This is ESB Yoda. Sidious can effortlessly stomp him. Yoda's a super old hermit that's barely alive.
This is ESB Luke. A toying Vader kicked his ass. Full-out Vader will damn near if not stomp him.
Maul can surely put up a fight against Ben, and Qui-Gon can honestly be stomped by Dooku in the Force. He might not be a factor. Sidious vs Yoda and Luke vs Vader, with the given iterations, is a stomp. The Sith simply have the advantage.
__________________ "Once more, the Sith will rule the galaxy! And... we shall have... peace."
Yoda became more powerful than Sidious could ever dream of, just because he didn't had a fight doesn't mean he was weak. Don't judge a Jedi by his age or body...
Ben already oneshot Maul pretty easily. This is a non fight.
ESB Luke hold his own for a while and this is all it needs.
Qui-Gon is on par with Mace in Saber and on par in the Force with Dooku and both together would keep Dooku, who indeed is superior to both individually but only at sabers, at bay. But nice of you to just take Mace out of your "equation" to make it work for the sith.
Seems you don't really understand much about the force it seems and those chars. But to each his own.
Yoda never became more powerful than Sidious could dream of as of ESB. He hadn't died. Yoda is clearly struggling to keep himself alive, Sidious is still a powerhouse. Sidious can stomp ESB Yoda.
Ben three-shotted Maul when amped to degree where he was nigh-unbeatable, when Maul had chunks of his legs falling, was exhausted and thirsty from wandering the desert for weeks, and was a mental wreck, whereas Kenobi was in the perfect mental state- which is important given the fight was labeled a psychological fight. The scene was also a tribute to Seven Samurai where the final duel lasted two blows. It's pretty clear you favor the Jedi over the Sith but at least acknowledge context.
ESB Luke cannot hold his own against a serious Vader. Vader can just Force Choke him and crush his windpipe, or blow him away with a Force Push.
Qui-Gon isn't on par with Mace saber-wise, LMAO. Explain then why Mace's canonical inferior in TPM Maul casually stalemated Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan together.
Qui-Gon superior to Dooku in the Force? Qui-Gon is the definition of featless in the Force, while Dooku has some of the most impressive feats in the mythos. Dooku can ragdoll him, even with Mace around. Then it becomes Mace vs Dooku, which could honestly go both ways- Mace is more skilled and stronger but Dooku is considerably more powerful.
I didn't take Mace out. It's just that Qui-Gon is such a non-factor Dooku can blow him away. You paired the combatants like this:
Yoda vs Sidious
Ben vs Maul
Luke vs Vader
Qui-Gon and Mace vs Dooku
If you pair them up like this, this is how the fights are going to go:
Yoda vs Sidious- Sidious stomps
Ben vs Maul- Ben, but no stomp
Luke vs Vader- Vader stomps
Team vs Dooku- Either way
Which means Sidious and Vader will be available right at the beginning. Vader can help Dooku against the team, which makes it a slaughterhouse in favor of the Sith, Sidious can one-shot Ben with the flick of his wrist, then all Sith gang up on Jinn and Windu. Or Vader can help Maul against Ben, and Sidious can help Dooku by blitzing Jinn and killing Mace in two blows.
With this set of matchups (or any set of matchups, really) the Sith win. That's really all there is to it.
__________________ "Once more, the Sith will rule the galaxy! And... we shall have... peace."
Yoda died at an age of around 900, he was around 878 when he fought Sidious. That's more or less 22 years, for a Human like Sidious who was already old, it's a problem but for someone who lived for hundreds of years not so much, compared to a human it would be like 2 years apart. He was not in a worse shape during RotJ, he just wanted to become one with the force, like Qui-Gon and Ben. So he can most likely amp himself to his RotS levels and on top of this his power in the force was growing...
You favour sith, "thesithmaster" so you have to accuse others of bias to cover your own. Maul was so far below Old Ben, that it was laughable. Deal with it. Some people grow in power, others don't. Maul stayed on his previous levels, Ben advanced. He is in another ballpart, force and Saber wise. On par with the best.
ESB Luke hold his own for a prolonged time. Watch the movie, you might dislike it but he impressed Vader.
Rock, scizor, paper. Mace has a good technique against Dark Side users but is inferior to the likes of Yoda in pure skill and Sabre Fight, where he cannot amp himself from them. Qui gon sparred with him to a draw in the books.
