"Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting."
When the Sith finally emerged from a thousand years of watching and waiting, they numbered—in accordance with the tradition set down by Darth Bane—only two. The most powerful of these was Darth Sidious, an ice-cold, diabolically calculating genius equipped with the strength of the dark side of the Force, as well as an enormous wealth of Sith artifacts, equipment, and knowledge.
-- The Dark Side Sourcebook
Darth Sidious proved to be the grim culmination of a thousand years of Sith philosophy and teachings.
-- Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force
The Sith have waited millennium for the birth of one who is powerful enough to return them from hiding. Darth Sidious is that one—the Sith's revenge on the Jedi order for having nearly eradicated the practitioners of the dark side of the Force.
-- The Complete Visual Dictionary
The Sith Order, in hiding for a millennium, had awaited the birth of one who was powerful enough to return the Order to prominence. Darth Sidious was the fulfillment of that prophecy, capable of exacting the Sith's revenge on the Jedi for having nearly eradicated the practitioners of the dark side of the Force.
And also the fact that most of Exar's Force feats (or at least the ones he performed while he was alive, since I don't know if his spirit would be amped) occured while he was amped by a nexus that was stated as being far more powerful than Oricon, which was described as immeasurably strong with the dark side:
"The dark side permeates everything here. Saturates it. I've been to Oricon, this is another level entirely."
-- The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan
Located in an unremarkable system well off the Hydian Way, Oricon seems an almost arbitrary choice for the Dread Masters’ home. But anyone with an affinity for the Force can sense that the rocky Outer Rim moon is immeasurably strong with the dark side.
-- The Old Republic: Codex Entry: Oricon
Sidious, on the other hand, didn't need a nexus to perform his best feats to my memory. And as for Exar Kun's blasts, Palpatine was more powerful than Vader, who could disintegrate two Lyleks (their carapace was stated as being sturdier than a Twi'lek's armor) years before his prime, and Jerec, who could destroy a structure holding a massive ship in place. In other words, Palpatine is most certainly capable of unleashing more destructive power than that.
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
What lightsaber accomplishments exactly?
I don't see many "lightsaber based" feats for Sidious.
His fight against Maul and Savage is certainly impressive. Yet, he defeats them with pretty much force powers only, instead of outduelling hin. Sure. He was capable of holding his own against the duo, but so was Obi-Wan Kenobi.
When he manages to defeat the three masters coming to arrest him, he probably hindered them through the force, disabling their defense. In the RotS novel, he outright distracts them before starting a concealed attack, in the movie, they don't move at all, despite Sidious making a comment after igniting his lightsaber, which kind of overwrites that idea that he "blitzed" them.
Then he fights Mace, and is disarmed. "Wins" through the intervention of Anakin. And it's made pretty obvious, that he couldn't overcome the swordplay of Windu before. Now you may want to consider, that Mace, quite clearly, is no match for Sidious in terms of force abilities. He just manages to overcome the Sith Lord with pure fighting skill and a unique ability (Shatterpoint), but even his skill alone was enough to reach a stalemate with the Sith Lord. Now imagine what would happen if somebody closer to Sidious in terms of power and with a better lightsaber skill faces the Sith Lord.
Or stop imagining this, because we know what happend from his fight with Yoda. Despite constantly fighting from a position of advantage, Sidious - if we can trust the RotS script - is disarmed by the Jedi Master in less than a minute. And if that is the case, Yoda is head and shoulders above Sidious when it comes to lightsaber fights.
Then you need to consider the fact, that Sidious did never focus on "direct combat". He's the epitome of cunning, stealth and manipulation, but clearly not the type of character that seeks direct combat. Instead, he tries to avoid it whenever he can. Unlike Kun, who is shown to focus on nothing but superiority in combat through the entirety of his career, starting with his sparing fight against Vodo, continueing in his duel with Ulic and ending with the defeat of his master in a lightsaber duel.
So one might ask, who is better suited for a lightsaber duel. The guy who focused on the discipline, even going so far, that he came up with a unique weapon and a unique fighting style to use it or the guy that saw direct combat as a matter of last resort? If Sidious has to deal with an opponent that he doesn't eclipse in terms of force powers, I don't see him winning a lightsaber duel, since he relies so much on the force instead of just "technique" - and I'm rather certain, that Exar Kun is more in a league with Sidious than Mace Windu was, when it comes to force powers - while probably having a similar talent for bladework in comparison to Mace (a view that can be questioned of course).
@SunRazer
The collective message is not, that Sidious is and will always be the most powerful Sith, no matter how many new characters are invented. This was what you claimed. I accept your concession. Now to your "proof".
I wonder since when the personal views of Daniel Wallace are canon. Did I miss something? The article explores the creation of the Jedi Master and doesn't deal with in-universe phenomena. Pretty worthless, as far as this debate goes, because it's not "out of universe", as some people so happily mentioned - it's also out of canon.
