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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Tulak Hord--How powerful is he, really?


Tulak Hord--How powerful is he, really?
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NewGuy01
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Tulak Hord--How powerful is he, really?

So there seems to be a bit of contraversy and disagreement on how powerful Mr.Hord is, as I'm intending to find an answer to this question myself.

So this thread is basically to debate how powerful he actually was.

Last edited by NewGuy01 on Oct 21st, 2013 at 03:28 AM

Old Post Oct 21st, 2013 03:18 AM
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Q99
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Unknown. He's very much a character described largely in legend in not-entirely-reliable ways.


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Old Post Oct 21st, 2013 03:34 AM
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NewGuy01
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I dunno. Out of all the ancient Sith, the one you hear about the most is Tulak Hord during SWTOR. He seems like he was pretty damn influential, more so than even Marka Ragnos.

However, canonically he's less powerful than Exar Kun.

Old Post Oct 21st, 2013 03:37 AM
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Q99
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Yea, but we've also never even heard of him *outside* of SWTOR, and TOR is, after all, mainly his legend being talked about. Only the one unfrozen dude knew him.


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Old Post Oct 21st, 2013 06:59 AM
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Nephthys
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I'll just post the collective info on him Nai and myself compiled:

On the issue of Tulak Hord

"In his time as Dark Lord of the Sith, Tulak Hord was known as a master of the mystical dark arts of the Force, using his powers to plumb the depths of life and death. In the battles of Yn and Chabosh, Tulak Hord is believed to have used a ritual to draw the strength of his enemies to himself, growing his power and vitality." - SW:ToR, Codex Entry, The Ritual of Tulak Hord (Sith Inquisitor).

Which is, kind of, confirmed by the following:

Three hundred years after Tulak Hord, the Sith Ergast tried to recreate the ritual the Dark Lord used to devour the spirits of his enemies at Yn and Chabosh. In its place, he discovered what he called the ritual of Force-walking. Requiring a Sith of great strength of will, the ritual of Force-walking allows the user to bind the restless ghosts of dead Sith to himself. Once the ghosts are bound, the ritualist may draw from their power, channeling it into a powerful exertion of Force energy against his enemies." - SW:ToR, Codex Entry, Force-Walking (Sith Inquisitor)

"Lord of Hate, Master of the Gathering Darkness and Dark Lord of the Sith. These are but a few of the titles worn by the great Tulak Hord. His command of the dark side and mastery of lightsaber techniques won Hord many battles, and each victory earned him enemies abroad and within the Sith ranks. Of the many who challenged his might, none were successful. [...] Imperial historians believe the worlds conquered by Hord number in the hundreds, but any records from his bygone era were lost in the Great Hyperspace War." - SW:ToR, Codex Entry, Tomb of Tulak Hord.

"Incidents of Sith Lords imbuing their most precious possessions with some fragment of their dark power appear throughout Sith history. Such ritual imbuement can be used to inflict all manner of trouble on those who would steal these terrible treasures. The Dark Lord of the Sith Tulak Hord was especially known for this practice, and many possessions of Tulak Hordís have driven their discoverers to madness throughout the years. Tulakís Madness is unique in who it affects, however; ignoring whether a personís spirit is dark or light, it afflicts only the weak-willed, driving them to delusions of grandeur and eventual self-destruction." - SW:ToR, Codex Entry, Tulak Hord's Madness.


And of course, there is Hord's friendly servant Khem Val, whose character description looks like that:

"Powerful, cunning and ruthless enough to slay even the strongest Force users, Khem Val was trained as an elite assassin. After emerging from his long slumber, the Dashade is the very embodiment of death and destruction; a reminder that there are things even Sith and Jedi must fear."- SW:ToR, Codex Entry, Khem Val (Sith Inquisitor)

Tulak Hord kicked Khems ass btw.

"This was the tomb of Tulak Hord, the greatest lightsaber duelist of the Sith Lords. His skill was considered remarkable even for his time, when many true lightsaber masters lived. If you were to face an ancient Sith Lord in combat, you would learn that we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old masters." - Kreia, KotOR.

"The great Tulak Hord once pulled a ship this size from the sky." - Khem Val, SW:TOR, upon seeing the ruins of the Endar Spire (300 meters).

"I have not felt this full since the battles of Yn and Chabosh, when Veshik Urk and I followed our masters into war and feasted upon armies of Jedi. It was in the days before Tulak Hord was the Dark Lord of the Sith. On Yn, the Jedi had laid siege to an imperial stronghold. Tulak Hord broke the siege singlehandedly. And then he pressed forward to Jedi-held Chabosh, leaving nothing but Jedi blood in his wake. I never lacked Force energy to feed on in those days." - Khem Val, SW:TOR.

"Under Tulak Hords command, Khem Val devoured the life energy from thousands of Jedi in ancient battles waged on the planets of Yn and Chabosh. One of Khem Val's proudest victories came during the Battle of Chabosh, where he fought by Tulak Hords side to conquer an army of Jedi 1,000 strong." - SWTORE.


