So a sufficiently strong willed and debriefed non-Force sensitive could have resisted Vitiate? Good to know.
It can't be a coincidence that there's such a strong correlation between how powerful in the Force someone is and how capable they are at resisting telepathy. Yes, willpower plays a role in your defenses, but willpower also plays a role in your ability to use the Force. Willpower may already be encoded in your Force defenses, and in either case, it's pretty simple to imagine there being two or more factors at play here. There's no reason to think that defending against a Force telepathic attack is mysteriously independent of Force mastery unlike guarding against everything else Force-related.
How is this a meaningful response? No, Caedus and Vader are not "infallible" at anything; this is not a substantive analysis of how novel Vitiate can break them when he's never broken anyone on their level.
Caedus has already experienced UnuThul's pull; he has dealt with telepathy before. Vader's will was such that he was able to survive being burned alive on sheer willpower. The burden is on you to demonstrate that Vitiate can do anything to them just because he can dominate pre-KotOR Revan and Malak on a dark side nexus.
Except there's no reason to think that they're equally potent.
It also takes some technique, yes, just as how it takes technique above mere Force potential to employ telekinesis. Caedus has already dealt with telepathy and employs it frequently himself, ditto with Vader. There's no reason to think that the techniques needed to resist Vitiate and UnuThul are fundamentally different - actually, you said precisely the opposite just above.
Heck, once again, you just shot yourself in the foot. You argued that Valkorion can't dominate the Outlander because the latter has dealt with Vitiate's TP before. You then said that UnuThul/Nyax and Vitiate's TP are of a similar nature. Ergo, Caedus shouldn't be affected by it, because he's dealt with UnuThul's TP before and would have come up with defenses like Revan did. GG.
Who has novel Vitiate broken off a dark side nexus that is so impressive?
The fact that their telepathy is similar in kind just knifes your entire argument, because it means that Caedus and Vader will have prior experience from generally experiencing telepathy.
It does not imply that they're similar in magnitude.
And you shoot yourself in the foot, as you always do, when you belittle Dooku's telepathic abilities; right, the power of the telepath does matter, hence why your trying to equate Vitiate and Nyax/UnuThul is ridiculous.
For the umpteenth time, why is this relevant? Nyax and Vitiate are not the same f*cking people. Seeing as how Nyax can take on Luke, Tahiri and Mara at the same time, he's evidently vastly more powerful. Novel Vitiate is weaker than Sidious, who couldn't defeat this Luke. The disparity is pretty enormous.
Again, Luke breaks away when he has to do something he has an aversion to thanks to memories. So if Nyax had commanded him to do pretty much anything significantly harmful, there's a chance Luke would've gotten the memories of "holy sh*t this is bad" and broken away.
This doesn't mean Mara is actively amping him - she isn't. Luke's pulling this off on his own, using his own memories.
That's great, except that before that sentence they were already successfully resisting him using only their own mental tricks.
"could be"? Based on what? Dominating pre-KotOR Revan/Malak, who were already on the precipice of the dark side, while on a nexus, and with prep, which Drew has stated helps him dominate people, and which he actually needs to do against powerful Force users? Seriously?
I got the lack of a logical equivalence between "they helped him" and "he needed their help".
You should hardly be the one to downplay accolades like "incredibly powerful" when such quotes span like 75% of your arguments. Regardless, UnuThul may not have refined his telepathy, but he more than compensate for this given that he's drawing on the equivalent of a midichlorian count of more than a trillion.
-----------
Overall, everything you've spewed out, aside from outright helping Caedus/Vader thanks to inadvertently admitting that they've already encountered "similar" telepathy multiple times, is predicated on the assumption that Vitiate's raw telepathic power compares to that of Nyax and UnuThul. You've done absolutely nothing to justify this claim, and yet you just continue to assert it as if I'm supposed to take your word on face value.
The most powerful person a non-amped, non-prepped Vitiate has dominated up to the events of the Revan novel is his f*cking father. There's nothing here to suggest that his telepathy will have any affect on the two combatants here.
I love how your reply to me asking for telepathy feats for novel Vitiate, which you claim are what you base his superiority over UnuThul/Nyax on, you just say "**** you", kek.