The endnotes are a representation of the view of Kevin J. Anderson / Tom Veitch. If the input of authors to the debate is questionable, then this should be ignored as much as Anderson stating that Kun or DE Sidious is the most powerful Sith. If not, the latter statement also needs consideration. Your choice.
I've said it multiple times before: The Dark Side Sourcebook is one of the oldest sources in the history of SW canon and predates pretty much all other Sith Lords, save for Sidous and Vader themselves. Logically, none of its content can be extended over the canon as we have it today. Back then, this statement for Sidious would obviously be true, since the only other Dark Sider we knew - Qel-Droma aside - was Vader.
"Vader imagined[...]" as beginning coins the entirety of the statement as part of Vader's thoughts. Furthermore, Vader thinking about "power that could be his" rules out the idea, that he is making a reference towards Sidious force abilities, unless Star Wars is now part of the Highlander franchise, where people "inherit" the mythical power of the people they kill.
Already dealt with.
Because certain statements can be applied to a person, but only in the context of that persons own lifetime. You could call George W. Bush "the most powerful man in the world" when talking about the time, when he was US-President. The same doesn't apply to any time before and after that era. The same goes for the statement regarding Sidious and Yoda. When they fought, they were the most powerful force users, but that doesn't necessarily apply to any point before or after that fight. Or do you want to tell us, that Yoda is more powerful than the latest incarnations of Luke Skywalker?
And how does one statement "overwrite" another exactly, if not outright contradicting it? They didn't write down a nice and clear "And despite of what the Official Star Wars Fact File claims, Exar Kun was only once the most powerful and dangerous of the Sith Lords." That would be a retcon. What you present, is just another statement which, by the way, - if we follow your twisted logic - would put Kun above Vitiate in terms of power (since the Sith Emperor lived during Kun's "reign"). Does that sound reasonable to you?
__________________
"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
Bravo sir, hence why the following is to be taken in context:
Because they don't need to.
Let me explain to you the definition of "once" according to the Oxford English Dictionary:
once, adv., conj., adj., and n.
1. At or for one time only
2. At some point or period in the past; on some past occasion; formerly.
Clear? "Once" means that Exar Kun formerly, at a past point, held the title of most powerful Sith Lord, and therefore, he no longer does. This is a retcon (or merely a clarification for misguided individuals such as yourself ) with the statement essentially saying that Exar Kun has been replaced, by a superior Sith Lord - Sidious, as the Complete Visual Dictionary surmises, something you've conveniently overlooked:
But I take it you were getting to that when you took the time to respond to my points.
P.S.So you admit that statements referring to Exar Kun's power are outdated and obsolete? If so I approve.
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Last edited by Beniboybling on Jul 7th, 2015 at 11:45 PM
Based on what was he merely holding his own against the duo? Filoni made it clear Palpatine was enjoying himself (as opposed to the circumstance-ridden duel Kenobi had with the brothers on Floruum where he made use of the environment to get them in each other's way and surprised them by attacking aggressively). On top of that, Filoni stated the brothers couldn't touch him:
Well, that was definitely one of our biggest challenges, Maul and Savage versus Sidious, because we wanted to have an epic lightsaber fight. We hadn’t really had a big one in awhile, and I really thought this is our chance to show everyone why Sidious is the Sith Lord. Why no one can compete with this guy.
At the end of the day, with Sidious, nobody was really going to be able to touch him. He had to be the strongest, most dangerous guy.[U] And you could see at a certain point, he just puts his lightsabers away at the end of the fight and says, “I’m done with this,” and goes in and mauls Maul, so to speak. I love the part where Maul begs at the end, because that’s the thing about Sith. At the end of the day, if you break them…
It’s nice to see the villain of Star Wars really kick the butt of other villains you think are powerful, which helps establish Sidious as “Oh, yeah. This is why he is the Sith Lord.”
Yeah, I think that’s pretty literal at that point. I think that what you understand about Maul is that he is still not nearly as powerful as Sidious.
IGN: He really always does have the upper hand in that fight.
Filoni: [U]And he's enjoying himself while he does it.
It's pretty clear Palpatine is holding back and that Maul and Savage aren't in his league, even collectively. To solidify this, we have Palpatine virtually blitzing Maul when he eventually goes all-out in the novel:
Sidious raised his saber and flew at Maul, who parried desperately, his mechanical legs whirring as he sought to counter his former Master’s blows. Sidious’s sabers were a blur, a whirling cage of deadly plasma. Maul danced away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another, and then there were too many to count, and then there were even more than that.
Maul’s saber spun out of his hand, bouncing away across the floor.
-- Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy
Show me where it says in the RotS script that it happens in less than a minute. The fighting is stated to be extremely furious which suggests considerable contention.
[I["Their swords CLASH. The battle is extremely fast and furious."[/I]
"PALPATINE seeks refuge in the vast Senate Chamber. He gets into the Chancellor's Podium and it starts to rise up into the Arena. YODA makes a giant leap into the control pod. The sword fighting is intense in the confined space."
"YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts."