TPM Maul was hard pressed and retreating till Qui-Gon and Ben were seperated and Qui-Gon was in a room that was hindering his technique, nothing was casual "lol at the bias". After this Ben as a Padawan still defeated Maul, solo.
Not in the Dark Side but the light side for sure. He became one with the force, something only a selected few achieved. His knowledge and understanding, his connection to the force suprassed his old master in the end. Dooku turned to the dark side. Dooku is more skilled than Mace and more powerful in the Force but anyway it's a 2 v 1 and he can't win.
Sorry but I don't engage biased trolls in circular discussion. So I stay with my stance, stay with yours, don't really care about the BS you wrote.
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Given Maul was a match for Ashoka, and Ben still a little below Vader, by all logic the power gap between Ben and Maul has to be a lot smaller than they made out.
I (personally) just think it was the wrong fight for Maul given:
1) Filoni describes Kenobi as being very "zen" and Maul as being "over primed" for that fight.
2) Witwer describes how Ben suckered Maul by shifting to Qui-Gon's stance, which Maul responded by using the same move against Ben that he used to kill Qui-Gon, which Ben was of course ready for.
Last edited by Darth Thor on Aug 30th, 2017 at 02:29 PM
He might not be much older than he was during ROTS and AOTC and TPM but we clearly see Yoda struggle with lifting an X-Wing in ESB, whereas before ROTS we see Yoda holding back a mountain without much more difficulty. It's clear he decreased, and by a lot. We also see how he is old and decrepit and how he died just one year later.
Maul is below Ben by a big margin, yes, but not enough for him to stomp. There were circumstances involved, but you keep ignoring them. Acknowledge the circumstances. I know it's hard to admit that the Jedi aren't the best, but Ben can't stomp Maul. In a legitimate fight at least.
ESB Luke only 'held his own' because Vader allowed it. With one hand, Vader floored a two-handed Luke, and when Luke actually tried to attack Vader, he was disarmed in six blows. Vader was screwing around with Luke, and could have killed him any time he wanted to.
I have never seen this source before. And anyway, that is Legends. This thread is Canon only as per the OP.
That's Legends, not Canon. This thread only looks at Canon. Even in Legends, that was when Qui-Gon had gained new strength during the circumstancial pause for meditation and caught Maul off guard with it.
"He had found a fresh reserve of strength during his meditation, and now he was attacking with a ferocity that seemed to have the Sith Lord stymied."
"He was gathering himself for a final assault, bringing himself in tune with the Force."
Both from the TPM novel. Qui-Gon managed to press Maul for a few seconds after he had a circumstancial pause which allowed him to gain strength and surprise Maul. Before that, it was all a ruse to lure Qui-Gon, which is confirmed in Wrath of Darth Maul.
"Maul leered again at Qui-Gon. You think you're driving me back. You have no idea that I'm in control. You don't know where I'm taking you."
When Maul wasn't luring Qui-Gon, he was casually wrecking Qui-Gon and Kenobi. I've explained this so many times on Comic Vine, so if you want to see the explanation go over there. I'm tired of educating people about this fight, and how Maul was superior to his opposition. Anyway, this is Legends, so not relevant to this thread. Just felt like teaching you a lesson or two.
Yes, Ben defeated Maul solo when Maul was caught off guard. Maul tossed Kenobi away in the actual fight. In Legends, it was outright confirmed to be luck in the novel. Apart from that, he only managed to briefly drive Maul back with a rage boost that massively amplified his powers- which worked even more given it caught Maul off guard. After Maul gained his composure, Kenobi was tossed away (or physically owned, as depicted in the novel). Maul was far more formidable than both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan in The Phantom Menace, let alone against either Jedi individually.
That's all beautiful, but how does that translate into combative power? Becoming a Force Ghost means zero in combat. Dooku lifted multiple stones in the several ton range and collapsed a cave, Qui-Gon did nothing. In Canon, there's really nothing that stops Dooku from ragdolling Jinn. The same applies to Legends.
Mace is more skilled than Dooku, given he's eight bordering on nine whereas Dooku is just eight- and being eight doesn't make him equal to Windu, because Nick Gillard noted there can be huge differences within the tiers.
