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Spiderman VS Wolverine in a headbutt fest
Started by: Dareangel

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StiltmanFTW
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You really should consider taking a break from kmc, blue.

Actually, it looks more like Logan got briefly stunned than KO'd... but hey, you could argue it was a flash KO that lasted the whole panel, if you wanted it so bad.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Here he is, falling headfirst from altitude, through multiple concrete levels, and ready to fight:
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UXF Annual by Robert Kirkman. I was going to post that, heh. We've got some telepathic link between us, carver is gonna be sooo jelly love

---------

Almost gave Shulkie a concussion:

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Last edited by StiltmanFTW on Apr 10th, 2017 at 10:20 PM

Old Post Apr 10th, 2017 10:15 PM
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StiltmanFTW
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And let's not forget what happened when Peter faced Jennifer:

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Old Post Apr 10th, 2017 10:18 PM
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Ize19
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Doubtful.

If that was Stiltman's point, he unnecessarily wasted a lot of time focusing on the fact that Wolverine quickly RECOVERED from getting knocked out, instead of simply saying "Hey, that's a nerve pinch, that doesn't belong here!"

Instead, he took the time to point out, by posting several scans, that AFTER momentarily blanking out, Wolverine's healing factor allowed Wolverine to get back in the game.

Of course the most predictable thing in the world will be for Stilt to say NOW, after your comment "Why, yes, yes that was my point, Ize19", but it's moot, 'cause he didn't lead off with anything of that sort. YOU did, who have your own axe to grind.

And that post about the Shocker isn't irrelevant, only incomplete.
I WANTED someone to comment on that, as you did just now, which is why I even asked a question to be answered when I just gave that post.

Because it's the counter to what Stilt DID originally make a point of, which is that Wolverine recovered from the damage Spock did in seconds.

But that doesn't negate the fact that Wolverine WAS knocked out, anymore than the following negates the fact that Shocker knocked Spider-Man t.f.o. ...

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You're the one who posted the Spock scan. Then when Stilt showed that it disabled him for virtually no time at all, you made a post stating that your own scan was in fact more irrelevant than his scans had indicated, since it had nothing to do with general durability and it wasn't actually canon. So yeah, when he said "think before you post," he was saying if you know something's irrelevant, don't bother posting it.

I understood the point of your spidey scans, that wasn't exactly a twist ending, my point was that it was just as irrelevant as the Spock scan, since all it was doing was supporting that Wolverine was knocked out by a technique that temporarily bypassed his durability, not overrode it, and that isn't even canon. So it doesn't matter. Which you already knew, because you made those points, not us, which is why I am very confused as to why you're trying to drag us down this rabbit hole.


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Old Post Apr 10th, 2017 10:36 PM
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bluewaterrider
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[QUOTE=16168840]Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
You really should consider taking a break from kmc, blue.


Gonna be going to dinner soon, so don't worry.

She-Hulk is all over the place in terms of strength and durability. Possibly the only person with greater inconsistency in toughness that I can think of at this moment is DC's Wonder Woman.


D.S. I'm aware Wolverine has taken some good hits with surprising aplomb.
The following would be a good example, for instance:
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Interesting to note here, too, Gorgon can use his strength to create remarkable environmental effects ...
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... but as shown in that scan above, Gorgon DOESN'T necessarily operate in the class of people like Hulk.

Worthwhile to point out, though, knockouts don't depend on sheer force alone.
That's true in real life and in comics. It's also difficult to predict based solely on appearances. Does the following look as impressive as the World War Hulk (WWH) barrage you keep talking about for instance? Yet what punch ultimately proves most effective?
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And Wolverine staying conscious from Namor cratering him does little to convince me more specifically head-directed force, even of lesser magnitude, will leave him conscious. Wolvy would have arguably been able to take the following if that were true:

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Old Post Apr 10th, 2017 10:50 PM
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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ize19

I understood the point of your spidey scans, that wasn't exactly a twist ending, my point was that it was just as irrelevant as the Spock scan, since all it was doing was supporting that Wolverine was knocked out by a technique that temporarily bypassed his durability, not overrode it, and that isn't even canon. So it doesn't matter. Which you already knew, because you made those points, not us, which is why I am very confused as to why you're trying to drag us down this rabbit hole.