Where on earth does it state Yoda disarmed him in less than a minute? Moreover, why is this being used to undermine Palpatine unless you can offer me evidence that Kun would fare any better? Yoda is canonically the most skilled Jedi of his time, including the likes of Mace Windu and Anakin Skywalker, and possibly the most skilled Jedi in history:
Though it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Mace Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council.
-- Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter
"We've not seen Mace fight yet, and we know that he's second only to Yoda."
Regardless, the fact is simply that even if Yoda was more skilled with a lightsaber, he simply could never have won his battle with Palpatine by his very own admission, and other sources have reiterated that Yoda lost to Palpatine (you could argue it was due to positioning and weight, though):
In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force. Finally, he saw the truth.
This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...
just—
didn't—
have it.
He'd never had it. He had lost before he started. He had lost before he was born. The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves. They had become new.
-- Revenge of the Sith Novelization
Defeated, Yoda slunk away into the shadow's of the Senate chamber's cavernous depths, leaping into a waiting getaway speeder piloted by Bail Organa.
-- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
The full power of the light side and the dark side of the Force are on display during Yoda's clash with Emperor Palpatine. Outmatched, Yoda retreats and waits to train a new champion to lead the fight against evil.
-- Ultimate Star Wars
That's an outrageous claim. Just because Sidious didn't desire combat means he's less prepared and suited for it? Maul was trained his entire life in the physical arts and was trained to kill Jedi - he was more "suited" to fighting Jedi than Palpatine ever was, yet he was no match for Sidious.
Also, do you have some kind of support for the notion that Kun's talent in bladework is comparable to that of Mace's?
LOL @ digging for concessions when there are none. I made it clear that was simply my opinion on the affair, not canonical fact, so I have no idea why you've chosen to take it as such and consequently become so outraged.
Next time, try not to concede for me. If I concede, I'll state it myself.
Considering Wallace wrote a significant number of SW sourcebooks in which he detailed Exar Kun, I'd place him well above you in terms of credibility, and it's indeed out-of-universe because as you stated, it doesn't refer to any "in-universe" perspective. And it clearly makes reference to "Episode II" and "the movie", so it's obviously out-of-universe.
The fact that it was published in the Insider at all suggests a much higher level of credibility than you're giving, and you're going to have to give me more than an elaborate denial as to why the source isn't credible or reliable.
As for evidence supporting Wallace's/Insider's credibility, well, Jason Fry said so:
"I can help. Yes, that material is C-level canon. (And yes, the Insider is a "legitimate publication.") Leland vets the stuff I write for Insider that's fiction or includes new continuity. He's a busy man; I doubt he'd do that for kicks on his break."
Do you have the full statement from Anderon stating this, in full context and with the source?
And the Endnotes are meant to convey the backstory of Dark Empire, in other words, representing the backstory of a canonical source. Author commentary isn't an unofficial opinion - by your logic, every single author's quotes are unreliable because it's simply their opinion being put to the paper with printing license.
Unfortunately I wasn't around during your multiple denials, but you're wrong. The Dark Side Sourcebook was published in 2001, which is after TotJ's Kun-related publications (1994-1998). Therefore, it indeed takes Exar Kun into consideration.
In fact, I've scanned the contents page of The Dark Side Sourcebook, and look who IS included - Exar Kun:
No, it doesn't, lol. It's a third-person limited perspective, and the "power that could be his" isn't related to the second and entirely different sentence of "the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known", which couldn't be referring to anything other than Force power, lol.
Vader has never envisioned desiring the militaristic and certainly not the political aspects of the Empire - it's clear he's referring to personal power; Force power. The removal of Sidious would result in Vader's access to all of Sidious's reserves of Force knowledge and experiments and what else, and I'm pretty sure Vader would savor that over controlling the military (which he kind of already does) and the politics of the Empire, which he definitely doesn't want to be involved with unless you can show me a source to suggest it's that.
Moreover, the text explicitly states Vader required an apprentice, which would be absolutely irrelevant unless it referred to a personal contest between Vader and Sidious - an actual showdown (not an election, lol). The apprentice would be absolutely meaningless in deciding militaristic/political/other non-Force power related instances. Unless, of course, you'd care to explain to me what difference an apprentice would make in those instances. Do you seriously reckon Vader and an apprentice could take on the whole Empire at once? Or that an apprentice would give Vader presidential election votes?
I won't deny that this is a fair point.
Excuse me and my twisted logic, but I mentioned the fact that the quote was retconned in TCSWE specifically because of instances such as the one with Vitiate - who is now canonically more powerful than Kun. The fact that the quote is now retconned to saying "once the most powerful of the Dark Lords" means that the quote now only refers up to and of his time, not of all time. Therefore, Palpatine is indeed exempted from the quote.
Last edited by SunRazer on Jul 8th, 2015 at 12:24 AM
Jul 7th, 2015 09:55 PM
To all.
) with the statement essentially saying that Exar Kun has been replaced, by a superior Sith Lord - Sidious, as the Complete Visual Dictionary surmises, something you've conveniently overlooked:
