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Little Mac vs. Heihachi Mishima
Started by: Bro SMASH

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Bro SMASH
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by StyleTime
How is catching a bullet in your teeth irrelevant?


Well, it's not like Little Mac is gonna shoot him.


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Old Post Dec 14th, 2014 01:13 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
Well, it's not like Little Mac is gonna shoot him.


So showing super human reflexes doesn't count now?


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Old Post Dec 14th, 2014 01:27 AM
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Originally posted by Bro SMASH
I first want to know where they get some of their information from because it sounds they're using the Blood Vengeance movie, which isn't canon.

Some of that other stuff like Heihachi catching/dodging bullets or surviving an explosion (even though it didn't kill him, still put him in a coma for 10 days) is kind of irrelevant when talking about a fight.

Besides, I already mentioned Mr. Sandman (one of Little Mac's opponents) being able to tear through a building with punches and Mac has beaten guys twice his size and weight.



1:25, Kazuya and Jin's clash shatters the windows of a nearby building and partly craters where they are standing.



1:30, Bob the Blob clearly dodges a bullet after it has been fired and subdues the gunmen.

1:50, we see Paul fight Bryan Fury, the cyborg super soldier (I'll show how strong he is in a minute). Two minutes in their clash devastates their surroundings.



Here we see Bryan Fury run through assault rifle fire and even a tank shell. He then tears the tank turret off its hinges and throws it. Paul, a fighter on Heihachi's level, matched him.

"But wait", you might say,"Heihachi didn't do any of that!"

Well first of all, Heihachi has beaten Kazuya, the very same Kazuya who has fought Paul Phoenix to a draw and beaten him (all three are among the stronger fighters in Tekken though).

But it's not like Heihachi's own feats are lacking.



Heihachi and Kazuya both fight a bunch of Jacks, which as you might know are massive, super strong androids made of metal. They literally tear them apart with their blows and appear to be winning, at least until Kazuya betrays Heihachi to use him as bait. Then, dogpiled by what appears to be nearly a dozen or more, they all self destruct, obliterating the temple with Heihachi at ground zero of the blast. Which he survived, as you know.

So I have a question: how is being strong enough to shatter concrete, steel, and glass with the shockwaves of your blows, being fast enough to dodge or catch bullets, and being durable enough to survive an explosion that would have incinerated a normal person irrelevant when talking about a fight? All show that Heihachi is stronger, faster, and more durable than Mac, and frankly he's probably also more skilled. Mac has no experience dealing with non-boxers. Heihachi has fought fighters of all shapes and sizes.

I'm gonna need you to either provide the video of Mr. Sandman punching through buildings or point me to where I can find it.


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Old Post Dec 14th, 2014 01:35 AM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9s0...u.be&t=7m8s

So Scenario actually found the feat you were talking about.

It's all right, but it was done with several punches over time. Characters at or below Heihachi's level have down better as side-effects of their blows, not to mention goofy shit like Bryan tossing a tank turret or Heihachi shattering steel with a single attack.


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Old Post Dec 14th, 2014 02:05 AM
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I just want to say, the fight between Kazuya and Paul took place years ago when they weren't as strong as they are now.

Nobody is going to shoot Heihachi or blow him up and even though did take that explosion well, the fact that he was in a coma means that it DID hurt him.

In the end, the only thing that's relevant is probably how hard he punches or how well fights. You might think that just because Little Mac is a boxer, he has no experience with none boxers but that means you're being too realistic, in which the Punch-Out!! universe is anything but. In that world, anybody using almost any tactics be a boxer. You got guys who either use magic tricks, a third glove, or, if you to go back even further, martial arts fighters like Dragon Chan and Hoy Quarlow (both who use kicks in the fight).

As for Little Mac himself, he's definitely no ordinary boxer. He's 5'7 (or 4'8 depending on which game you go by) and weighs at 107, yet he's knocking out guys as tall as 6'6 or weighs at 400 pounds (or heavier). These guys either take bull charges head on, knocks bulls away with a punch, trains with bears, or, as I mentioned already, tear through buildings with their barehands.



(at the beginning)

This is why I say, even if Heihachi wins, it won't be a stomp...at all. Little Mac will give him a really tough fight.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Lek Kuen
So showing super human reflexes doesn't count now?