You're not following this discussion very well if you honestly think what you just wrote, Ize.

Nor are you being objective by ignoring the sort of things D.S. has been posting both to initiate and continue this discussion throughout the thread.

Old Post Apr 10th, 2017 11:09 PM
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StiltmanFTW
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Read the comics you're posting scans from. You've been posting here for 10 years, don't play dumb.

1) Wolverine landed in Georgia (the country, not the state) and was still conscious.

2) Logan in his first appearance, with no adamantium skeleton or healing factor, who already withstood a "bone-shattering" impact and just recovered from a magical spell? Try better.

3) Healed from a bare skeleton, fought Namor's Royal Guard and it took several strikes from Namor, not one.


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Old Post Apr 10th, 2017 11:28 PM
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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ize19

Any top martial artist can completely separate someones head from their shoulders with a kick? Fine, show me any not explicitly superhuman martial artist doing so. One.



Earlier you responded to one of my challenges in this thread, albeit to Stilt, not yourself. I'll repay the courtesy, partly OUT of courtesy, also because it will help illustrate a point. Exhibit A will be one Elizabeth Braddock, a.k.a. Psylocke. To which you can presumably respond "Psylocke is explicitly superhuman!"
But the answer is, of course, that, during the time of this comic, Psylocke's abilities did not enhance her physical strength beyond relatively normal fit human levels. And she's not using them on her mech-opponent anyway, as the dialogue makes fairly clear:

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The second showing here is from some random, human-as-far-as-I-know girl who calls herself The Dragonfly. She's here shattering what looks like solid stone. Psylocke not using her mental abilities to strike the head off a mecha is the more proper answer to your challenge; this one I'm showing mainly because of the point made in the dialogue. Note Madame Qwa reprimanding Dragonfly for being sloppy in her strikes and having labored breathing.
The point Madame Qwa is obviously trying to make is that, done right, martial arts make striking and destroying EASIER from a physical strength standpoint, not harder. The scan that follows is just to demonstrate that Dragonfly is human. A zap from Electro puts her right to sleep. The third scan is just so people can I.D. Where the showing is from.

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I found out where that Wolverine feat I was trying to describe yesterday was.
You know that pool-punching incident?
It's apparently from a graphic novel titled "Bloody Choices".
The Wolverine-looking villain's name is "Shiv". His boss is someone named "Bullfinch". Stumbling across a poorer quality version of the 2nd of the following images after Googling everything I could think of yielded that.

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Old Post Apr 11th, 2017 12:01 AM
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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Read the comics you're posting scans from. You've been posting here for 10 years, don't play dumb.

1) Wolverine landed in Georgia (the country, not the state) and was still conscious.

2) Logan in his first appearance, with no adamantium skeleton or healing factor, who already withstood a "bone-shattering" impact and just recovered from a magical spell? Try better.

3) Healed from a bare skeleton, fought Namor's Royal Guard and it took several strikes from Namor, not one.


You're assuming I'm posting from comics I have in my collection.
That's a bad assumption. You should also consider in all those years of posting what titles I've been posting FROM. You can bet they're not Wolverine titles as a rule.

Now, responding to your numbered items:

1. I don't think you know what "aplomb" means.
2. You'll need to prove the "no adamantium" skeleton part. He shouldn't have his claws if what you saying is true. You DO potentially bring up the point of how retcons and power development over the years should be addressed, however. I'VE never known a time when Wolverine didn't have a healing factor, but there's a chance truly devout Wolverine fans might.
3. The "Healed from a bare skeleton" part was from his fight with the villain, Nitro.

Old Post Apr 11th, 2017 12:28 AM
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darthgoober
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Read the comics you're posting scans from. You've been posting here for 10 years, don't play dumb.

1) Wolverine landed in Georgia (the country, not the state) and was still conscious.

