Total Spent Time for Response: 112 minutes (please log in to view the image)
Firstly you make the claim Darth Zannah and Darth Bane has access to all of Revan's knowledge. Revan created his Sith Holocron in 3959 BBY on the Unknown World. The holocron was made as a replica of the Temple of Ancients, and was placed in the Temple of Ancients. Revan only visited this area *once* according to both Rakata tribes, which was when they first arrived on the Unknown World to claim the Star Forge. Revan was never seen again by either tribes until he comes directly before his Star Forge battle. However, they do state they occasionally see Darth Malak and ther Dark Jedi go in-and-out of the Temple, so they do look for incomers, especially when their camps is right next to the Temple of Ancients. The below quotes support this. Darth Revan would have had to of created the Sith holocron in this select time then. Because of this might also be why it was flawed.
"Slightly larger than his fist, it had the shape of a four-sided pyramid-a tiny replica of the Temple in which he stood."
--Darth Bane: Path of Destruction
"And now you stand before the Council of the Elders once more."
--Elder Council (Knights of the Old Republic)
"...And now you return as our last hope to stop what you started."
--Elder Council (Knights of the Old Republic)
"When you vanished, we thought you had forgotten us..."
--The One (Knights of the Old Republic)
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The fact the holocron was then "almost completely blank" in symbols also bring up new theories. The symbols of the holocron must be unique and imbued with dark side power. Despite this, Darth Bane mentions the holocron was indeed flawed. It would certainly not be a stretch to suggest that due to this flaw not all of Revan's knowledge, which was limited at this time anyway (Jedi Civil War didn't even begin yet), was given to Darth Bane. There is also the below fact:
"The holocron had the ability to block out areas of knowledge that were beyond the user's ability."
--The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
This is vital. Darth Bane at this time, according to The Official Star Wars Fact File 134, can be matched in combat and power. He was not the most powerful Sith Lord currently alive, and his knowledge on Sith lore was limited extensively to merely the Academy archives, which merely possessed "scrolls, tomes, and manuals". Some rituals Revan explained to Bane were so intense that he could "barely wrap his mind around their awesome potential." Yet, how about the ones he couldn't comprehend? The one's only a true Dark Lord can master and perform? Darth Bane eventually reaches this point, but as of Path of Destruction, it is clear he is not yet there. Many of Darth Revan's awesome power might have been beyond Darth Bane, and due to his limited knowledge, he didn't know that he was missing out. However by the time of Rule of Two, he learns from his mistake.
"Not surprisingly, most of the information inside the Holocron was hidden, locked away in the depths of its crystalline structure where it could be accessed only through time, meditation, and careful study. It would take many months, maybe even years, before Bane could lay claim to its greatest secrets. And right now there were more immediate concerns he needed to deal with."
--Darth Bane: Rule of Two
It states that it would take years to unlock all of Freedon Nadd's knowledge. He didn't have this time for Revan's. He merely had a few weeks to comprehend the entire database of Malachor V, Korriban, and all the other worlds Revan came across. He simply can not unlock all this knowledge in such short time. Revan's holocron was flawed, and while it did prove extremely useful, it was not merely the limits of Revan like you suggest.
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You are really overestimated sorcery and holocrons, bae. Darth Krayt, despite having in possession a shit ton of the Lords who came before him, was not invincible. Kam Solusar and Tionne Solusar studied the Telos Holocron, but they didn't harness the knowledge of every Sith Lord before them either. And honestly saying an unknown sorcery attack will be the deciding factor of a 13 page debate is insane. The entire Jedi Council's power was not able to overcome Revan's will, there is really no way Darth Zannah could. The two times Darth Zannah unleashes sorecery, she has time in between to gather her strength. The first time she was able to seize the moment on hesitation, the second time she was a nice distance away from Bane and notably gathered her strength. Darth Bane even knew what she was doing before it happened. These circumstantial advantages will not happen against Revan. There will be no Battle Meditation to distract Revan or a grave for Zannah to trip on.
"The big man hesitated, casting a quick glance over toward the others to see what had happened. Seizing the opportunity, Zannah's fingers flickered in strange patterns as she unleashed her Sith sorcery at her foe."
"Opening herself up to the power of the dark side, Zannah reached out and touched the mind of her master. Bane sensed the attack, bracing herself."
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
Total Spent Time for Response: 49 minutes (please log in to view the image)
"It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves…it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes. It cannot be taught…it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand."
―Kreia (Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)
(please log in to view the image)
So yes, bae. You are the one who is wrong. As you kindly quoted, the Sith Assassins instinctively got the technique on Malachor V following the Mass Shadow Generator cataclysm. They "felt the echoes of unimaginable pain and suffering," just as Nihilus and Meetra did. A "vast emptiness" weighed down on them, and all they could do is to feed off of others to fill this. But they merely felt the aftermath. They were never there when the Mandalorian and Republic fleet was devoured. Revan was though. Revan was far enough away to not be in that shock-wave that Meetra Surik or Darth Nihilus were in, but as any disturbance in the Force, he felt it. Just as Obi-Wan Kenobi felt the destruction of Alderaan light years away, or that Revan himself felt the bombardment of Serroco, why would he not feel the deaths of Malachor V when he was litterally in orbit around the planet itself? You are not making much sense. Though that isn't my point. My point is rather that Revan did in fact walk on Malachor V after the devastation, and even set up his own Sith Academy there. He felt what the Sith Assassins felt, he suffered under the weight of Malachor V as all the rest did. Darth Traya, Darth Sion, and the Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide agree with me. I see no reason why Darth Revan would not have the same powers the Sith Assassins did when he did everything they did and more. One of the major things of the second game was when Darth Traya told you that Darth Revan corrupted Jedi through the powers of Malachor V.
"Revan knew the power of such places… and the power in making them. They can be used to break the will of others, of Jedi, promising them power, and turning them to the dark side."
―Kreia (Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords)
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"It corrupts all that walks on its surface, drowns them in the power of the dark side—it corrupts all life. And it feeds on death."
―Kreia (Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords)
Though, there is also something I still must note though. Darth Traya was wrong about one thing. Malachor V can be resisted, and while herself, Darth Nihilus, and the Sith Assassins were consumed by its power, Darth Revan was not. "Revan's will allow[ed] him to feed on (and not be consumed by) the power of the dark side." He was able to feed on Malachor V to give him power. He was able to feel the pull of the Dark Side and the devastation he brought. However his will was powerful enough to not let it consume him (this is another extremely impressive telepathic resistance feat). This is ultimately the difference, as Revan does not do it out of instinct, but he can do it. He went where all the rest went and heard the cries that all the rest heard. He was no different from all the rest besides the fact that he was powerful enough to overcome Malachor V. Darth Nihilus, Darth Traya, and all the rest could not.
Total Spent Time for Response: 110 minutes (please log in to view the image)
Illusions have been overcame many times by willpower. Below are just some examples. And I know that you know this, I have no clue why you are debating otherwise when it is bluntly shown that great willpower can be the key.
1. For the first example, your Sith character overcomes the illusions of the Dread Master through their willpower. They don't use any Force attack like you suggest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwfskN23I6M&t=5m48s
2. I don't have a video for my second example, but surely you know what I am talking about. An illusion is unleashed on Yoda which places him in the Jedi Temple with Jedi Dooku, Qui-Gon Jinn, etc. Yoda does not overcome the illusion by some powerful spell, but by merely stating they do not exist. This is another display of willpower. (please log in to view the image)
3. For my third example, look at Darth Bane from The Clone Wars. Yoda overcomes the illusion through his willpower, something confirmed in the Official Star Wars Databanks. "Once the Jedi dismissed the spirit to be nothing more than an illusion, it dissipated."
--Star Wars Databanks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FaBbIw-H1k&t=1m8s
In combat, Darth Zannah has only ever released illusions besides the one time with the Tendrils. However, look at what she had to do to summon such a beast:
"Again she opened herself up to the dark side. This time however, she didn't attack Bane directly. Instead, she let it flow through her, drawing it from the soil and Ambria itself. She called to power buried for centuries, summoning it up to the surface in wispy tendrils of dark smoke snaking up from the sand."
--Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil
Darth Zannah had to once again take time and effort to create these tendrils. She cannot do it off the whim, but rather instead have to open herself completely to the Dark Side, and in this case, as well as the Ambria itself, for the tendrils to rise. Such luxuries will not be available against Revan. Like let us be serious, assuming Darth Zannah mastered every technique of Nadd's holocron (which has yet to be confirmed), what powers would that bring her? Sutta Chwituskak? Sith poisons? The knowledge on what was in Nadd's holocron is very limited.
Total Spent Time for Response: 3 minutes
It increases the power of the illusion as well. On normal grounds, her illusions she attacked Darth Bane with would not have been so powerful, therefore it is possible he wouldn't require to unleash such energy. If you have yet to realize, with only the power of Exar Kun amplifying Kyp Durron on the Sun Crusher, the dark side tendrils only injured Luke Skywalker, though it did not slice off anything despite it hitting him multiple times.
Total Spent Time for Response: Too ****ing long. (please log in to view the image)
A shout-out to Fated Xtasy for helping me look for proof on this at midnight last night. Thank you so much bro! Anyway, Force-users have performed feats while asleep on numerous occasions:
1. Darth Traya, while in a Jedi Trance unconsciously speaks to Meetra Surik who is also unconscious. "Your voice - I heard it as I floted in the kolto tank."
"Yes, I had hoped as much - I slept here too long, and could not awaken. It may be I reached out unconsciously, and your mind must have been a willing one."
--Meeta Surik and Kreia (Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords)
2. Meetra Surik unconsciously puts herself in a Jedi trance to protect herself from HK-50's poisons. The fact her unconscious self places her in this state to save herself from an event that has yet to happen (if she did not fall into a Jedi trance before the poisons were dispensed, she would have died) is highly similar to what happened to Rain. "Indeed. A Jedi trance could protect one from such poisons. In fact, the sedatives may have been intended to keep you unconscious for some time. It would prove lethal to those untrained in such techniques, however. Most curious."
--Kreia (Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords)
3. Leia Organa-Solo sensed a disturbance in the Force while asleep, which woke her up. "The room was quiet and dark, the faint nighttime sounds of Rwookrrorro floating in through the mesh window with the cool night breeze. Staring at the curtains, Leia gripped her blaster with a sweaty hand, and wondered what had awakened her....Nothing but a creepy feeling in the back of her mind that she was no longer safe here. She took a deep breath, let it out silently as she continued to listen."
--Heir to the Empire
As you can see, it is certainly not impossible. XSUPREMEXSKILLZ even believes me, so do other members. I don't understand why you are so focused on believing otherwise when all proof points to support me.
Total Spent Time for Response: I got my period during my response so I took a break and lose track of time. (please log in to view the image)
First off, stop ****ing saying I already admitted something. I am not aloud to change my opinion when new evidence surfaces? You have said this numerous times now and I don't understand why. I have found other quotes and panels that suggest otherwise, and your way of countering such new arguments are to beat the dead-horse? It is honestly really getting annoying. Sorry bae, but just saying.
It is not an accurate demonstration of her power because she could not do the same as a Sith Lord. The powers of that storm is well beyond anything Darth Bane alone is capable of (something I already proved), yet she was able to defend herself. Though she is unable to summon a Force protection bubble when in combat against Darth Bane as a more powerful figure. The answer is obviously clear Neph. Unless you are suggesting Rain is more powerful then Darth Zannah, it is safe to say her Force protection bubble feat as a child invalid, like you consider Galen Marek's clone feats as invalid. I am not trying to discredit Darth Zannah, I put her rather high (Son of Dathomir Darth Maul level), though using invalid feats as her from a child is not really the best route to go.
Total Spent Time for Response: Didn't count here.
Bae, you aren't making any sense. All of the power was transferred to Darth Bane himself. He controlled and directed the storm. Merely a fraction of this storms power (as you just kindly said, not all of it was directed) utterly turned trees to ash. According to The Official Star Wars Fact File 134, "most of the Sith, Jedi and allies were utterly destroyed," the storm was insanely powerful. Merely some lightning bolts from Darth Bane is not even worthy of comparison to what Rain had to defend against. And I am not talking about the storm as a whole, but rather the small portion that came at her.
Force Defenses can block lightning. Zannah has no feats for her Force defenses because her only feat is not a valid representation but rather PIS as shown against her fight with Darth Bane. Zannah's Force defenses are not enough to block Revan's lightning. Case closed.
Total Spent Time for Response: Didn't count here either.
That is true. Though gathering that much energy ultimately doesn't make much of a difference for an attack that quick, especially if he had to do it instinctively. Though I will concede it is an impressive telekinesis feat for Darth Zannah (hoping then you will concede on other aspects of the debate). Though, this one feat doesn't determine the battle. Vitiate was a much more powerful Sith Lord then Darth Bane or Darth Zannah, and add that fact in that he was on a very powerful Dark Side nexus of the time still holds for Revan a highly impressive feat, regardless if Vitiate was not prepared or not. However that wasn't the point. This is: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...threadid=597642
In the thread your argument is basically Revan's feat requires more energy, and is therefore superior, to put it bluntly. Below is an example of you saying such:
Total Spent Time for Response: Didn't count here also.