Nope. Luke struggled to resist him, while novel Vitiate's best showing is dominating pre-kotor Revan/Malak, who were already on the precipice of the dark side, and he does this on a dark side nexus and with prep that Drew stated in an email to be particularly important for him to pull off his telepathy.
Luke >>>> pre KOTOR Revan/Malak
Luke >>>> Vitiate's father
And you continue to avoid actually providing feats to back up your claim that novel Vitiate is actually a more dominating telepath than UnuThul.
Was that supposed to be witty or substantive?
Where are those feats, Legend?
Both of which Caedus and Vader possess in ample quantities.
Where are those feats, Legend?
Then show me the most powerful person that Vitiate dominates unaided up to the Revan novel, or do some sort of reasonable extrapolation to what his upper limit would be, rather than vaguely saying "well Caedus isn't infallible so that must mean that Vitiate can dominate him!"
There's that part that's missing where you actually provide said feats, lel.
Prove that Luke is more powerful than the Hero and pre-KotOR Revan? Are you f*cking kidding me?
Wait, I don't need to do that, since you've already agreed in prior debates that Palpatine > peak Revan and Luke > pre-DE Palpatine. GG
The burden of proof is on you, lol.
Oh? Prove that Vitiate can withstand Vader's saber throw.
Me: show me evidence.
You: **** YOU!
Still a better argument than what you can typically muster.
Legend, do you ever go back to your posts a little while after you read them, and if so, do you ever cringe a little? Because in addition to having sh*t tier logic, your writing skills are so horrible and awkward that they actual make you cringe.
"I laid down every useful bit of information here for others to understand" - oh my god.
Where are those feats, Legend?
Concession accepted.
Seeing as how the Hero is the most powerful, I'm doing you a favor by assuming that.
I don't recall any non-Force sensitive managing to resist Vitiate's Telepathy.
Never claimed otherwise.
Combination of following factors:-
High: Defensive Techniques
High: Willpower
High: Experience
Low: Raw power
Clear enough?
Again, what do you mean by level?
Revan is/was absolutely on there level.
UnuThul overwhelmed mental defenses of Jacen Solo during a face-to-face interaction. Memory problems much?
Enduring burns and resisting Telepathy are two different matters, requiring entirely different set of talents to accomplish. Willpower is involved in virtually every action performed.
Indeed! Vitiate's is more potent. Here is a comparison:
Lord Nyax
Then it answered-not in words, but in images. Luke saw the power of its will, expressed through the Force, rolling over the remaining people of Coruscant like water roaring down a canyon through a burst dam. He saw them sweeping across Coruscant, killing and eating everything in their way-the Yuuzhan Vong, the disobedient, the Force-blind. He saw the workers here boarding the machine beneath their feet, crashing it through kilometers of buildings until they came to some place, a source for more power to fuel this glorious, deliriously happy destructive impulse.
In that instant, Luke joined in the plan. He longed to slaughter the outsiders, those who did not understand or join. He longed to taste their flesh,
He turned to Mara, beckoning her to join. She was facing the Yuuzhan Vong warriors, preventing them from surprising Luke with an attack, but her gaze was yanked to Luke. Her eyes widened, and he could feel her leaning toward him, leaning toward acceptance of this crucial duty.
From Enemy Lines - Rebel Stand
---
Vitiate
"If your information proves false, however," the Emperor added, "you will suffer a fate more terrible than anything you can imagine."
As he spoke, the dark circles of his eyes seemed to fill with a swirling red mist, and for a brief instant the Emperor gave Scourge a glimpse of his
true self.
Scourge cried out in anguish as the Emperor's mind brushed against his, then he collapsed to the floor, shaking like a child. The touch lasted
less than a second, but in that time he witnessed indescribable horrors that dwarfed anything the dark side could conjure even in his worst
nightmares. And beneath the formless terrors lurked the unbearable Void, the pure emptiness of total annihilation.
It was over as quickly as it had begun, the awful vision retreating into his subconscious like a repressed memory as Scourge picked himself up
off the floor. Neither Captain Yarri nor the robed Sith made any move to help him.