2) Logan in his first appearance, with no adamantium skeleton or healing factor, who already withstood a "bone-shattering" impact and just recovered from a magical spell? Try better.

3) Healed from a bare skeleton, fought Namor's Royal Guard and it took several strikes from Namor, not one.

Wait, I thought in Wolverine's first appearance/fight he specifically commented on being "bad to the adamantium laced bone"? Or am I remembering another fight?


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Last edited by darthgoober on Apr 11th, 2017 at 12:49 AM

Old Post Apr 11th, 2017 12:35 AM
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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lucky for you I posted my scan of the diminutive Nightcrawler falling on top of Spiderman, knocking him out ...!


quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Something doesn't seem kosher, there.
Why does Spidey talk as if they've met before and that Nightcrawler's strength is far greater than he remembers?
Why does Nightcrawler talk like Dracula, seemingly considering whether Spidey should get a bite to the neck or not?
Where is that scan from?



quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Why do any of those details matter?

Reason for my question is, its not as if Spiderman was being choked out, or he was knocked out by Kurt's punch.

He was still conscious and inquisitive AFTER Kurt used his strength.

The only question you should be asking is, was Kurt denser than normal? Because that was all that was used to KO poor Spidey.

Despite falling into a pile of rubbish, from a not considerable height.





quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Are you normally THIS deceptive, Dark?

I searched and managed to find where that's from. That's not Kurt Wagner/Nightcrawler at all.
That's a skrull. A skrull, as I type this, who apparently was, in true form, indistinguishable from another who successfully duplicated Colossus and HIS considerable weight and physical prowess.

Your submission, in fact, is from Fantastic Four #250, the issue the Shiar's Gladiator is introduced to the FF.

http://peerlesspower.blogspot.com/2...defeat.html?m=1


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Old Post Apr 11th, 2017 07:23 AM
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bluewaterrider
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2nd part of the so-called "Nightcrawler" versus Spider-man interaction.

I was originally against the showing because I suspected it involved a doppelgänger of Nightcrawler's who, being a comic book vampire or something of the like, would have power over flight in ADDITION to the inexplicable level of strength he'd been granted. As it is, it turned out, "Nightcrawler" was a SKRULL with extreme strength and flight ability.

A villain with great strength and speedy flight ability in the comic world, of course, can make a victim crash a lot harder than they would in free fall conditions. The dialogue, action, and narration of THIS story, implies the skrulls may have had even more than that going for them ...
(Note: The skrull who masquerades as Angel here was the same skrull who attacked Spider-Man as Nightcrawler.


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Source:Fantastic Four #250

Old Post Apr 11th, 2017 07:55 AM
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Ize19
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Earlier you responded to one of my challenges in this thread, albeit to Stilt, not yourself. I'll repay the courtesy, partly OUT of courtesy, also because it will help illustrate a point. Exhibit A will be one Elizabeth Braddock, a.k.a. Psylocke. To which you can presumably respond "Psylocke is explicitly superhuman!"
But the answer is, of course, that, during the time of this comic, Psylocke's abilities did not enhance her physical strength beyond relatively normal fit human levels. And she's not using them on her mech-opponent anyway, as the dialogue makes fairly clear:

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Ok, so first you post Psylocke knocking off a robots head. Only she's not really knocking it off, she's merely nearly doing so. As you can see in the scan, the head may have been separated from the torso, but the robots "spine" is intact, whereas Wolverine's kick hit so hard that the spine broke off at the bottom of the neck, and the head was sent flying. Not a feat of the same difficulty. And to make matters worse for you, Psylocke even points out that the robots are unusually easy to destroy, unlike a cyborg ninja, who would be harder to damage than a normal human.

quote: (post)

The second showing here is from some random, human-as-far-as-I-know girl who calls herself The Dragonfly. She's here shattering what looks like solid stone. Psylocke not using her mental abilities to strike the head off a mecha is the more proper answer to your challenge; this one I'm showing mainly because of the point made in the dialogue. Note Madame Qwa reprimanding Dragonfly for being sloppy in her strikes and having labored breathing.
The point Madame Qwa is obviously trying to make is that, done right, martial arts make striking and destroying EASIER from a physical strength standpoint, not harder. The scan that follows is just to demonstrate that Dragonfly is human. A zap from Electro puts her right to sleep. The third scan is just so people can I.D. Where the showing is from.

