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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Massive Exar Kun telepathy feat.


Massive Exar Kun telepathy feat.
Started by: AncientPower

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The Ellimist
The Shadow

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States


 

Like if you asked me how I learned programming and I said that I read every book on the subject, would you take that literally or realize that I'm probably being hyperbolic/loose with my words?


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Old Post Jul 13th, 2016 08:53 PM
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Nephthys
The Gr8est!!!!!!!!

Registered: Dec 2007
Location: The End


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Beniboybling
That's my point, that they weren't literally blinded, merely failed to respond to what they were seeing. With the similar description of the senators as "forced to watch but not react" suggests more than just paralysis, but mind control.

And its just an inference really, the spell is mentioned in the Book of Sith as a mind-addling power spell supplants the thoughts of the victim with one's own. Or as Daniel Wallace described it in his endnotes "basically mind control, and therefore shows up in a lot of places. Essentially it's the "Jedi Mind Trick" but with a more dominating, sinister bent."

Most of the spells are sourced from TotJ so Kun mind controlling the Senate, and mind-controlling these technicians, seem the most likely candidates.

On top of that we've also got Aleema Keto using Sith magic to mind control scores of Krath chaos fighters, and Cartariun who raised army of semi-sentient creatures using the energies of a Sith Temple.


There's no evidence pointing to that interpretation. That reading completely ignores Kun saying he blinded them. Non-literal isn't non-existent. In the case of the spell, they aren't blinded in any way, but as you say "forced to watch" which, and I don't know if you know this but, is kind of the complete opposite of being blinded. And how does that suggest mind control over paralysis? Being forced to watch and unable to react is the perfect description for paralysis. The comic also depicts them with wide terrified eyes, frozen by Kun's power. They were paralyzed. You yourself say that the supposed spell puts them into a trance and the Book of Sith says that their thoughts are supplanted by the voice of the caster. Nothing like what happens in either case.

Why would Kun deliver a speech to a room of people whose thoughts are supplanted by his own voice? That's kind of..... insanely stupid.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Nice question begging, since the entire dispute is whether Exar a) is being truthful and b) cares about parsing his words exactly, not whether he himself knows what's going on. You say that he has no reason to lie since the guy is going to die - which is funny because he already has no reason to talk to him in the first place, but he is - it turns out that people sometimes do things for the f*ck of it, no less a dark lord. Our point, given this, is that it's more reliable to look at what makes more sense than to do a semantics analysis of his dialogue. And we can see that it makes absolutely no sense for every technician on the planet to be watching the arrival of a single ship, so blinding every one of them is entirely pointless. More realistically, he did it to those within a few kilometer, maybe few dozen kilometer square radius, .i.e. hundreds of technicians, an impressive but hardly top-tier feat.


This isn't a dispute so much as a barefaced attempt at lowballing that I'm humoring. There's no reason at all for Kun to be lying and the speculation that he might be doing it "for the f*ck of it" is laughable, toothless and pathetic. If you do go down that route though, I suggest you also throw out literally anything any character says because they might be lying for no reason other than, y'know, because. For consistency. So unless you're prepared to have every character statement thrown out immediately in every future debate you have, I'd suggest you drop this line of thought.

But just to thoroughly crush this line of thought, the reason Kun is talking to the guy is because it's a freaking audio book, and that's how you get information across to the audience. There is no reason for Kun to lie because he's a fictional character. What the actual question is, is why would the author lie to the audience? Predictably, the answer is that they wouldn't. That's also the answer to your second point. There's no reason for the author to put in misleading dialogue without payoff. They wanted Kun to say that, so that the audience would know what had happened. And since audio is the sole way to get across information, it has to be accurate unless purposefully contradicted at some point in the story. You need it to be clear on what happened because that's all the audience has to go on. So again, there's no reason to disbelieve Kun's words. When Kun says he blinded every technician on Cinnagar, thats the sole thing that author wanted us to consider with regards to the topic. And with nothing contradicting it, it is unquestionably supposed to be considered accurate.