Devoured over a thousand Jedi at the battles of Yn and Chabosh. - Khem Val's holonet profile.

So yeah, there were "thousands" of Jedi in the battles of Yn and Chabosh and the battle of Chabosh featured an army 1000 strong. Therefore in order for there to have been thousands of Jedi it stands that the army at Yn was at least a thousand strong as well.

"Tulak Hord-a mighty Sith Lord with legendary lightsaber skills." - SWTORE.


I know you've seen this before but I think its a good idea just to post it all here. I think its rather obvious that Hord is immensely powerful. You don't collect accolades like this without backing it up with legitimate power.

He possessed legendary lightsaber skills and was the best duelist of his era, he was a master sorcerer who ate the spirits of his numerous foes and created powerful artifacts, he was an immense telekineticist for he threw a capital ship down out of the sky and he was an unparallelled warrior who slew entire armies of Jedi by himself.

Thats how powerful he was, imo.


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Last edited by Nephthys on Oct 21st, 2013 at 12:06 PM

Old Post Oct 21st, 2013 12:01 PM
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Q99
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There is the matter than his Jedi feat happened at a time when the Sith Empire was out of contact with the Jedi...

Sloppy writing, putting in major inconsistencies.


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Old Post Oct 21st, 2013 12:17 PM
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SJones91109
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I've made this point many times. I'm not sure how the writers can so blatantly disregard long standing canon. The jedi and the sith never met each other until the Great Hyperspace War.

Old Post Oct 21st, 2013 03:46 PM
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Q99
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Yea, unless one counts the exiles and some of their immediate descendants themselves as 'Jedi' rather than Jedi proper.


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Old Post Oct 21st, 2013 08:55 PM
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Nephthys
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I guess its just been retconned. I might poke around and see if this has ever been explained by the TOR staff.


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Old Post Oct 21st, 2013 09:01 PM
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Stealth Moose
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Hord's lightsaber mastery was always a big issue, since he did not fit into the canon at the time. But then again, KotOR screwed up a lot of established canon. It takes place like 40 some years after The Sith Wars, yet everything looks different and none of the characters from that earlier property even make a live appearance.


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Old Post Oct 21st, 2013 09:18 PM
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NewGuy01
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From what I've gathered, I'd say Tulak Hord is a pretty damn formiddable lightsaber duelist, pretty beastly with TK (Though I'd assume the ship he pulled from the sky wasn't as big as Khem claimed it would be.), and his ritualistic powers are very impressive, and it's possible he could Force Walk like Nox for an external energy source. On top of this ,he seems to have knowledge of powers of madness. Which means Force Illusionsssssssss

So I'd say he's an edge below Exar Kun. I wonder if he could take down Vader or Dooku.

Old Post Oct 21st, 2013 09:53 PM
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Stealth Moose
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NewGuy01
From what I've gathered, I'd say Tulak Hord is a pretty damn formiddable lightsaber duelist, pretty beastly with TK (Though I'd assume the ship he pulled from the sky wasn't as big as Khem claimed it would be.), and his ritualistic powers are very impressive, and it's possible he could Force Walk like Nox for an external energy source. On top of this ,he seems to have knowledge of powers of madness. Which means Force Illusionsssssssss

So I'd say he's an edge below Exar Kun. I wonder if he could take down Vader or Dooku.


If Tulak Hord can do all this, be an unparalleled saber duelist, and break a Jedi line of a thousand strong with his elite mook Khem, I don't see how Vader or Dooku could be superior. They've done nothing similar.


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Old Post Oct 21st, 2013 09:59 PM
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Q99
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Hord's lightsaber mastery was always a big issue, since he did not fit into the canon at the time. But then again, KotOR screwed up a lot of established canon. It takes place like 40 some years after The Sith Wars, yet everything looks different and none of the characters from that earlier property even make a live appearance.


There's also the matter that they take a fairly high-end view of force powers. Not as much as TFU, but a lot of flash. Obsidian especially, with their desire to cram so many legendary-strong force users all mysteriously at the same time plus throw in new unmentioned legends at the same time.

If Bioware or Obsidian did CW era stuff or Legacy or what have you, you can be sure all the major force users would be a lot more flashy too.


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Last edited by Q99 on Oct 21st, 2013 at 11:57 PM

Old Post Oct 21st, 2013 11:55 PM
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The_Tempest
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Q99
There's also the matter that they take a fairly high-end view of force powers. Not as much as TFU, but a lot of flash. Obsidian especially, with their desire to cram so many legendary-strong force users all mysteriously at the same time plus throw in new unmentioned legends at the same time.

If Bioware or Obsidian did CW era stuff or Legacy or what have you, you can be sure all the major force users would be a lot more flashy too.


thumb up

Stylistic variation and creative interpretation always play a role; harkens back to the infamous "foggy window" doctrine as espoused by Christopher Cerasi that ares834 reintroduced today.

