I'm pretty sure that feat took place 1 week after RotJ. I'm pretty sure Luke's best TK feat sans that during RotJ is....just saber throws, and activating bombs across Cloud City. I'm also pretty sure Vader yawns better TK feats than those.
"In coming back to see Yoda we have to figure out Luke's training and the fact that he never finished his training and obviously now he's got a big question he wants answered. There is a point where the hero has to be left on his own 2 feet without anyone there to help him. And you can sort of have him be in a different place for something, but at some point you have to say now all the props have been taken away and he has to face the evil monster alone. In this case the scene established that the evil monster is actually his Father, and he's going to have to do it on his own, and that he's not really equipped to do it. He was too impatient, he didn't finish his studies, and now he's going to be HALF Trained to face a difficult physical and emotional challenge.
George Lucas, Return of the Jedi Audio Commentary.
Honestly I don't see any logical reason why he would use Tk. How would choking him out, or battering him with TK turn him to the dark side this time? Heck if that's what was needed Vader and Palpatine could have just tortured him together.
Had to be a competitive fight where Luke could really lay into Vader as much as Vader could lay into him.
Also concerning the X-Wings, look he's crushed an AT-AT. And we'll see for sure on Wednesday what he's doing to the X-Wings. But looking at his feats he could probably force choke the likes of Darth Maul and Count Dooku. So I really don't see how ROTJ Luke would have the sufficient training to resist that.
The actual explanation for why Vader didn't use TK (btw) is that Lucas probably hadn't worked out all the different aspects of how Jedi fight and how trained you had to be to handle that sort of thing, when he made ROTJ. And now both him (and us) have to make the pieces fit with all the info at hand.
Right, so I don't see if his training as a Jedi was complete, how he was half trained? You also have Yoda saying the only thing left, is for him to confront Vader, you have Sidious remarking he has grown strong too and his showing in the Rancor Pit, Sarlacc Pit on Endor and his final duel with Vader show a far superior Luke than in ESB.
Unless Lucas is meaning something else, I'm not seeing where this fits.
Interesting, but I find myself agreeing with Sas tbh, the physical challenge Lucas refers to was overcome when he matched Vader's blows pound for pound, and the emotional challenge when he resisted the temptations of the dark side.
Luke obviously wasn't in the best position to fight Vader, but he did very well regardless, something various sources confirm, and I don't think there is necessarily a contradiction here.
What this commentary doesn't state is that Luke was outclassed by Vader's Force mastery, or that his only saving face was Vader holding back on his powers.Well there is a fine line between desperation and hopelessness, roughing him up with a bit of TK would have helped demonstrated his superiority and threat level, it's classic Dun Moch and a tactic Vader has favored multiple times in the past.
And with Vader pissed and intending to kill, I see little reason for Vader to go soft on him.Probably, but Force resistance is a pretty basic and formative power for Jedi & Sith alike. Luke is also stronger than both these individuals so at the very least could break free. Really it's just not logical to assume Vader could telekinetically dominate someone who can match if not surpass him in Force augmentation.Probably, but there are other ways they could have demonstrated telekinetically superiority and Force mastery in general, as they did in ESB.
Much like Kenobi stepped up to the challenge of facing and defeating Maul 1 v 1 when he was forced to at the end of TPM, even though his training also wasn't at a level to make him Maul's equal yet.
But Strange he could do both when Lucas claimed he wasn't trained well enough don't you think?
Not denying that. I've brought up the example of how well TPM Kenobi did against Maul, despite not being anywhere near as well trained as Maul was at the time.
I think physical challenge kind of covers that tbh. Or did you really expect him to say "Physical, Emotional and TK Challenge.." ?
That's not mentioned. But he did confirm Luke wasn't really his equal at this stage. Since I agree with you that he was a definite challenge in Sabers, I'm left to believe the reason he wasn't trained well enough to face Vader was his lack of TK Mastery in comparison to Vader's.
Plus looking throughout the Saga at examples like TCW Anakin vs Dooku, makes it clear even the guy with the highest potential, isn't going to have Dooku/Vader level of Force Mastery at such an early stage in his Jedi career. Perhaps if Luke stayed on Dagobah with Yoda he would have been the first to reach such an advanced stage so early (which is what it seems Lucas was referring to).
Again just looking at TCW Anakin vs Dooku, Vader's TK should at the very least give him the definitive edge over ROTJ Luke.
But fact is he didn't utilize TK against him for some reason (my guess would be to fight competitively against him), when there were definite gaps in the fight, so definite opportunities to do so.
Of course the real reason was inconsistent fight choreography throughout the saga, and Lucas not really knowing at the time where he was going with training level of different Jedi powers. But now when we put everything together we have to reanalyze it just as Lucas has done himself.
Last edited by Darth Thor on Nov 17th, 2015 at 02:28 PM
Nov 16th, 2015 05:03 PM
not that Luke's TK is what's important here.