No-one cares about realism. Kun punches a ghost to death and vaporises people with beams of hatred. Screw realism. Do you have any idea how many things in Star Wars completely fall apart the moment you bring in how things should work realistically into it? TFA had people seeing planets explode in real time from across the galaxy, jesus this is small potatoes. But anyway, Kun attacked the docking bay, its possible that sent an alert out to the scanning technicians that drew all attention to him. Or maybe you have no clue what you're talking about or how any of this works and it is equally possible that every technician would scan Kun's arrival. Or, like Ziggy says and you have failed to refute, Kun couldn't be sure which technician would scan him and so blinded them all. The reason is inconsequential, the feat is what it is and no nitpicking about how dumb or non-sensical you think it is changes anything.

And most importantly, it doesn't matter what you think about it. Your opinion is worthless compared to the actual text. Exar Kun's opinion >>>>>>>>>> Yours.


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Last edited by Nephthys on Jul 13th, 2016 at 09:45 PM

Old Post Jul 13th, 2016 09:38 PM
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The Ellimist
The Shadow

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
This isn't a dispute so much as a barefaced attempt at lowballing that I'm humoring. There's no reason at all for Kun to be lying and the speculation that he might be doing it "for the f*ck of it" is laughable, toothless and pathetic.


The distinction: we're not saying that Kun is wrong because he could be lying - that just opens the possibility. The actual argument is the fact that it doesn't make any sense because you don't need a planet to monitor a single ship.

quote:

If you do go down that route though, I suggest you also throw out literally anything any character says because they might be lying for no reason other than, y'know, because. For consistency. So unless you're prepared to have every character statement thrown out immediately in every future debate you have, I'd suggest you drop this line of thought.


Or we can do the opposite, and you take Sidious's belief that he's "succeeded where all others have failed in taming the dark side" as gospel too. thumb up

quote:

But just to thoroughly crush this line of thought, the reason Kun is talking to the guy is because it's a freaking audio book, and that's how you get information across to the audience. There is no reason for Kun to lie because he's a fictional character. What the actual question is, is why would the author lie to the audience? Predictably, the answer is that they wouldn't. That's also the answer to your second point. There's no reason for the author to put in misleading dialogue without payoff. They wanted Kun to say that, so that the audience would know what had happened. And since audio is the sole way to get across information, it has to be accurate unless purposefully contradicted at some point in the story. You need it to be clear on what happened because that's all the audience has to go on. So again, there's no reason to disbelieve Kun's words. When Kun says he blinded every technician on Cinnagar, thats the sole thing that author wanted us to consider with regards to the topic. And with nothing contradicting it, it is unquestionably supposed to be considered accurate.


So your reply to my previous claim of hypocrisy that you were accusing Sidious of lying is that Sidious didn't have as much information to compare himself to everyone before him, etc. Well, thanks for destroying your own point with this authorial intent angle. Remember the New Essential Chronology, which claimed that Sidious was the most powerful sith in galactic history? Do you think the author was thinking about subtly hinting that the in-universe historian was just wrong, or talking about political power? Nah.

quote:

No-one cares about realism. Kun punches a ghost to death and vaporises people with beams of hatred. Screw realism. Do you have any idea how many things in Star Wars completely fall apart the moment you bring in how things should work realistically into it? TFA had people seeing planets explode in real time from across the galaxy, jesus this is small potatoes.


There's a difference between violating real life empirical scientific relationships and violating basic logic. If you think we can do the latter, then how the f*ck do we generate a debate in the first place?

Aren't all of your arguments attempts to logically parse arguments too? Wait, doesn't this also kill your "Sidious can't really destroy the imperial palace" claim? After all, that's talking about his knowledge of history, .i.e. "realism".

laughing It's almost like you're setting the precedent to destroy every one of your own positions that you've ever had here.

quote:

But anyway, Kun attacked the docking bay, its possible that sent an alert out to the scanning technicians that drew all attention to him.