If it's not shown in a fight, then no, it doesn't. Dodging bullets doesn't change the fact that he still gets tagged with punches. Surviving an explosion doesn't change the fact that he can get beat up.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by NemeBro
It's all right, but it was done with several punches over time. Characters at or below Heihachi's level have down better as side-effects of their blows, not to mention goofy shit like Bryan tossing a tank turret or Heihachi shattering steel with a single attack.


I didn't see anybody destroying buildings with as a side effect of their blows so it can't be any better than that.


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Old Post Dec 14th, 2014 02:30 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Bro SMASH



If it's not shown in a fight, then no, it doesn't.


How is dodging people attacking you not applicable to a fight? That is a silly statement. it isn't even like the whole running versus reflex feat thing. He is literally being attacked and dodging or catching the enemies weapons. If he can dodge a bullet at close range he can dodge a fist if it moves slower.

Or I guess none of Mac's feats count because no one he fights uses Heihachi's exact style.


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Old Post Dec 14th, 2014 02:36 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Lek Kuen
How is dodging people attacking you not applicable to a fight? That is a silly statement. it isn't even like the whole running versus reflex feat thing. He is literally being attacked and dodging or catching the enemies weapons. If he can dodge a bullet at close range he can dodge a fist if it moves slower.


He's being shot at, not being punched. Don't even try to leave that part out. He caught one bullet with his teeth so now suddenly he can dodge of combination of punches up close? Or are you trying to say every punch his opponents threw at him are like bullets now?

quote:
Or I guess none of Mac's feats count because no one he fights uses Heihachi's exact style. [/B]


Except we do know that this is a fist fight, which is what Mac does all the time, not a shootout. If we were talking about somebody like Nathan Drake, then yeah, that would be a valid argument. That's not the case here, though.


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Old Post Dec 14th, 2014 02:44 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
He's being shot at, not being punched. Don't even try to leave that part out. He caught one bullet with his teeth so now suddenly he can dodge of combination of punches up close? Or are you trying to say punch his opponents ever threw at him are like bullets now?



Except we do know that this is a fist fight, which is what Mac does all the time, not a shootout.


So any combat feats not against a fist are irrelevant? No matter how slow the puncher and how fast the weapon used?


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Old Post Dec 14th, 2014 02:45 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Lek Kuen
So any combat feats not against a fist are irrelevant? No matter how slow the puncher and how fast the weapon used?


Are you saying just because you dodge or catch something, it's a combat feat?


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Old Post Dec 14th, 2014 02:51 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
I just want to say, the fight between Kazuya and Paul took place years ago when they weren't as strong as they are now.


Indeed, and despite Heihachi getting older and presumably weaker he is still on par with both of them.

quote:
Nobody is going to shoot Heihachi or blow him up and even though did take that explosion well, the fact that he was in a coma means that it DID hurt him.


If he can block or dodge a bullet, how will Mac hit him?

If he can withstand a massive explosion, how will Mac hurt him?

quote:
In the end, the only thing that's relevant is probably how hard he punches


Hard enough to rend steel, concrete, and glass with their shockwaves.

quote:
or how well fights.


Better than Mac. He's certainly more experienced.

quote:
You might think that just because Little Mac is a boxer, he has no experience with none boxers but that means you're being too realistic, in which the Punch-Out!! universe is anything but. In that world, anybody using almost any tactics be a boxer. You got guys who either use magic tricks, a third glove, or, if you to go back even further, martial arts fighters like Dragon Chan and Hoy Quarlow (both who use kicks in the fight).


So still predominately boxers with a few gimmicky fighters. Heihachi has fought martial artists of all shapes, sizes, and species (he trained a bear), and has even had to deal with magical douche fighters.

quote:
As for Little Mac himself, he's definitely no ordinary boxer. He's 5'7 (or 4'8 depending on which game you go by) and weighs at 107, yet he's knocking out guys as tall as 6'6 or weighs at 400 pounds (or heavier). These guys either take bull charges head on, knocks bulls away with a punch, trains with bears, or, as I mentioned already, tear through buildings with their barehands.



(at the beginning)


And Heihachi has torn massive androids apart with his fists (imagine what he will do to Mac), fought demons, bears, and boxing kangaroos, and is one of the strongest fighters in a series where superhuman physical abilities is standard.

quote:
This is why I say, even if Heihachi wins, it won't be a stomp...at all. Little Mac will give him a really tough fight.


Heihachi will literally kill him with a single punch or kick.

quote:
If it's not shown in a fight, then no, it doesn't.


There is no reason to assume that.

If Heihachi can catch or dodge a bullet, he can dodge something slower. Like Mac's fist.

If Heihachi can survive a huge explosion, he can withstand something far weaker. Like Mac's fist.

Heihachi wins, easily. thumb up


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Old Post Dec 14th, 2014 02:53 AM
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Getting shot at is just as much a combat feat as getting punched. Just any other offensive projectile is. It may not be a speed feat against hand to hand but it is a speed feat against an attacker. A punch isn't so different from a bullet that we can't use the speed as a gauge for how fast he can react to things coming at him, which a fist would be.


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Old Post Dec 14th, 2014 02:53 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NemeBro
If he can block or dodge a bullet, how will Mac hit him?

If he can withstand a massive explosion, how will Mac hurt him?


Simple; throw punches at him. None of that stopped him from losing to guys like Jin, Kazuya, or Lars.

quote:
Hard enough to rend steel, concrete, and glass with their shockwaves.


Well, even though we didn't see Heihachi do that, I might still go with that.

quote:
Better than Mac. He's certainly more experienced.


Not sure about better but he's definitely more experienced...but then again, that doesn't always guarantee a win against younger opponents and Mac is younger than anybody he's ever fought.

quote:
So still predominately boxers with a few gimmicky fighters. Heihachi has fought martial artists of all shapes, sizes, and species (he trained a bear), and has even had to deal with magical douche fighters.


Those few "gimmicky" fighters are nothing to ignore, especially considering how Little Mac still has to use only his fists.

quote:
And Heihachi has torn massive androids apart with his fists (imagine what he will do to Mac), fought demons, bears, and boxing kangaroos, and is one of the strongest fighters in a series where superhuman physical abilities is standard.


Those androids aren't exactly as massive as a building and I don't recall him ever fighting Roger. As for demons...so what? He only won one fight against a demon and hadn't done any better since.

quote:
Heihachi will literally kill him with a single punch or kick.


If Mr. Sandman couldn't do anything close to that, Heihachi isn't doing it either.

There is no reason to assume that.

quote:
If Heihachi can catch or dodge a bullet, he can dodge something slower. Like Mac's fist.

If Heihachi can survive a huge explosion, he can withstand something far weaker. Like Mac's fist.

Heihachi wins, easily. thumb up [/B]


If that was the case, he wouldn't get beat by guys like Jin, Kazuya, or Lars and their punches aren't anything like bullets, nor do they have the impact of an explosion (in which Heihachi survived but was still hurt badly).

Little Mac, who punches well beyond his weight class (if there ever was one in his world), will indeed hurt Heihachi badly.


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Old Post Dec 14th, 2014 03:13 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Lek Kuen
Getting shot at is just as much a combat feat as getting punched. Just any other offensive projectile is. It may not be a speed feat against hand to hand but it is a speed feat against an attacker. A punch isn't so different from a bullet that we can't use the speed as a gauge for how fast he can react to things coming at him, which a fist would be.


That's like saying if a book falls off the top of a shelf and I move out from under it, it's proof that I can dodge a headbut up close.

It's not the same thing. It depends on what it is.


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Old Post Dec 14th, 2014 03:18 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
Simple; throw punches at him. None of that stopped him from losing to guys like Jin, Kazuya, or Lars.


Who are also fast enough to dodge bullets and strong enough to rend steel, concrete, and glass with the shockwave of their punches.

quote:
Well, even though we didn't see Heihachi do that, I might still go with that.


He's beaten people who could.

quote:
Not sure about better but he's definitely more experienced...but then again, that doesn't always guarantee a win against younger opponents and Mac is younger than anybody he's ever fought.


Indeed, and Mac also has much less experience against fighters who are fighting for their lives than Heihachi. This isn't a boxing round with rules. Heihachi will aim to put his fist through Mac's chest. And he will.

quote:
Those few "gimmicky" fighters are nothing to ignore, especially considering how Little Mac still has to use only his fists.


They are rather easy to ignore when they are much weaker than Heihachi and most characters in Tekken.

quote:
Those androids aren't exactly as massive as a building


They're also not made of bricks and didn't require multiple punches to destroy.

Mr. Sandman only wrecked part of a brick building with a flurry of punches at it. Heihachi was tearing through super-durable metal JACKS with single strikes.

quote:
and I don't recall him ever fighting Roger. As for demons...so what? He only won one fight against a demon and hadn't done any better since.


