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Iron Fist/w Prep vs Batman, Cassandra Cain, & Nightwing
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leonidas
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his only chance would be a surprise AOE attack. i could actually see it happening in a one-fight scenario where they know nothing about him. even if it didn't kill or ko them it would likely take one or 2 and weaken the others to the point he could chi blast them or take them out.

if it comes to melee, he has no chance to beat all 3 of them.


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Old Post Aug 21st, 2016 01:31 PM
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golem370
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He has k.o'ed Luke Cage so if he hit two of them with that level it should take their heads off or at the very least destroy their spine right?


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Old Post Aug 21st, 2016 01:39 PM
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StiltmanFTW
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As for simulations, Iron Man (modular suit) solo'd the X-Men simulation... and even Tony's ego didn't stop him from admitting the real X-Men would've given him more trouble.

Ultimate Wolverine easily completed Ult. Beast's X-Men sim, sustaining only minimal damage, getting hit just once.

Nightwing broke Bane's back in the sim... laughing out loud

--
They may be nice feats, but in the end, the sim performance =/= performance against real threats.


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quote: (post)
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Fail.

The vibranium in Cap's shield is the Wakandan variety, adamantium is not weak to it at all.

You're thinking of Antarctic vibranium, also known as anti-metal.


It's made of both vibranium and adamantium. Why wouldn't it be able to hurt adamantium if enough force is applied to it?

It even has hurt Ultron when he was made out of adamantium. Then again that could have been secondary adamantium or whatever.

If something is similarly tough, and thrown at something just as tough? There's damage if they hit each other hard enough.

Old Post Aug 21st, 2016 01:43 PM
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StiltmanFTW
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Because vibranium adds nothing to the mix, offense-wise. It's great for defensive purposes, though, absorbing tons of kinetic energy.


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Old Post Aug 21st, 2016 01:47 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Because vibranium adds nothing to the mix, offense-wise. It's great for defensive purposes, though, absorbing tons of kinetic energy.


Which Captain America's shield doesn't actually do because if it did every one of its hits would be useless. As it would absorb kinetic energy when it is both used in defense, and in offense.

Which is again contradicted by things such as Wolverine's claws causing sparks when they hit it. If it absorbed kinetic energy there wouldn't be any force there to be begin, and ergo no sparks.

http://i.stack.imgur.com/qAJnG.jpg

This vibranium is obviously not normal, and adamantium should be able to hurt adamantium if enough force is applied.

Unless only specific parts of it are vibranium, and specific parts of it are adamantium.

Old Post Aug 21st, 2016 01:57 PM
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riv6672
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Because vibranium adds nothing to the mix, offense-wise. It's great for defensive purposes, though, absorbing tons of kinetic energy.

This is why i just laughed, it didnt invite conversation. stick out tongue


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Old Post Aug 21st, 2016 02:06 PM
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Re: Iron Fist/w Prep vs Batman, Cassandra Cain, & Nightwing

quote: (post)
Originally posted by golem370
Iron Fist has full knowledge of his opponents skills and equipment. What happens? The only thing the team knows is he is highly trained martial arts expert.


You've got it backwards. It's the team who needs prep.

Danny can beat the team outright.


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Old Post Aug 21st, 2016 02:08 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by riv6672
This is why i just laughed, it didnt invite conversation. stick out tongue


Yes, it does because Captain America's shield clearly does not absorb kinetic energy otherwise it would be useless as a weapon. So, chances are it is Antarctic vibranium or some different vibranium altogether. That, or being mixed with adamantium drastically changed it.

The most out there explanation is that Captain America can somehow control when it absorbs kinetic energy, and when it doesn't absorb kinetic energy but he has no such abilities.

Old Post Aug 21st, 2016 02:11 PM
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StiltmanFTW
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sharivan
Which Captain America's shield doesn't actually do because if it did every one of its hits would be useless. As it would absorb kinetic energy when it is both used in defense, and in offense.


Yeah, typical comic book magic... same with Sue Richards being able to see while invisible or Class 100 characters getting pierced with knives or bullets.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sharivan
Which is again contradicted by things such as Wolverine's claws causing sparks when they hit it. If it absorbed kinetic energy there wouldn't be any force there to be begin, and ergo no sparks.

http://i.stack.imgur.com/qAJnG.jpg


When they fought for the first time in the Cap Annual, there were sparks, too. Doesn't mean much, the shield is still renowned for its excellent kinetic energy absorption, allowing Steve to survive hits from characters like the Hulk.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sharivan
This vibranium is obviously not normal, and adamantium should be able to hurt adamantium if enough force is applied.