Creative liberties are taken within and across any era. Look at the visual media: we see an evolution of lightsaber combat and Force powers across the movies and the TV series. In the OT, the fighters were portrayed as methodical, pragmatic, and without flash. In the PT, they were acrobatic and agile. And in TCW, it takes an even greater leap. Compare Sidious's acrobatics in TCW to those in his duel against Mace or even Yoda. It's no contest.

Certain authors are known for a grandiose interpretation of the Force and its users (Karpyshyn, Stover, Williams, etc.) and others less so (Luceno, Zahn, Traviss, etc.).

Just playing with feat wars is absolutely silly.

Old Post Oct 22nd, 2013 01:00 AM
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Stealth Moose
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So let me nail down your stance:

1. Because "foggy window", PT Jedi are much better than they appear in the only media in which they appear, and anything superior outside of their era is clearly just stylistic overdoing it on the part of the creators.

2. When I hear hoofbeats, I immediately think of Robot Zombie Jesus riding a Unicorn with Fire coming out of its Arse.

Alright, sounds like a valid and not at all contrived stance that in no way reaffirms your bias while cleverly selecting against any media which threatens it.


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Last edited by Stealth Moose on Oct 22nd, 2013 at 06:33 AM

Old Post Oct 22nd, 2013 06:22 AM
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Q99
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
So let me nail down your stance:

1. Because "foggy window", PT Jedi are much better than they appear in the only media in which they appear, and anything superior outside of their era is clearly just stylistic overdoing it on the part of the creators.


No, there's stylistic power in the PT too. Both TCW animated, and several PT Jedi in TFU.



And there's the matter that we have a lot of canon statements naming late-era Sith/Jedi as some of the strongest ever even with uber feats being a dime a dozen during the TOR era, and also stuff like the level of Jedi and Sith suddenly jumping from, say, the TOR prelude comics, wherein the likes of the Jedi Grand Master of the time and Vitiate's personal apprentice being portrayed in a more PT like manner, to the game itself, where just a few years later everyone's more flashy.



At the very least, that's an argument for flashy/big feats not necessarily translating to overall power in the force.


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Old Post Oct 22nd, 2013 07:08 AM
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The_Tempest
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
1. Because "foggy window", PT Jedi are much better than they appear in the only media in which they appear, and anything superior outside of their era is clearly just stylistic overdoing it on the part of the creators.


(please log in to view the image)


In lieu of a thoughtful, intelligent response, you could have just posted this very appropriate .gif and saved yourself the effort of cobbling words together. I think it captures the essence of your objections quite well!

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Alright, sounds like a valid and not at all contrived stance that in no way reaffirms your bias while cleverly selecting against any media which threatens it.


Well, if we're not going to consider stylistic variations, creative differences, or general out-of-universe context that might possibly explain a poor performance by a character despite enormous hype and accolade attributed to him or her...



(please log in to view the image)


Then much, if not all, of Vitiate's standing goes swirling down the shitter.

Old Post Oct 22nd, 2013 11:24 AM
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Nephthys
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Vitiate was weakened, exhausted and possibly wounded judging by how he's holding his side Temp.


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Old Post Oct 22nd, 2013 11:29 AM
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The_Tempest
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiate was weakened, exhausted and possibly wounded judging by how he's holding his side Temp.


You are exhibiting the second case of TOR-induced schizophrenia; Patient Zero (Beefy) seems to be recovering well enough so I have hope for you as well.

But, to quote some insightful guy from another thread:

quote:
Insightful Guy
Many arguments have been had over this feat but I feel I've done a good job of arguing why A) it was indeed the Emperor the Hero fought and not his Voice (SWTORE even has pictures of the fight, calling him 'The Emperor' both times) and B) That the two would have been in rather similar conditions. Vitiate was highly weakened by his failed ritual, but Scourge claims that 'he will recover swiftly' and he was on an extremely powerful dark side nexus in the form of the Dark Temple (which may amp him even more than regularly since his power is tied to the spirits there and he's draining them). Furthermore the Hero has the chance to go to save their love interest shortly before fight, an effort which as Vitiate describes 'dissipated your energy' and gives Vitiate even more time to recover. Which he demonstrates by using additional Force powers in the cutscene if you chose to save them than he does if you did not. And as I have explained above, the Hero did not have an easy trip to get to the Emperor either, fighting through incredibly tough defenses and troops to get to him.


So this is the best defense that Vitiate, who is allegedly the baddest motherfvcker of all and who happens to be standing in the midst of an extraordinarily powerful dark side nexus which happens to stand in the heart of a city on a planet that "bristles" with dark side energy, can conjure?

Under the Moose's paradigm, this is pretty damning.

Old Post Oct 22nd, 2013 11:41 AM
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SJones91109
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You're right. If we ignore that you're fighting a weakened Emperor's Voice.

Old Post Oct 22nd, 2013 11:51 AM
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