From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
---
Vitiate is also more accomplished Telepath then Lord Nyax, based on holistic showings/feats.
Clear enough?
Jacen Solo failed to resist UnuThul's Telepathy during a face-to-face encounter. Drill this fact in your skull.
Palpatine brought Darth Vader to his knees from afar with his Telepathy.
Nexus argument is pointless and misleading. Provide evidence of Vitiate drawing on a nexus to perform actions with examples.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on May 1st, 2016 at 09:29 AM
Neither Darth Vader and nor Darth Caedus have experienced Telepathy of Lord Nyax. They never met.
Every Jedi learns a thing or two about mental defenses during formal training. However, this doesn't makes them foolproof against all forms of Telepathy. Mental defenses are not infallible.
Never stated that Count Dooku is a poor Telepath. However, Vitiate, Lord Nyax and UnuThul are infinitely superior Telepaths then him. Therefore, Count Dooku wouldn't have stood a chance at affecting Yoda with his Telepathic abilities but the other 3 do.
A > B > logic? Fantastic
You cannot just declare that Luke Skywalker (or any well-known character) can successfully resist Vitiate's Telepathy and be done with it. You have to be more specific about it and provide a better reasoning than Luke has great strength and willpower. You need to be specific about experiences of Luke against Telepaths that he came across and do they compare to Vitiate.
I have already established through my analysis that Vitiate and Lord Nyax have similar Telepathic abilities. However, I have also established that Vitiate is more intense and accomplished Telepath then Lord Nyax.
B/W Lord Nyax couldn't overcome unified mental defenses of Luke, Tahiri Veila and Mara Jade. But he could overcome their mental defenses individually.
It is not that simple.
Luke found the strength to resist Lord Nyax's Telepathy (first attempt) while looking at his wife who stirred memories in him. His wife set the stage for such aversion. In the absence of anybody familiar (and really close) to draw memories from, Luke would have fallen (he almost fell until he turned his attention towards his wife to convince her to join him as well).
No.
Lord Nyax targeted only Luke with his Telepathy [initially] and attempted to motivate him to kill Tahiri. However, Luke was prepared for such a move this time and drew on his memories with Tahiri to resist Lord Nyax's second Telepathic assault, reducing its effectiveness in this manner. But Luke did not just stop here, he reached out to Mara and Tahiri and assisted them in formulating a unified defensive front against Lord Nyax's Telepathy so that Lord Nyax won't be able to turn them against each other.
This shows that you are not paying proper attention to revelations. You are being disingenuous.
Revan was already the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy (perhaps history) when he confronted Vitiate for the first time. Terminology such as Pre-KoTOR is therefore meaningless. I have addressed the "precipice" aspect earlier.
Vitiate being prepared for Revan and Malak is a nebulous claim. It is same as Luke being prepared for Lord Nyax's Telepathy second time. None of this implies drawing energy from nexus and/or external environment in any way or form to perform the deed.
Both
And how did you figure out such midichlorian count? That raw power was not being (entirely) channeled into a single attack, it was being utilized by UnuThul to grow in power and overcome his shortcomings. UnuThul used to be a below-average Jedi earlier.
Vitiate >> UnuThul in the spectrum of Telepathic powers.
None of what I have disclosed helps those characters in any way. You have significant comprehension problems. Darth Vader and Jacen Solo never met Lord Nyax.
Non-amped and non-preppred are utterly misleading and disingenuous terms to use to discredit Vitiate's showings. You need to prove their validity first before flaunting them like some sort of evidence.
Vitiate had centuries to grow in power in comparison to UnuThul's mere years. Vitiate is described as an almost godlike avatar of the Dark Side at the time of his first meeting with Revan and Malak. He is stronger then every Force-user in history at this point (stronger then even Darth Nihilus).