Adamantium cannot damage other adamantium, it's been stated and shown numerous times in comics. We're not discussing movies here.

http://s249.photobucket.com/user/Mo...k49_18.jpg.html


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Old Post Aug 21st, 2016 02:14 PM
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riv6672
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sharivan
Yes, it does because Captain America's shield clearly does not absorb kinetic energy otherwise it would be useless as a weapon. So, chances are it is Antarctic vibranium or some different vibranium altogether. That, or being mixed with adamantium drastically changed it.

The most out there explanation is that Captain America can somehow control when it absorbs kinetic energy, and when it doesn't absorb kinetic energy but he has no such abilities.


^^^what a maroon.


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Last edited by riv6672 on Aug 21st, 2016 at 02:21 PM

Old Post Aug 21st, 2016 02:14 PM
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cdtm
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
his only chance would be a surprise AOE attack. i could actually see it happening in a one-fight scenario where they know nothing about him. even if it didn't kill or ko them it would likely take one or 2 and weaken the others to the point he could chi blast them or take them out.

if it comes to melee, he has no chance to beat all 3 of them.


Why would that be his only chance?

The only character who comes remotely close to him in the speed department is Cassandra Cain. And his damage soak isn't exactly chopped liver:

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That's Prince of Orphans Kamehamehaing Danny out of K'un L'un to Earth (Different dimensions.)

And he comes in like Wolverine after Cap knocked him out of the plane in AvX, without a scratch, so it's not all energy resistance.

Also, Danny himself can throw chi balls around:


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Old Post Aug 21st, 2016 02:18 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Yeah, typical comic book magic... same with Sue Richards being able to see while invisible or Class 100 characters getting pierced with knives or bullets.


No, you don't get to handwave it. Those characters being hurt by knives and bullets doesn't make any sense whatsoever either. I want an actual explanation for this not "comic book magic."

quote:
When they fought for the first time in the Cap Annual, there were sparks, too. Doesn't mean much, the shield is still renowned for its excellent kinetic energy absorption, allowing Steve to survive the hits from characters like the Hulk.


Yet, it clearly doesn't the thousands of times it's used as a weapon.

This is clearly not consistent in it's portrayal, and the writers are being idiots again.

I am not really surprised.

quote:
Adamantium cannot damage other adamantium, it's been stated and shown numerous times in comics. We're not discussing movies here.

http://s249.photobucket.com/user/Mo...k49_18.jpg.html


By Moon Knight who isn't anywhere near as strong as Daniel Rand. You need an actual significant amount of force behind an attack in order to damage something made out of the same material.

It's no different than not being able to cut barbed wires without the right kind of scissors.

Old Post Aug 21st, 2016 02:22 PM
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krisblaze
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I don't think anyone's using the simulations to argue that Danny wins this.

Rather his history of clearly superhuman feats.


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Old Post Aug 21st, 2016 02:24 PM
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leonidas
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by cdtm
Why would that be his only chance?

The only character who comes remotely close to him in the speed department is Cassandra Cain. And his damage soak isn't exactly chopped liver:

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That's Prince of Orphans Kamehamehaing Danny out of K'un L'un to Earth (Different dimensions.)

And he comes in like Wolverine after Cap knocked him out of the plane in AvX, without a scratch, so it's not all energy resistance.

Also, Danny himself can throw chi balls around:


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i am certainly not going into a feat war here. bats has some crazy damage soak feats and durability feats of his own, has feats to show he is close in speed and dick wouldn't be far behind imo. cass and bats are as skilled (debatably more skilled) and dick is close as well. all 3 also have all their typical gear, and all 3 act as a great team. i don't see any way he takes them 3 on 1 without a surprise attack doing some great damage. if it comes to just cqc they take him out every time imo.


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Old Post Aug 21st, 2016 02:27 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by riv6672
^^^what a maroon.


*Moron.

Old Post Aug 21st, 2016 02:29 PM
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StiltmanFTW
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sharivan
No, you don't get to handwave it. Those characters being hurt by knives and bullets doesn't make any sense whatsoever either. I want an actual explanation for this not "comic book magic."


Well, you need to wait for some writer to make one, then. It'll be a long wait...

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sharivan
Yet, it clearly doesn't the thousands of times it's used as a weapon.

This is clearly not consistent in it's portrayal, and the writers are being idiots again.