Now I can assure you with all honesty that dragging down 30 asteroids from the sky in the middle of combat releases more energy then anything Darth Zannah has ever performed. Like hell, I know you hate the Naruto calculations, but check this out:
Revan's Best Energy Showcase: http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=22046
Zannah's Best Energy Showcase: http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=22272
Now I don't care, to be honest, if you don't believe Naruto for one cent, but don't ignore the fact that Revan's feat utterly eclipses Zannah's. Like the difference is a big-ass watermelon compared to a seed.
Total Time Spent for Response: A conversation with NewGuy01 on Steam.
NewGuy01:"Malachor is a core example though. This wound in the Force BS was stupid to begin with, but it doesn't apply here anyway. Several Nexus's of the Dark Side have been created in a similar manner. Vjun was also tainted due to a countless number of deaths there."
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I made note on most of my posts over how long it took me. Neph you are one of the best debaters on this and my sexy husband, but please do not give me a half-ass response. I spent my entire Sunday typing this up (along with playing Webkinz with my little sister and listening to inspirational music to make me push forward and reply to this debate). Don't make it seem like a waist. Thanks.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
Last edited by Jaggarath on Jul 14th, 2014 at 01:36 AM
Credit goes to Emperordmb for bringing this to my attention. Thank you!
Neph, I think I found another example revolving Force users using the Force in their sleep:
"The Force is bigger than all of us, but expresses itself in two aspects. The Living Force is raw and close at hand. It is the life energy tingling around you when you pass among plants and animals in a walk through the jungle. When beings die, you sense it through the Living Force. When many die at once, the loss of their energy may shock you, even knock you out. All of your tangible Force Force abilities—such as running, jumping, heightened senses, moving objects, or soothing the emotions of others—are techniques by which we become agents of the Living Force."
---The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force The Unifying Force
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“Meetra was much closer to the mass-shadow generator than you were. She felt the shock wave; it nearly killed her. Left her vulnerable. At the same time, she felt the deaths of the Mandalorians and her fellow soldiers through the Force. It was all too much to bear in her weakened state. It would have killed her.” She paused for emphasis, before continuing. “Instinctively, she protected herself the only way she knew how. She cut herself off from the Force … permanently.”
--Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan
"As the ship drew closer to the dingy brown world she felt a growing sense of unease and discomfort. In some ways it reminded her of Malachor V—the massive and instantaneous loss of life on that doomed world had created a wound in the Force. The activation of the mass-shadow generator had obliterated two armies, shredding apart the bonds of the Force that linked all living things."
--Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan
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Wookieepedia and (hate to say it) Aurbere also agree with me that she performed the feat unconscious and instinctively. So yeah, that is now 4 examples bae. Oh and also, a non-force sensitive does this:
"Sechel’s reaction to the image was so subtle that Meetra almost didn’t notice it. His eyes widened slightly in recognition; an instinctive, unconscious reaction. It lasted only a fraction of a second, and Meetra was impressed with how well he was able to hide his surprise.”
--Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
Did you think that needed to be proven? I already know the Force can be used instinctively and unconsciously. That doesn't prove you can do so when literally unconscious though.
I mean that last quote just proves that unconscious reaction exists which no shit.
Concede? That was not what the "ugh" was for.
The "ugh" was that I would have to beat your ass again.
I thought one time was enough, tbh. (please log in to view the image)
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
Jul 13th, 2014 04:41 AM
And honestly saying an unknown sorcery attack will be the deciding factor of a 13 page debate is insane. 
The entire Jedi Council's power was not able to overcome Revan's will, there is really no way Darth Zannah could. The two times Darth Zannah unleashes sorecery, she has time in between to gather her strength. The first time she was able to seize the moment on hesitation, the second time she was a nice distance away from Bane and notably gathered her strength. Darth Bane even knew what she was doing before it happened. These circumstantial advantages will not happen against Revan. There will be no Battle Meditation to distract Revan or a grave for Zannah to trip on.
Anyway, Force-users have performed feats while asleep on numerous occasions:
I am not trying to discredit Darth Zannah, I put her rather high (Son of Dathomir Darth Maul level), though using invalid feats as her from a child is not really the best route to go.