Whereas Mac has never come close to beating something as powerful as a Devil. Stop downplaying Heihachi.

quote:
If Mr. Sandman couldn't do anything close to that, Heihachi isn't doing it either.


Heihachi hits much harder than someone who could only destroy a small brick building with a flurry of hits. People in his weight class destroy greater quantities of more durable materials indirectly.

quote:
If that was the case, he wouldn't get beat by guys like Jin, Kazuya, or Lars and their punches aren't anything like bullets, nor do they have the impact of an explosion (in which Heihachi survived but was still hurt badly).


Their punches are around as fast or faster than bullets, as evidenced by the multiple showings of bullet-timing among Tekken characters. Their punches certainly do have the impact of explosions, if not one as large as the one Heihachi survived. They can destroy steel, concrete, and glass with indirect blows, and characters like Bryan Fury can toss around tank turrets.

quote:
Little Mac, who punches well beyond his weight class (if there ever was one in his world), will indeed hurt Heihachi badly.


He won't even make Heihachi flinch.

Heihachi is demonstrably faster, stronger, and more durable than Little Mac. Provide feats that are on par with or greater than Heihachi's feats or concede the debate.


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Old Post Dec 14th, 2014 03:36 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
That's like saying if a book falls off the top of a shelf and I move out from under it, it's proof that I can dodge a headbut up close.

It's not the same thing. It depends on what it is.
A book falling from the top of a shelf is slower than a headbutt or punch.

A bullet is much faster than Mac's punches.

Therefore, Heihachi can easily block or dodge Mac's punches. This isn't hard.


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Old Post Dec 14th, 2014 03:37 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NemeBro
Who are also fast enough to dodge bullets and strong enough to rend steel, concrete, and glass with the shockwave of their punches.


I don't recall all of them doing at once.


quote:
He's beaten people who could.


More like, he LOST to people who could.

quote:
Indeed, and Mac also has much less experience against fighters who are fighting for their lives than Heihachi. This isn't a boxing round with rules. Heihachi will aim to put his fist through Mac's chest. And he will.


But then again, the rules are irrelevant even in the Punch-Out!! world so this won't be a problem for Little Mac.

What's to say Little Mac won't knock Heihachi unconscious? He's got super strength too.

quote:
They are rather easy to ignore when they are much weaker than Heihachi and most characters in Tekken.


Okay but then lets go back to Mr. Sandman.

quote:
They're also not made of bricks and didn't require multiple punches to destroy.

Mr. Sandman only wrecked part of a brick building with a flurry of punches at it. Heihachi was tearing through super-durable metal JACKS with single strikes.


There's really no telling how many punches he threw. He did throw more than one. Still, none of those Jacks were as massive or tall as that building.

quote:
Whereas Mac has never come close to beating something as powerful as a Devil. Stop downplaying Heihachi.


How powerful is Devil then?

quote:
Heihachi hits much harder than someone who could only destroy a small brick building with a flurry of hits. People in his weight class destroy greater quantities of more durable materials indirectly.


None of them directly or indirectly destroyed better materials than a building. Come on, dude.

quote:
Their punches are around as fast or faster than bullets, as evidenced by the multiple showings of bullet-timing among Tekken characters. Their punches certainly do have the impact of explosions, if not one as large as the one Heihachi survived. They can destroy steel, concrete, and glass with indirect blows, and characters like Bryan Fury can toss around tank turrets.


They don't have the impact of explosions or anything like bullets. Punches are very different. You know better than that.

quote:
He won't even make Heihachi flinch.

Heihachi is demonstrably faster, stronger, and more durable than Little Mac. Provide feats that are on par with or greater than Heihachi's feats or concede the debate.


You hardly shown any feats that are relevant to this fight. All you did was mention Heihachi dodging bullets (which is irrelevant), surviving explosions (which is also irrelevant), and destroying androids with punches (about the only thing that is relevant, though it's not enough to say he wins). He's won or loss to other guys with super strength but for some reason, he's not flinching at Mac's hits? I've not seen you prove that even once. Maybe you should concede that this isn't a stomp like you claim.


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Old Post Dec 14th, 2014 04:20 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NemeBro
A book falling from the top of a shelf is slower than a headbutt or punch.

A bullet is much faster than Mac's punches.

Therefore, Heihachi can easily block or dodge Mac's punches. This isn't hard.


And yet, Heihachi still gets hit with punches slower than bullets so he'll still get hit by Little Mac's punches.