I am not really surprised.


Yes, he can even hurt guys like Ultimus or Wonder Man with a single shield throw... and nonetheless can also do stuff like wading through Cyclops' optic blast, which is a pure concussive force...

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sharivan
By Moon Knight who isn't anywhere near as strong as Daniel Rand. You need an actual significant amount of force behind an attack in order to damage something made out of the same material.

It's no different than not being able to cut barbed wires without the right kind of scissors.


Not by MK and not by Wolverine, either.

Even if it could get damaged - it can't and it's a rather well-known fact - Danny is not really strong enough to perform such a feat.

Refrain from using the simulation showings, as they are dubious at best.


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Old Post Aug 21st, 2016 02:43 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Well, you need to wait for some writer to make one, then. It'll be a long wait...


Then we have to go by our own analysis if there isn't one. Since it clearly doesn't absorb kinetic energy then the vibranium it's made out of isn't normal.

quote:
Yes, he can even hurt guys like Ultimus or Wonder Man with a single shield throw... and nonetheless can also do stuff like wading through Cyclops' optic blast, which is a pure concussive force...


You mean how Cyclops was able to push him back with his optic blasts, and how Captain America had to push through it instead of simply strolling through it?

http://i.imgur.com/X32S20o.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/x6uIBuA.jpg

That example supports my argument that it doesn't actually absorb kinetic energy.

quote:
Not by MK and not by Wolverine, either.

Even if it could get damaged - it can't and it's a rather well-known fact - Danny is not really strong enough to perform such a feat.

Refrain from using the simulation showings, as they are dubious at best.


Danny is able to hit hard enough to take down helicarriers, send Skaar flying with a punch, defeat the Wrecking Crew, break Thunderball's wrecking ball, and break out of the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak.

As well as being able to use chi in order to enhance the striking force of inanimate objects. As seen in the battle simulation with those bullets.

Old Post Aug 21st, 2016 03:04 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
i am certainly not going into a feat war here. bats has some crazy damage soak feats and durability feats of his own, has feats to show he is close in speed and dick wouldn't be far behind imo. cass and bats are as skilled (debatably more skilled) and dick is close as well. all 3 also have all their typical gear, and all 3 act as a great team. i don't see any way he takes them 3 on 1 without a surprise attack doing some great damage. if it comes to just cqc they take him out every time imo.


Not my intent to feat war this. Simply trying to prove Danny can take a beating and won't drop at the first gang attack. (Further supporting this, Luke Cage clocked berserk/evil Danny in the back of the head, as hard as he could, and only dropped him to his knee, conscious. So chi amping should raise durability.)

Anyways, I know Batman's no pushover in damage soak himself. He could give Frank Castle a run for his money, using his best stuff..

But unless the Bat Family packs secondary adamantium, how are they going to keep themselves from being taken out by Iron Fist spamming? You saw the Black Panther vs Danny scans, right? Only posted about a million times, until even I got sick of seeing them. smile

He was messed up pretty badly, and he had a vibranium suit.

So lets say all three surround Danny, move in, and launch an attack. Assume Danny takes a beating, but is with it enough to lash out with an IF.

If any of them take a direct hit, can you see them walking away? Or even if it's a glancing blow/near miss, the Iron Fist has chi trails and creates a sonic boom effect. In many, many Iron Fist stories of the past, he's taken entire groups with a single Fist. Batroc's Brigade, a mob of fifty people when Claremont sent him to "hell", a group of terrorist's in Danny and Luke's early team up's (Luke Cage was knocked down from the shockwave himself, from across the room.)

I'm just wondering how you see this fight playing out, that puts him at a disadvantage.

Maybe if Danny doesn't chi spam or use his IF... But are we assuming he fights "fair" and doesn't chi spam?


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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
i am certainly not going into a feat war here. bats has some crazy damage soak feats and durability feats of his own, has feats to show he is close in speed and dick wouldn't be far behind imo. cass and bats are as skilled (debatably more skilled) and dick is close as well. all 3 also have all their typical gear, and all 3 act as a great team. i don't see any way he takes them 3 on 1 without a surprise attack doing some great damage. if it comes to just cqc they take him out every time imo.


You do recall that time Danny defeated Davos without his chi? When Davos had it, and when he had the accumulated knowledge of every Iron Fist that died in the Anomaly Gem? Simply by being that much of a better martial artist?

Iron Fist v2 #2

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Old Post Aug 21st, 2016 03:55 PM
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