It's a 2 v 1, sure, but that doesn't make Jinn imune to a ragdoll. If you have top tier and fodder vs top tier, then that fodder is irrelevant.
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RotS sheev was amazed he could still run without using the force in the novel. Both are old and decrepit. Plus wouldn't it go against Yoda's belief to hold-on unnaturally?
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I have to disagree there. When it comes to skill my logic is:
On top: Yoda, Dooku and Luke (Legends)
I think that Yoda was the epitome of the Force and Saber fight. A notch above Sidious, as we see in their fight in RotS, where Sidious lost his Saber off screen, logic implies that Yoda most likely disarmed him. Even at the Force Battle Yoda tanked and pushed, to Sidious suprise, the lightning back at him. The backlash affected both.
Luke because of Legends.
Count Dooku. In pure Saber, his skill were shown to be on par with Yodas. Sidious is more powerful in the Dark Side and in an all out fight he would beat him, that's true but pure skill Dooku was perfection. An before any smartass says that Anakin beat him. Yes, but Anakin also lost even with help against Dooku before, multiple times. One gets lucky and if feeded by the Dark Side it's possible. The skywalkers are a special breed.
A notch below: Sidious, Vader and Ben
Sidious because he is the avatar of the Dark Side. I still see him as the power user not the pure duellist. Though he is near the top, no doubt.
Vader because this is what he did best and he has a lot of practice.
Ben beat him before and their last fight, which ended in Bens death, was not a win for Vader, on the contrary. We can't say for sure who would have won. Ben threw the fight but imho he was up to the challange.
A notch more below: Mace, Qui-Gon
As said, rock paper scizor describes it best. A less skilled opponent might win against a superior one with the right tools. It's like an Axe against an Spear, or a Spear against an Axe, or a Sword against an Spear. You get the point.
Mace is skilled no doubt, one of the best but his technique works best against DS user. Someone who is both like Dooku would outskill him.
Qui-Gon lost because of circumstances, even so I would say that some forms of the Dark Side are better suited against his style.
Still a notch below: Luke ESB
Luke advanced faster than he should, he gave Vader a challange in ESB (he lost but was impressive) and after 3 years he surprassed his father in Sabers, which is retarded but this is what it means to be a Skywalker.
And a little below that: Maul
Maul was very skilled, a trained Jedi Assasine. His technique and his training were just there to fight Jedi, he performed once very good and is extremely skilled but if faced with someone at Sidious, Vader or above levels he just can't compete.
One thing to add. Why I rate Qui-Gon so high. It's a simple Logic. Yoda was Dookus master, and both are the epitome of Saber duelling skills (pure skill that is). Dooku was Qui-Gons Master and he trained him well, to assume otherwise would be foolish. Qui-Gon trained Ben who is kind of OP. It's near impossible for Jinn to be as bad as the people want him to be.
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Sidious was rated as a tier nine in lightsaber combat. Dooku was labeled eight. It's a "huge jump from one level to another" so I'm not sure how Dooku can be one notch above Sidious.
Also, how is ESB Luke above Maul? Luke got his ass kicked by a toying Vader. Maul at least stalemated Qui-Gon+TPM Kenobi and was a tier 8 before he hit his peak. When he hit his peak, he beat TCW Kenobi pretty decisively, murked a version of Savage capable of beating the likes of Ventress, easily tossed General Grievous away (even in Canon, Grievous has stalemated TCW Kenobi) and lolstomped four late CW MagnaGuards.
The question is not whether Luke is or not better than Maul, it's whether Maul can or cannot stomp ESB Luke who is featless apart from getting murked by a toying Vader.
__________________ "Once more, the Sith will rule the galaxy! And... we shall have... peace."
There is a source saying otherwise (Fact Files) and the movie says otherwise- in the movie, a one-handed Vader floored a two-handed Luke, Vader disarmed Luke in six blows when Luke attacked more boldly. Once Luke landed a lucky scratch on Vader, Vader deemed the fight over and Luke had lost his hand four blows after- which means that a serious Vader ended the fight in a few blows. ESB Luke is only a challenge, at best, for a toying Vader- serious Vader can end the fight in a few blows, or seize Luke with the Force and throw him around.
__________________ "Once more, the Sith will rule the galaxy! And... we shall have... peace."
Aug 30th, 2017 12:57 PM