Except he says they all watched him land.

quote:

Or maybe you have no clue what you're talking about or how any of this works and it is equally possible that every technician would scan Kun's arrival.


They need technicians spread out across the entire planet to scan a single ship's arrival, when there were likely hundreds of thousands arriving at the same time? roll eyes (sarcastic)

quote:

Or, like Ziggy says and you have failed to refute, Kun couldn't be sure which technician would scan him and so blinded them all.


Yeah, he couldn't be sure that the technician on the other side of the planet wouldn't watch him below up a docking bay. thumb up

quote:

The reason is inconsequential, the feat is what it is and no nitpicking about how dumb or non-sensical you think it is changes anything.

And most importantly, it doesn't matter what you think about it. Your opinion is worthless compared to the actual text. Exar Kun's opinion >>>>>>>>>> Yours.


And Sidious's opinion >>>>>>>>>> yours by the same logic. Thanks.

Oh, in the Plagueis novel Sidious speculates that he's the most powerful Force user ever. thumb up


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Old Post Jul 13th, 2016 10:24 PM
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AncientPower
The Chosen One

Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force


 

Did you just equate generic space traffic to what scanners would pick up from a heavily armed Sith battleship coming in and blasting a docking bay? This is Empress Teta ffs, do you even know why he has to make sure he doesn't alert the city to his attack? I doubt that heavily.

The city is in war time, the Krath have been fighting numerous battles against the Republic navy, in this very system. They're on alert for any kind of attack by invading ships. A Battleship is going to be the immediate source of attention for towers who are on alert for warships.

You're also hilariously ignoring that when the Jedi Star Sabers attacked, they were immediately picked up and the entire city rallied its forces in a counter-offensive. This is literally just after Exar Kun finds his way to the Iron Citadel and he uses the Jedi attack as another distraction whilst he makes his own progress.


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Old Post Jul 13th, 2016 11:56 PM
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Beniboybling
Worst Member

Registered: Jul 2014
Location: United Kingdom


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
There's no evidence pointing to that interpretation. That reading completely ignores Kun saying he blinded them. Non-literal isn't non-existent. In the case of the spell, they aren't blinded in any way, but as you say "forced to watch" which, and I don't know if you know this but, is kind of the complete opposite of being blinded. And how does that suggest mind control over paralysis? Being forced to watch and unable to react is the perfect description for paralysis. The comic also depicts them with wide terrified eyes, frozen by Kun's power. They were paralyzed. You yourself say that the supposed spell puts them into a trance and the Book of Sith says that their thoughts are supplanted by the voice of the caster. Nothing like what happens in either case.

Why would Kun deliver a speech to a room of people whose thoughts are supplanted by his own voice? That's kind of..... insanely stupid.
Because they were forced to watch, paraylsis alone doesn't force you to do anything. If you were looking at your shoes, or nodding the **** off, you wouldn't see jack shit. Evidently Kun's spell forced them to watch what Kun wanted them too. So yeah mind control. And like by controlling someone's mind you can make them do different shit, like force them to watch something, or make them fail to respond to what they are seeing...

But nah I expect Kun has a spell for each and every one. roll eyes (sarcastic)


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Old Post Jul 14th, 2016 12:11 AM
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The Ellimist
The Shadow

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by AncientPower
Did you just equate generic space traffic to what scanners would pick up from a heavily armed Sith battleship coming in and blasting a docking bay? This is Empress Teta ffs, do you even know why he has to make sure he doesn't alert the city to his attack? I doubt that heavily.

The city is in war time, the Krath have been fighting numerous battles against the Republic navy, in this very system. They're on alert for any kind of attack by invading ships. A Battleship is going to be the immediate source of attention for towers who are on alert for warships.