UnuThul doesn't compares to even Darth Nihilus, forget Vitiate.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on May 1st, 2016 at 10:32 AM
OK buddy, your burden of proof - and it is your burden, given that you're suggesting a maneuver on Vitiate's part - is to demonstrate that Vitiate as of the Revan novel can mentally dominate Vader and/or Caedus. There are a few ways that you could do this:
1. Prove that his telepathy is some sort of unique power that can only be resisted by people who have encountered it before or have specifically trained against it - too bad you shot yourself in the foot by suggesting that it's actually the same kind of telepathy as the one that Caedus encountered (and Vader, by extension, from having been mentally f*cked by Palpatine) just of a different degree. In fact, you go a step further and claim that even the likes of Scourge and Meetra can stop him just by getting some lessons by Revan, because Revan has encountered his TP before. Well, Caedus has encountered Nyax's TP before, which you say is of the same general kind - so he can just use that to stave it off! After all, Scourge hadn't even seen his TP before and just needed some basic pointers, and he certainly isn't as powerful or skilled as Caedus, amirite?
2. Prove that the sheer power of his telepathy is too much for Caedus/Vader to resist. Your current tactic has been to establish that Vitiate's TP > Nyax's...by guessing how scary authorial descriptions of their invasions are, which is probably one of the worst arguments you've ever made in a litany of candidates, for a variety of reasons (.ie Scourge =/= Caedus, scarier =/= more effective brainwashing, the magnitude of the specific degree of TP Vitiate uses on Scourge can't be more effective because it doesn't actually dominate him so the method clearly doesn't work, etc.). Aside from what I suspect you're going to do, which is to employ some circular chain, you can only try to argue for this general point implicitly by showing me characters Vitiate has dominated whose raw power rivals that of Vader/Caedus. I could even let the nexus thing (which you hilariously claim doesn't affect Vitiate's power, even though that's precisely what nexuses do...); just show me who has he dominated, or how can you extrapolate what the upper limits of who he can dominate is, that puts his telepathy beyond the defensive capabilities that we can guess Vader and Caedus have from their raw power?
I see absolutely nothing of the sort in your reply, although it would be a routine task to point out all of the mundane logical fallacies replete in it.
__________________ Join the new Star Wars vs. forum: Suspect Insight Forums (not url'd for spam prevention)
You have comprehension problems, my friend. No wait! Serious comprehension problems. I figured out through my analysis that Vitiate's Telepathy is similar to that of Lord Nyax's. And Darth Caedus and Darth Vader never encountered Lord Nyax. Therefore, you are shooting yourself in the foot by posting utter nonsense.
I never claimed that even the likes of Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik could resist Vitiate's Telepathy. Lord Scourge experienced Vitiate's Telepathy beforehand and found it to be overwhelming. Later on, Lord Scourge had a vision in which he and the Jedi confront Vitiate and even in that vision, Vitiate Telepathically destroys Lord Scourge's mind in the end. We can assume that that vision depicts a scenario of what would become of them even after Revan's teachings and support. It is clearly stated in the novel that Vitiate would have overwhelmed Revan and his allies in a confrontation.
Vitiate's Telepathy packs sufficient intensity to overwhelm the wills of an entire populace of a planet, should he desire. On Ziost, he possessed scores of Jedi (Masters) along with countless Sith, battle-hardened troops. Neither Lord Nyax and nor UnuThul have comparable showings. Yet, UnuThul's relatively unrefined Telepathy was sufficient to penetrate Jacen Solo's mental defenses. It is safe to assume that Vitiate (a superior Telepath) will mind**** Jacen Solo.
Darth Vader is just as vulnerable as Jacen Solo was or perhaps worse.
Again, raw power of Darth Vader and Jacen Solo is largely irrelevant in this matter. Their mental defenses and experience would count the most and they lack in this aspect vis-a-vis Vitiate.
Moreover, Vitiate did not choose to break Lord Scourge, he just gave him a glimpse of what to expect should he be found guilty of aiding those who are rebelling against him. Read the novel and stop wasting my time.
Raw power again?
(please log in to view the image)
Are you a drinker? I am curious.
You are an idiot. Sorry, you have started to provoke me to judge you harshly with your silly, pathetic and misleading rants. No matter how much time and energy is invested to explain things to you, you come back to point zero and put forward same nonsense again and again. I have never come across an individual as dense as you.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on May 4th, 2016 at 05:29 AM
Your comebacks are so awkward they actually make me cringe.
So you think Vitiate's telepathy is more similar to Nyax's than UnuThul's is? Bullshit. UnuThul's and Nyax's are clearly described in similar language (giving you the feeling/desire to join them), whereas Vitiate's is vastly disparate (.ie scaring and horrifying you), so if Vitiate's is similar, UnuThul's certainly is. Caedus has encountered UnuThul before, so you've basically conceded that he could resist Vitiate, because that's why you think Revan and co. can.
That's...not stated in the novel, no. It's implied that the battle could have gone either way. Evidently, Vitiate couldn't overwhelm them, because, well, he didn't. Scourge's vision was of Vitiate doing something to him after he had already been defeated, which is a useless accomplishment for the purposes of a vs. debate.
You have, once again, conceded this debate by indicating that anyone who has experienced telepathy similar to Vitiate's can resist it, seeing as how that is your excuse for why the Outlander can.
So can Palpatine's. Vader has experienced Palpatine's TP, so by your logic, he can resist Vitiate's, seeing as how you think Vitiate's is similar to Nyax's more persuasive one, so Sidious's, which is likely far more hostile, certainly is.
LMAO if you think "scores of Jedi (masters)" and "countless Sith" are comparable to Luke Skywalker. Clearly it isn't, given that Valkorion concedes that the Outlander is too powerful for him to control.
BTW, Drew confirms that Vitiate needs prep to use his telepathy against powerful opponents, and he has neither that nor a nexus here. You, once again, have scant to actually show for your fanatical Vitiate masturbation.
You keep vacillating between dismissing the importance of raw power and bragging about how "Revan was already the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy" when Vitiate dominated him. Regardless, you have to provide some sort of analysis as to why defeating a Force-based attack doesn't correlate to your strength in the Force when every other Force defense does, and why Valkorion explicitly says that the Outlander is "too powerful" for him to dominate.
Your ability to grasp basic logic is honestly one of the worst out of any human being who has graduated high school that I've ever met. This statement is not a claim that fulfills your burden of proof, nor does it counter anything that I said. It's literally meaningless. And unfortunately, no matter how many hours of your life you waste on this mission of yours, it seems like your debating skills aren't going to improve, nor will you get any smarter.
What was that original contention of mine? Oh, right, it was pointing out that trying to prove Vitiate's superior TP by arguing that he scares Scourge more than Nyax scares Luke is probably one of the worst arguments conceived in the history of our species. Nyax really, really f*cking obviously isn't trying to scare Luke, he's trying to give Luke the desire to join and listen to him. They're different strategies, for f*ck's sake.
I love how you just assert that raw power has nothing to do with TP defense, and then brag about how powerful Revan and Malak were. I'd accuse anyone else of dishonesty, but honestly, I think you're just stupid.
And no, I'm not a regular drinker, although I'm still significantly smarter than you when I do.
I find it astounding that you talk with such a smug and condescending demeanor that suggests you actually think you're brilliant or something. Hasn't real life ever hit you with a cold bucket of water on your delusions? Hasn't school, or work, or your likely failure to achieve any impressive intellectual milestones? You're a laughing stock of pretty much everyone on these forums, even those who wank TOR. I'd feel sorry for you if you weren't also an insufferable *sshole, but thanks for being one, because now I feel more morally justified in mocking you.
__________________ Join the new Star Wars vs. forum: Suspect Insight Forums (not url'd for spam prevention)
Last edited by The Ellimist on May 5th, 2016 at 04:53 PM
The Outlander could be a Smuggler, I don't think it's a question of them being "too powerful" for him to control. It's more like it's their body he's in, so they call the shots. He's also got some kind of vested interest in the Outlander and in getting them to come over to his side willingly. He doesn't want or need another broken slave.
In fact if you choose the "why don't you just read my mind" option when he asks about your thoughts in chapter 9, he says that that would harm their alliance, and that the Outlander's mind is his own etc.
Your pathetic posts are actually cringe-worthy. I bring some arguments on the table, you repeat the same bullshit again and again (like a parrot) and it becomes boring.