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No, kicking rocks is not nearly as impressive Wolverine's feat either. And of course martial arts makes it easier to do more damage, so does picking up momentum from flying. Either way, the damage is dealt, so for the purposes of this thread, what matters is how much damage is inflicted, not how that damage is achieved. And even then, barring a character with regular superhuman feats like Karate Kid, your're not going to be able to show me another martial artist capable of replicating Wolverine's kicking feat, so it's all academic. Sorry, you're 0 for 3 so far.

quote: (post)

I found out where that Wolverine feat I was trying to describe yesterday was.
You know that pool-punching incident?
It's apparently from a graphic novel titled "Bloody Choices".
The Wolverine-looking villain's name is "Shiv". His boss is someone named "Bullfinch". Stumbling across a poorer quality version of the 2nd of the following images after Googling everything I could think of yielded that.

(please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image)


Yeah, I know about Shiv. It's a great feat too, but since you'd already tossed it in the outlier category, I didn't feel the need to elaborate on it. You mostly remembered it right, anyway.

quote: (post)

1. I don't think you know what "aplomb" means.


I think we all know what your attempted downplaying of Gorgon means, though. Fact is, Wolverine took an incredible amount of damage, way more than Spider-Man would be dishing out, and managed to stay conscious.

quote: (post)

2. You'll need to prove the "no adamantium" skeleton part. He shouldn't have his claws if what you saying is true. You DO potentially bring up the point of how retcons and power development over the years should be addressed, however. I'VE never known a time when Wolverine didn't have a healing factor, but there's a chance truly devout Wolverine fans might.


When Wolverine was first created, there was no mention of his adamantium skeleton. In fact, it took four years for him to mention that his bones were unbreakable (Uncanny X-Men 116), and almost another year after that to specify that it was because they were adamantium (Uncanny X-Men 126). UXM 116 was also the first mention of his accelerated healing, while it officially became his power three years later in issue 142.

quote: (post)

3. The "Healed from a bare skeleton" part was from his fight with the villain, Nitro.


Which took place immediately before his fight with the Atlantean Royal Guards, which was interrupted by Namor. There was no chance for his healing factor to recharge, so you have to take all of that damage into consideration.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by darthgoober
Wait, I thought in Wolverine's first appearance/fight he specifically commented on being "bad to the adamantium laced bone"? Or am I remembering another fight?


Nope, never used that line back then. I'm not sure where it's from, but it sounds like Larry Hama's Wolverine to me.


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Old Post Apr 11th, 2017 08:27 AM
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StiltmanFTW
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by darthgoober
Wait, I thought in Wolverine's first appearance/fight he specifically commented on being "bad to the adamantium laced bone"? Or am I remembering another fight?


He only states his claws are "forged of diamond-hard adamantium" and that he has "power to back them up". It wasn't even clear if he could sheathe his claws.


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Old Post Apr 11th, 2017 09:09 AM
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bluewaterrider
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I'll let you guys go context-happy on Captain America's
knockout of Logan here ...

Wolverine: Enemy of the State. Part 6 of 6

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Source: Wolverine #25, Volume 3

Old Post Apr 11th, 2017 09:38 AM
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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarkSaint85


Finger flicks aren't used to end fights. Headbutts, though, are.


confused


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Old Post Apr 11th, 2017 09:45 AM
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bluewaterrider
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I'm genuinely curious what the response to this one will be.

This action, long preceding the Captain America put-down shown above in that story, has Wolverine, with the help of a half dozen or more Hand Ninjas, dropped to the ground after very human-strength level Matt Murdock, a.k.a. Daredevil, hits him on the head once with a hand-held weight.

Wolverine: Enemy of the State. Part 5 of 6.