You're also hilariously ignoring that when the Jedi Star Sabers attacked, they were immediately picked up and the entire city rallied its forces in a counter-offensive. This is literally just after Exar Kun finds his way to the Iron Citadel and he uses the Jedi attack as another distraction whilst he makes his own progress.


And how do you think such countermeasures work? You'd have squads of technicians (in this case) watching out for a particular zone, and alerting the rest of the city to possible attack. Tell me, how exactly would someone on the other side of the city "watch" Exar Kun lower his ship, and how the f*ck are they all conveniently watching him and not every other ship that landed in the city at the exact same time?


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Old Post Jul 14th, 2016 01:44 AM
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AncientPower
The Chosen One

Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force


 

It is obviously a network of systems, as Exar Kun hears the verbal alert from other towers when the Jedi Starsabers attacked Cinnagar. It's a single system with towers all across the city. Exar Kun 'blinded' every scanning technician that detected his approach to the planet and stopped any of them from sounding an alert so the Krath fleet could intercept him.


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Old Post Jul 14th, 2016 04:42 AM
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SunRazer
Back From The Dead

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: The distant past


 

Even if it was just Kun disabling Cinnegar's tracking technology, that'd still be pretty good.

Still, Force-flash is not a dark side technique (it's mostly used by Jedi in DNT/LotF/FotJ), so that can't be it. I'm on board with the hypnosis/TP argument. I don't know why it's hard to accept, anyway. Lately, it seems like people aren't willing to take on board any new (big) showings.

Old Post Jul 14th, 2016 04:44 AM
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AncientPower
The Chosen One

Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force


 

Given he is specifically referring to people, not technology, then there is no basis at all for that 'interpretation'.

The hypocrisy is real though, Palpatine did the same thing to everybody who 'saw' the Lusankya burial. But nobody bats an eye at that feat.


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Old Post Jul 14th, 2016 04:47 AM
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AncientPower
The Chosen One

Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force


 

The following shows Wedge Antilles wondering that the Emperor's powers had 'compelled' the witnesses of the Lusankya's burial to 'forget' the incident, but also considers it more likely that the witnesses were killed:

quote:
Could the Emperor's power through the dark side of the Force have been sufficient to compel thousands or millions of people to forget having seen the Lusankya being buried? As hideous as that idea seemed, Wedge hoped it was the truth. The likely alternative—that the Emperor had ordered the deaths of all the_witnesses—seemed that much more horrible.
-_X-Wing: Krytos Trap


Here we have confirmation of Palpatine's 'mind-fogging powers' at work:

quote:
Now director of the Imperial Intelligence, Ysanne worked to demonstrate the usefulness of her office to the only person that mattered—the Emperor. Impressed with her suggestion to build a combination internment center and brainwashing facility, Palpatine gave her the Super Star Desteroyer_from the Kuat shipyards—a twin to Vader’s_from Fondor. She renamed the vessel_Lusankya, and, with help from the Emperor’s mind-fogging powers, Imperial engineers buried the tremendous battleship beneath the cityscape in Coruscant’s Manarai Mountain district.
- The New Essential Guide to Characters


So we have clear precedence for powerful Sith sensing a mass of witnesses to an event and the following 'fogging' of their collective minds.

In case anybody fails to grasp the sense prowess of Exar Kun:

quote:
He searched, sending his thoughts like a probe deep into the storm systems of the gas giant. Behind him, Kyp felt the black-ice power of Exar Kun arise, tapping into him and reinforcing his abilities. His own feeble exploratory touch suddenly plunged forward like a blaster bolt. Kyp felt larger, a part of the jungle moon, then a part of the entire planetary system, until he burrowed into the heart of the gas giant itself.
- Jedi Academy Trilogy: Dark Apprentice


quote:
With his mind he reached across the galaxy and detected other users of Sith magic in the Empress Teta system.
- The New Essential Chronology


He's evidently capable of replicating the feat, and no, appeals to character fallibility regarding the statement are not persuasive when said statement is bound to a purely audio media. In which character statements are used as direct explanations for story development purposes.


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Old Post Jul 14th, 2016 05:34 AM
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S_W_LeGenD
Senior Member

Registered: Nov 2006
Location: EARTH


 

^^^

thumb up

Old Post Jul 14th, 2016 06:00 AM
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XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The Immortal Emperor

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: The Eternal Throne


 

Where's the story draft, LeGenD? smile


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Old Post Jul 14th, 2016 06:25 AM
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S_W_LeGenD
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Where's the story draft, LeGenD? smile

Patience my friend. I am working on it.

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Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Jul 14th, 2016 at 07:23 AM

Old Post Jul 14th, 2016 07:17 AM
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The Ellimist
The Shadow

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by AncientPower
It is obviously a network of systems, as Exar Kun hears the verbal alert from other towers when the Jedi Starsabers attacked Cinnagar. It's a single system with towers all across the city. Exar Kun 'blinded' every scanning technician that detected his approach to the planet and stopped any of them from sounding an alert so the Krath fleet could intercept him.


Exactly, and my point is that doesn't cover every single technician in the planet, which would be ridiculous.


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Old Post Jul 14th, 2016 10:17 AM
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AncientPower
The Chosen One

Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force


 

It's evidently a network of scanners across the city all alert for an enemy fleet attack, Kun states he had an effect on every scanning technician in Cinnagar, blinding all of them. If it was so impossible, Palpatine wouldn't have accomplished the same bloody thing.


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Old Post Jul 14th, 2016 11:26 AM
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The_Tempest
Senior Member

Registered: Sep 2012
Location: United States


 

This thread lmao.

Watching Neph stumble under the weight of his own hypocrisy continues to be a riveting spectacle.

AP, I don't even know where to begin with you.

Old Post Jul 14th, 2016 11:30 AM
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Beniboybling
Worst Member

Registered: Jul 2014
Location: United Kingdom


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by AncientPower
It's evidently a network of scanners across the city all alert for an enemy fleet attack, Kun states he had an effect on every scanning technician in Cinnagar, blinding all of them. If it was so impossible, Palpatine wouldn't have accomplished the same bloody thing.
Elm isn't arguing that it's impossible (not that Palpatine being capable of something similar makes it possible for Kun), just unnecessary.

In fact by your logic conjecture, Palpatine would have had to blind every person/scanning technician on Coruscant. He did not.


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Old Post Jul 14th, 2016 11:31 AM
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AncientPower
The Chosen One

Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force


 

He can make appeals to common sense in a laughably fantastical IP as he wishes, but then we're suddenly scrutinizing every feat that is even remotely vague, using that logic.

He made every witness to the event forget what they saw, Exar Kun is doing the same thing. All of these scanning technicians are working on a network together, if one of them sees, they all do. As evidenced by 1.Exar Kun's very specific choice of words. 2.The fact Kun himself hears an alert sounded on the network about a Jedi attack.

Moreover, Exar Kun states he foresaw everything that happened, meaning he'd already planned it in advance using farsight.


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Last edited by AncientPower on Jul 14th, 2016 at 11:41 AM

Old Post Jul 14th, 2016 11:35 AM
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Beniboybling
Worst Member

Registered: Jul 2014
Location: United Kingdom


 

And yet I'm seeing multiple appeals to "common sense" (read baseless assumptions) in attempting to quantify the number of technicians present, and how the system of traffic control functioned.

A double-standard perhaps? No can't be.


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Old Post Jul 14th, 2016 11:49 AM
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AncientPower
The Chosen One

Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force


 

Lol we have evidence of how their system works, its a network that is monitored by technicians. The population is 310,000,000,000, thats a lot of scanning and monitoring, even moreso during a war with a super power.


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Old Post Jul 14th, 2016 11:57 AM
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