Every Telepath can give you the feeling/desire to join him; this is not a valid argument. UnuThul's Telepathy is explicitly stated to be unrefined (I take this as an indication UnuThul is not a master of Telepathy). Vitiate's Telepathy is not unrefined.
Lord Nyax and Vitiate can brush the mind of a target and project horrifying images into it in an attempt to overwhelm the senses of a target until he is broke (I have already provided evidence to verify this assertion and also made a comparison to make it apparent who is more intense in this regard). UnuThul have not demonstrated this talent; UnuThul intrudes into the mind of a target and then projects commands into it! Nothing unique.
Here:
Betraying his allies had not altered the inevitable outcome; the Emperor would have won regardless. At least this way Scourge was still alive to
carry on their cause.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
Lord Scourge's premonitions gave him mixed-signals and puzzled him. In the end, he was not convinced of victory and decided to betray Meetra Surik at the last moment.
--
Lying on the feet injured, doesn't implies that your powers have diminished:
Sidious had been wondering if Plagueis had been weakened by the attack, but he saw now that, for all the punishment his body had sustained at the hands of the Maladian assassins, the Muun was no less strong in the Force.
"Your thoughts betray you," Plagueis said. "Do you think that Malak's powers were weakened by Revan's lightsaber? Bane by being encrusted in orbalisks? Do you think Gravid’s young apprentice was hindered by the prosthesis she was forced to wear after fighting him?"
"No, Master."
"Soon I will be stronger than you can possibly imagine."
Plagueis forced himself to swallow, then said, "But come, we have much to discuss."
Taken from Star Wars: Darth Plagueis
More examples to consider:
1. Vitiate mortally wounded Revan in a confrontation but Revan managed to heal his wounds and got back to his feet not long after, thanks in part to his allies.
2. Satele Shan and Jace Malcom mortally wounded Darth Malgus in a confrontation, burying him beneath the rubble. However, he endured it all and remained battle-capable afterwards (he managed to kill two Jedi in a confrontation before retreating).
Injuries may give you a pause or immobilize you for a while (if they are more severe) but they don't diminish your powers. Lord Scourge, while seemingly immobilized, would still have been capable of using his mental defenses against Vitiate but they didn't work.
Wrong! I haven't given you a concession in this regard (and I won't) because your argument is flawed. It is not necessary that anybody - who have experienced Vitiate's Telepathy - can resist it with success should he be subjected to it again. Master Surro managed to resist Vitiate's Telepathy on Ziost through her own willpower at some point (demonstrated in a cut-scene) but her success was temporary; Vitiate repossessed her afterwards, damaging her mind. The protagonist helped Surro breaking free from Vitiate's Telepathic hold afterwards but the entire ordeal left her in catatonic state.
Hero of Tython and Revan are exceptions, not the norm.
You need to establish first that how Palpatine's Telepathy is similar to that of Vitiate and Lord Nyax. Secondly, Darth Vader was not able to resist Palpatine's Telepathy. Therefore, you cannot argue his chances against Vitiate in this regard.
Individually, no! But sheer numbers are there and possessing such odds is far from easy. Luke Skywalker himself remarked that it is not easy to influence a Jedi Master.
Again, "too powerful" is an ambiguous term! It could imply that the Outlander's mental defenses are more formidable. However, there is more to this then meets the eye. Vitiate managed to bind himself to the Outlander forcefully, without the consent of the latter (see chapter 1). Vitiate was also able to project powerful visions into the mind of the Outlander while the latter was being kept in carbonite (see chapter 2). The above happens irrespective of the class. Therefore, your argument is subjective and weak here.
May 1st, 2016 08:32 AM
Based on what? Dominating pre-KotOR Revan/Malak, who were already on the precipice of the dark side, while on a nexus, and with prep, which Drew has stated helps him dominate people, and which he actually needs to do against powerful Force users? Seriously?
OK buddy, your burden of proof - and it is your burden, given that you're suggesting a maneuver on Vitiate's part - is to demonstrate that Vitiate as of the Revan novel can mentally dominate Vader and/or Caedus. There are a few ways that you could do this:
Your comebacks are so awkward they actually make me cringe.