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Source: Wolverine #24, Volume 3

Old Post Apr 11th, 2017 09:55 AM
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StiltmanFTW
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1. Beautiful, how you conveniently left the part when Logan took a blast from Rachel Phoenix.

2. Matt broke Logan's mind-control for a moment. DD ko'd Parker, btw smile Beat the shit out of him. Even if we ignore the context, it's far worse than getting dazed, losing your balance, getting impaled on a sword and STILL being perfectly conscious.

Do you even know how Wolverine's HF works, blue? Don't answer, no need.


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Old Post Apr 11th, 2017 10:24 AM
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StiltmanFTW
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A single strike from Logan has proven to be enough to KO Parker.

Adrenaline was flowing through SM's veins, so it's quite legit, unlike most cheapshot scenes:

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Old Post Apr 11th, 2017 10:59 AM
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bluewaterrider
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It amazes me that no one ever seems to have simply sat down and made an illustrated list of some of the things we've been discussing, let alone something with reference information so people can follow.

No wonder people seem to think Wolverine can't be knocked out.

But through just the research I've done the past few days here, I've found Logan dropped or undeniably made 10-count ready at some point with nearly every major hero I've looked at. Here's my list so far:



Wolverine versus Daredevil.

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Source: Wolverine #24, Volume 3. Enemy of the State, Part 5 of 6.


Wolverine versus Captain America.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...mp;pagenumber=9

Source: Wolverine #25, Volume 3. Enemy of the State, Part 6 of 6.



Wolverine versus Sabretooth.

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Source: Wolverine #10, Volume 1.



Wolverine versus Spider-Man.

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Source: Superior Spider-Man storyline (Otto Octavius a.k.a. Doctor Octopus)




Wolverine versus Thing.

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Source: Fantastic Four versus X-Men 4-part miniseries




Wolverine versus Namor.

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Source: New Warriors storyline ... Wolverine and Namor bring the villain Nitro to justice after the murder of Namorita



Wolverine versus Magneto.

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Source: Uncanny X-Men. Want to say issue 108, Volume 1.




Wolverine versus Hulk.

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Source: The Incredible Hulk #181, Volume 1.

Old Post Apr 11th, 2017 11:43 AM
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Dareangel
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ize19
That's a horrible interpretation of the scene. You can clearly see motion lines indicating an actual slash during the second and third punches, both of his sets of claws come free during the fourth punch, then his shifted position show that he threw a final (on panel) slash during the fifth punch. The six and seventh punches they focus on Wolverine's face more, so he was probably incapable of fighting back by the sixth punch, though going by his face actual knockout wasn't achieved until the seventh.

Lol, Wolverine being incapacitated by two Spider-Man headbutts is laughable. Don't forget, not only is Spider-Man taking damage from Wolverine's adamantium skull, but that skull is absorbing a lot of the damage. Taking into account the fact that Wolverine's outlasted a non-stop assault on his head from Spider-Man twice before, it's much more likely that Spider-Man cracks his head open than he manages to replicate WWH's feat here.


you basically see motion at first but then if you watch closely its the same slash and stub with both arms. his claws are stuck. at the third scan you see WWH punching him in the face causing his body to twist. watch the next scan wolverine is having his eyes closed he is out. you wana tell me he is fighting with his eyes closed? his position changed because hulk punched him while he is already done, therefor his body is twisting already with the punch.

as i explained, its not a matter of who can punch harder, its a matter of having enough power to make his brain tilt inside of his skull. as i explained earlier, we saw spiderman driving wilverine with his back into a concrete and knocking him out. in order to knock out by bashing his back against the ground one has to have a lot of strength to be able to damage someone like that. so yeah spidys head is not a aoncrete but he has the strength. moving on to durability. we saw wolverine pounding spdys face with his adamantium fists over and over and over again. nothing. didnt break anything as far as his facial structure. the skull is much more dence than facial bones. therefor, i think its also safe to say spidy can take multiple hits to his forehead from same adamantium. overall, those are the reasons why i believe spiderman will knock out wolverine with repeated headbutts.

Old Post Apr 11th, 2017 02:22 PM
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