This isn't hard indeed.


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Old Post Dec 14th, 2014 04:23 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
You mean like what Mr. Sandman can do?



Now tell me exactly what Tekken game did he do this in?


I assumed we were taking Canon, and non-canon feats into consideration.


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Old Post Dec 14th, 2014 06:07 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
I don't recall all of them doing at once.


Is English your second language? If not, pay more attention at what you type, because what you just said is nearly indecipherable.

quote:
More like, he LOST to people who could.


He beat Kazuya. Devil Kazuya, in fact.

quote:
But then again, the rules are irrelevant even in the Punch-Out!! world so this won't be a problem for Little Mac.

What's to say Little Mac won't knock Heihachi unconscious? He's got super strength too.


Oh yeah? To what degree? Can you prove that he is as strong as Heihachi?

That's a rhetorical question. I already know Heihachi and Tekken characters in general are much stronger.

quote:
There's really no telling how many punches he threw. He did throw more than one. Still, none of those Jacks were as massive or tall as that building.


More than two, considering we see at least two thrown before he is done. Probably much more, considering how little damage those two punches did to the wall of that building.

Watch your video. He's made a hole shorter and a little wider than him in a brick wall. Keep in mind that the wall is only two or three inches thick, so it's not very solid. He did this with at the bare minimum two punches.

Heihachi devastated the larger and more durable JACKS with single attacks. He hits much harder.

quote:
How powerful is Devil then?




Telekinetically destroys a motorcycle.

He also destroyed a forest.

"But wait, that's Devil Jin, not Kazuya!"

Devil Jin only possesses half of the Devil in him that Kazuya did in Tekken 2. You know, when Heihachi killed him in single combat.

quote:
None of them directly or indirectly destroyed better materials than a building. Come on, dude.


lol

Steel is more durable than light brickwork like what Mr. Sandman destroyed.

quote:
They don't have the impact of explosions or anything like bullets. Punches are very different. You know better than that.


Prove this statement. I have provided direct evidence of Tekken characters devastating the area around them with their clashes, as well as direct evidence of Tekken characters moving as fast or faster than bullets.

Yet you would claim they have less impact than explosions (which is a vague description by the way, Heihachi and friends certainly punch harder than hand grenades), and punch and dodge more slowly than bullets?

Provide evidence to this claim or shut up. I have grown weary of you my son.

quote:
You hardly shown any feats that are relevant to this fight. All you did was mention Heihachi dodging bullets (which is irrelevant), surviving explosions (which is also irrelevant),


Provide solid evidence or reasoning to come to the conclusion that superhuman durability and speed are not relevant in a fight.

You can't. Just give up. You made a bad thread and are desperately trying to argue that this in some way resembles a fight. It's embarrassing, no one buys it, Little Mac is stomped. Deal with it. thumb up

Oh, and I've supported my side of the argument with much more evidence than you have. smile

quote:
and destroying androids with punches (about the only thing that is relevant, though it's not enough to say he wins).


Provide proof that Mac could even come close to replicating this feat.

quote:
He's won or loss to other guys with super strength but for some reason, he's not flinching at Mac's hits? I've not seen you prove that even once.


Yes, Heihachi being able to fight with and take hits from people who hit much harder than Mac means that Heihachi would take Mac's fist to the jaw with a smile to his face. Which wouldn't happen unless Heihachi wanted it to, mind you. Heihachi is so much faster than Mac he isn't being hit unless he wants to be.

Also, you're using a logical fallacy. Specifically the fallacy of the undistributed middle.

"All characters who have hurt/beaten Heihachi have super strength."
"Little Mac has super strength."
"Therefore, Little Mac can hurt/beat Heihachi."

It ignores the possibility (not possibility really, more like certainty) that the super strong Tekken characters are, gasp, stronger than Little Mac. They are, by their feats and general portrayals.

quote:
Maybe you should concede that this isn't a stomp like you claim.


I'm afraid not. I won this debate the moment you dared challenge me. I'll allow you another response or two, but unless you actually start using logic in your argument or provide some evidence I'm going to have to add this thread to my long list of victories.


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Old Post Dec 14th, 2014 06:28 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
And yet, Heihachi still gets hit with punches slower than bullets so he'll still get hit by Little Mac's punches.

This isn't hard indeed.
Once again, you haven't proved that those punches are slower than bullets. smile


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Old Post Dec 14th, 2014 06:28 AM
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