobi.


If you don't think TPM Kenobi > TPM Maul then I don't see why you keep bringing it up. Especially when you consistently bring it up to prove Kenobi > Maul.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Next.... Point me to where I said Sids can't give ground in a fight... Show me where I said this? Or again concede I never made such a claim. Nobody is saying you can't give ground.. but when you give ground and get disarmed in the process from a furious attack from your foe.. you were disarmed. It doesn't matter if you need to drop it to recover.. the attack MADE you need to drop it to recover. Besides any notion that Yoda didn't disarm Sids is made non canon by Lucas script.


Yeah no ones claiming Yoda didn't disarm Sidious. Just that IF they fought on even ground that MAY not have happened, because Sidious could give ground and defend himself, like Mace did in the first 30 seconds of his fight with Sidious.

Also lets not forget that Sidious also disarmed Yoda, which we actually see on screen.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I have no idea what your point is about running.. but again... concede I never said running means losing.. YOU brought up that point that if anybody lost it was Yoda because he ran. I never even brought up Sids trying to run FIRST until you brought it up. So again... I'm not sure the point you're making here unless it's trying to talk yourself inot not making dumb points.


So we agree that fleeing a fight doesn't necessarily prove anything about the actual one on one combat. That's fine thumb up

quote: (post)
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I'm okay with calling that fight a stalemate.. but if anybody had the advantage and looked superior it was Yoda.. and there can be no debate about that.


This is an endless debate. But most people agree they were pretty equal.

Old Post Sep 5th, 2013 05:27 PM
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SIDIOUS 66
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Show me that thread.

Arhael came up with that argument when I showed him what it said in the ROTS script. And I never once saw you use that argument until he kept posting it.

But to be fair, yes your right, if that argument was just coming from you I probably would have ignored it.

And yes Yoda will be able to fight at his best when he can bounce around due to his style. Not that Dooku wasn't fighting at his best.

And stop bitching about people who were clearly better debators than you. I don't exactly remember the last time you admitted you were wrong either, even when the evidence is clearly piling up against you.



I'm referring to the platform that Sidious and Yoda were fighting on, which put Sidious at a disadvantage (not having much room to move/leap around in) and gave Yoda a greater advantage than he would have on even ground (plenty of room to leap around in and dodge a limited Sidious' blows, and being able to stand on the higher part which took away his disadvantage of height and reach), not how Sidious was disarmed in the script, although the script did help to back my point up. I'm not looking for that debate, it was years ago, but I'm more than sure you remember it, because you argued up and down that Yoda had a greater advantage against Dooku than he did against Sidious because he had a wall to leap from.

Also, when was I "bitching" about anyone being a better debater than myself? I said Arhael and Nai are better debaters than people like you, who are not so good. I was just stating a fact. No need to get so offensive.

@KT, and I literally can't make out what you type most of the time. I'm not one to pick on one's grammar too much because I'm not the best at it, but you don't even try. You type like you're drunk and tweeking at the same time. How you expect anyone to take you seriously is beyond me lol. And BTW, I don't ride anyone's coattail, and I rarely even communicated with Zamp or Lightsnake. In fact, Zamp and I didn't even get along and we disagreed more than we agreed. Me and Gideon agree on a lot, and him and I formed a friendship because of our similar views, and I go to him for help sometimes because he has access to more sources than I do. So stop talking out of your ass just because I stated a fact about you.


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Old Post Sep 5th, 2013 05:28 PM
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Intrepid37
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neph u forgot bane!


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Old Post Sep 5th, 2013 05:28 PM
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KuRuPT Thanosi
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I don't buy that quote for one second.

Also... Sids body was much worse off than it was in ROTS... His body over the years had been decaying more and more over the years. So clearly the vessel for Sids was better in ROTS and I think he was more fight ready than in ROTJ.. By ROTJ I don't even know how long it had been since he'd been in a real fight. It had been years and years. TO me ROTS Sids is more powerful.

Old Post Sep 5th, 2013 05:29 PM
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Lord Stark
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Intrepid37
I'm well aware of his status as the most powerful Sith. But the source mentions ''being'', which would include Yoda.


Does it say most powerful being in the galaxy or in history? Because at the time I'd of course put ROTJ Sidious over ROTJ Yoda who was literally on his death bed.


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Old Post Sep 5th, 2013 05:32 PM
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Intrepid37
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Sucks you can't use it in a debate since canon is against your opinion.

By the way, the quote occurs in a book set shortly after ANH.

With a crackle of energy the image solidified before the scientist's eyes. It was only a hologram, but it was a hologram of the most powerful being the galaxy had ever known. It was the Emperor himself.

-Galaxy of Fear: Planet Plague


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Old Post Sep 5th, 2013 05:32 PM
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Master Han
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So he may have surpassed Yoda in the Force, assuming the narrator is moderately omniscient, and referring to Force power rather than political (which actually seems more likely in context). This doesn't necessarily put him above Yoda in a combative context.

But yeah, it's safe to say he doesn't clear this gauntlet, due to probability if nothing else. You know, the likelihood of his defeating every opponent is less than 1, so...

Old Post Sep 5th, 2013 05:35 PM
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Nephthys
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sucks you can't use it in a debate since canon is against your opinion.

By the way, the quote occurs in a book set shortly after ANH.

With a crackle of energy the image solidified before the scientist's eyes. It was only a hologram, but it was a hologram of the most powerful being the galaxy had ever known. It was the Emperor himself.

-Galaxy of Fear: Planet Plague


Political power.

Also likely third person limited point of view.


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Old Post Sep 5th, 2013 05:40 PM
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Darth Thor
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I'm referring to the platform that Sidious and Yoda were fighting on, which put Sidious at a disadvantage (not having much room to move/leap around in) and gave Yoda a greater advantage than he would have on even ground (plenty of room to leap around in and dodge a limited Sidious' blows, and being able to stand on the higher part which took away his disadvantage of height and reach), not how Sidious was disarmed in the script, although the script did help to back my point up. I'm not looking for that debate, it was years ago, but I'm more than sure you remember it, because you argued up and down that Yoda had a greater advantage against Dooku than he did against Sidious because he had a wall to leap from.


If I'm not mistaken, Tempest is referring to the argument that Sidious may not have dropped his Saber "from the fear of falling" if the fight was on even ground. That's the argument Arhael began, which you seem to have adopted since.

Let's get one thing straight shall we, I've never claimed Dooku is either Yoda or Sidious's equal. I used to say Dooku and Sidious may be relatively on par in a Pure Fencing Match Up Only, but I don't believe that anymore after the Maul/Opress fight.

Besides I probably only interjected when you say things like the difference between them is "MASSIVE" or "HUGE", which AOTC doesn't seem to show. You can make all the excuses you want for that, but fact is Dooku can put up a fight against Yoda, so probably can against Sidious as well.

Dooku is below them both, but the difference isn't as HUGE as you tend to make out.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Also, when was I "bitching" about anyone being a better debater than myself? I said Arhael and Nai are better debaters than people like you, who are not so good. I was just stating a fact. No need to get so offensive.


You were bitching saying Arhael is another Nai who will never admit he's wrong. And you obviously thought he was wrong the majority of the time.

Oh stop being oversensitive. I just said stop bitching, it's not like your the epitome of how a debator should be around here.

Old Post Sep 5th, 2013 05:44 PM
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Intrepid37
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Hardly. The following text notes how powerful the scientific were, but that the Emperor could snuff him out with a ''thought''.


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Old Post Sep 5th, 2013 05:44 PM
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