That's assuming the balance being tipped in one direction or the other hinders the other side. That would certainly raise my placement of Bane and the other RoT Sith up to late Plagueis and Sidious.
__________________ "I like big sweaty testicles." - DMB, Gchat, 2017.
Your use of 'canonical statements' ignores context. Not all canon is equal. As I've pointed out before, G-canon (that is, content coming directly from series God George Lucas) supercedes all others per Legends/original canon rule. C-canon or lower is subject to scrutiny.
I'll use the simple analogy again:
You see a crime via a camera recording in HD. You also talk to an eyewitness who gives a quicker, less nuanced version of events from their POV.
Which is more reliable evidence for prosecution?
If you said the eyewitness, you're being a fool.
G-canon > C-canon which is supported by G-canon > Blurb which can be contested with G-canon evidence >>>>>>> A mod in KotOR that makes you a naked twi-lek.
Blind acceptance is awfully convenient for people who just like to hear their opinions reaffirmed by the evidence.
The C-canon statement had been set forth that Sidious had mastered all seven forms of lightsaber combat. There's a lot wrong with this:
1. To become a master or proficient in lightsaber combat takes a long time. One C-canon novel describes Jedi having tens of thousands of hours of practice to reach proficiency in just a few styles. Ten thousand hours of saber practice is over 400 days, or a solid year of practice. And this isn't masters we're talking about here; it's stock Jedi. The idea of mastering seven forms of lightsaber training is insane. I could point out that most Writers Can't Do Math trope and assert that no Jedi but Yoda could ever do this.
2. Sidious was a closet sociopath and politician for much of his life, and spent a few scant decades as a Sith before ROTS. The idea that he mastered all seven forms of lightsaber combat from his sole master seems extremely unlikely. His busy daytime lifestyle would prevent total commitment to his training, and with one or two other people to train with, his actual level of understanding and mastery is contestable.
3. He was easily disarmed by Yoda and Mace Windu. Windu used a front kick and Yoda made him just look bad at dueling. The only people he dominates lack a frontal lobe and let him blitz them in a doorway.
A rational examination of the evidence makes it seem shaky. That it's not supported by higher canon makes it largely undefendable. If you want to just take all statements as equally valid, that's foolish. If you only want to accept statements as valid when they support your favorite unreproachable characters, that's dishonest.
Either way, my point stands.
Jesus Christ.
The Holocron was divided into five levels of canon (in order of precedence): G-canon, T-canon, C-canon, S-canon, and N-canon.
GWL-canon or G-canon stood for George Lucas canon: Marked GWL after George Lucas (whose middle name is Walton). It included Episodes I–VI (the released films at that time), and any statements by George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the scripts, filmed deleted scenes, film novelizations, reference books, radio plays, and other primary sources were also G-canon when not in contradiction with the released films. GWL-canon overrode the lower levels of canon when there was a contradiction. In the words of Leland Chee: "George's view of the universe is his view. He's not beholded to what's gone before."
I can't make this any more apparent; if it contradicts G-canon, it's not canon. It's so damn axiomatic. If C-canon blurb says X, and the G-canon movie depicts not X, then it's not X.
Really? It's less energy to barely leap to the side instead of reach out with your superior Force powers and stop something coming at you slowly and against gravity?
No, that's not logical. Not even close.
I'm going to gloss over this since I'll start repeating myself ad infinitum.
You explicitly noted that Yoda was Sidious' inferior in the same reply. Granted, it is not easy to read because your syntax is rough, but you made a point to state that Yoda was somehow inferior.
My entire rant has been a direct response to the idea that Sidious is Yoda's superior in Force or saber combat. If you want to move the goalposts and still somehow disagree with me, it's time wasted. My point-by-point detailed how Yoda won the saber battle conclusively, and he met or surpassed all of Sidious' Force showings in the same setting. The ring out effectively stopped the fight, meaning on neutral ground Sidious would have no such advantage. He would likely lose. As it is, the ability to escape to higher ground probably kept him alive since he lost his lightsaber.
So you choose confirmation bias. Got it.
My position is well-fleshed-out and uses easily examined evidence. Your position is that mine is wrong because a blurb which barely touches on the events in discussion says something else.
There's a word for that: bias.
Good thing 'imo' isn't a measure of objectivity in a debate setting. If you intend to refute, you must debate using measurable evidence. Your opinion, gut feeling, fuzzy warm place, or magic eight ball doesn't do it.
People mistakenly assume that Vaapad is sort of a God Card that translates into victory in all situations. Where is the evidence?
Vaapad enabled Mace Windu to exchange blows with Palpatine and cope with the latter's Force Lightning - all good. However, this is one side of the coin. The other side is that Palpatine faked his defeat in order to manipulate Anakin Skywalker. So we have a murky picture in this case.
There is no guarantee that Windu can respond to Valkorion's Dark Blast or cope with his FLS and other powers. Valkorion may also choose to affect the mind of his opponent, reducing the effectiveness of his subject and/or easier to defeat.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Sep 29th, 2017 at 08:55 AM
That there are circumstances present in Mace winning doesn't mean that Mace's contention was circumstantial. Factually, per word of god, Mace can compete with Sidious in an all-out bout.
The superconducting loop applied to power in general, not specific abilities. Aside from the superconducting loop, Valk will have trouble getting the opportunity to use the force when faced with the offensive onslaught of a duelist bordering on the level of the best duelists in the entire mythos(up until that time at least).
An ironic sentiment coming from the man whose argument is best summarized as "I don't like what your sources say, therefore they're wrong."
The canon tier system (G, T, C, etc.) no longer applies since the canon/Legends split back in 2014. A thing is canon or it is Legends. Legends is not canon.
Many, many sources disagree with your interpretation of the film. Your interpretation of the film doesn't override those sources. I'm sure most of the writers involved with Star Wars are familiar with even the extremely obscure film known as... Episode III.
Your argument that Sidious just can't be a master of all forms of combat because he's challenged by another master of all forms of combat (with more experience) and a high-end master of multiple forms in Mace is hella weak, even for you. Yours is a textbook appeal to incredulity with absolutely no evidence to support it. We have a valid source explicitly stating he is and nothing to explicitly contradict it beyond your age-old dislike of a character.
In summary, the only confirmation bias here is - per usual - yours. In the face of explicit evidence, you bring nothing to the table beyond indignation and tears.
Aug 1st, 2017 08:05 AM
