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How much of a factor does physical ability play in a duel?
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Kurk
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How much of a factor does physical ability play in a duel?

I saw this pop up in the Bane & Zannah vs Kenobi and Anakin thread.

This seems to differ between Disney Canon and EU


How much of a factor does a force user's non-augmented physical ability play in duel?


Personally, I believe that the more powerful the force user, the less significant physicals become. The reasoning behind this being that a more powerful force user can afford to continually "waste" more energy passively augmenting their endurance, strength, speed, etc than a mid-low tier force user. I'm talking simply about passive biological abilities. Not bursts of speed or strength.


Why is someone as powerful as Dooku, who's described to be in better physical shape than humans half his age, inclined to maintain their physicals? To contradict what I just said a paragraph ago, the RotS novel states how Dooku was affected by his physical handicap as he was forced to lavishly spend his force reserves fending off Kenobi and Anakin.

In canon, Dooku's fight against the night-sisters left him coughing and wheezing near the end of the battle which was then exploited by Ventress. Was this due to Dooku quickly fatiguing due to his age, or was he simply exhausted as a force-user (the latter seems less-likely as we see him electrocute the trio and throw them out his window)?


Propose ideas here for both canon and EU.


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godemperortrump
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Interesting.

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Zenwolf
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Re: How much of a factor does physical ability play in a duel?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Kurk


Personally, I believe that the more powerful the force user, the less significant physicals become


This pretty much answered the question frankly.

It becomes more of a factor if the two are closer in power/skill.

Probably not that cut and dry, but generally.


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NewGuy01
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It's more significant than most people give it credit for, at least.

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godemperortrump
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It's irrelevant for force titans like Vitiate and Yoda, but for characters Kenobi-level in power it does make a difference

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TheNuisanceBird
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Re: How much of a factor does physical ability play in a duel?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Kurk
In canon, Dooku's fight against the night-sisters left him coughing and wheezing near the end of the battle which was then exploited by Ventress. Was this due to Dooku quickly fatiguing due to his age, or was he simply exhausted as a force-user (the latter seems less-likely as we see him electrocute the trio and throw them out his window)?



Maybe because he was injected by a Nightsister poison and had to suddenly get out of bed from sleeping? Whatever it was, it hindered him and he probably would've done better had it been in the middle of the day without getting injected.


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Old Post Nov 1st, 2017 07:18 PM
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DarthAnt66
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Re: How much of a factor does physical ability play in a duel?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Kurk
The RotS novel states how Dooku was affected by his physical handicap as he was forced to lavishly spend his force reserves fending off Kenobi and Anakin.


It does not, no.

quote:
Was this due to Dooku quickly fatiguing due to his age, or was he simply exhausted as a force-user (the latter seems less-likely as we see him electrocute the trio and throw them out his window)?


Neither is true.


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Old Post Nov 1st, 2017 07:23 PM
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Kurk
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It does not, no.



Neither is true. [/B]

He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.

Pretty clear-cut hear.

the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker— Skywalker was getting stronger. Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade. He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again. He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form

When taking the context of Dooku's physical situation into account, this too supports my claim. Each block aged him a decade; not simply exhaust him. His consciousness was drawn back to his physical form; meaning he was made aware of his physical handicap.


As for TCW fight; neither is true based on what exactly?


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Old Post Nov 1st, 2017 08:59 PM
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DarthAnt66
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I recall debating this with you when you first joined.

To restate, Dooku has no physical handicap beyond the normal.

Only against Anakin is his physicals ever an issue.


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Old Post Nov 1st, 2017 09:09 PM
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FreshestSlice
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I like how the text doesn't even say something remotely close to what you're claiming it does, Kurk.

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Kurk
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I like how the text doesn't even say something remotely close to what you're claiming it does, Kurk.
That's why I made it bold so you could see the important parts smile .


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Old Post Nov 1st, 2017 11:02 PM
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DarthAnt66
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Dooku, like all Force users, uses Force augmentation to heighten his speed, strength, etc. to unnatural heights. Anakin is so strong that it is forcing Dooku to exert unnatural amounts of Force energy to reach a level of augmentation capable of surviving against his onslaught. Using such excess power to simply fend off every attack from Anakin is exhausting Dooku, causing him to teeter on the brink of unconsciousness. The expression "aged a decade" demonstrates how taxing this is on Dooku's body. No where, and I mean no where, is it even implied Dooku's age makes him tire unnaturally fast, nor that Dooku being brutalized is a result of a physical handicap and not Anakin's monstrous strength.

In regards to The Clone Wars fight, it is blatantly, and I mean so blatantly it does not require any intelligent thought to deduce, evident that the poison injected by Ventress is the reason for Dooku's dizziness and wheezing - not that he can't fight longer than two minutes without breaking down.


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Old Post Nov 1st, 2017 11:22 PM
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FreshestSlice
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^someone who took an English class, tbh.

Old Post Nov 1st, 2017 11:24 PM
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Kurk
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Dooku, like all Force users, uses Force augmentation to heighten his speed, strength, etc. to unnatural heights. Anakin is so strong that it is forcing Dooku to exert unnatural amounts of Force energy to reach a level of augmentation capable of surviving against his onslaught. Using such excess power to simply fend off every attack from Anakin is exhausting Dooku, causing him to teeter on the brink of unconsciousness. The expression "aged a decade" demonstrates how taxing this is on Dooku's body. No where, and I mean no where, is it even implied Dooku's age makes him tire unnaturally fast, nor that Dooku being brutalized is a result of a physical handicap and not Anakin's monstrous strength.

In regards to The Clone Wars fight, it is blatantly, and I mean so blatantly it does not require any intelligent thought to deduce, evident that the poison injected by Ventress is the reason for Dooku's dizziness and wheezing - not that he can't fight longer than two minutes without breaking down.


"He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away."

Tell me how that does not imply Dooku needs to compensate for his "years" moreso than a user like Kenobi or Anakin.


Also


"However, only one death was in his plan, and this dumb-show was becoming tiresome. Not to mention tiring. The dark power that served him went only so far, and he was, after all, not a young man."


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Old Post Nov 1st, 2017 11:41 PM
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DarthAnt66
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Dooku is a Force-user who uses Force augmentation to booster his abilities to unnatural heights - so much so he's one of the most capable Force-users ever.

Anakin is striking with such strength that Dooku has to dive deep into his Force reserves to summon the energy necessary to augment himself to defend against Anakin.

Dooku expending such excess energy after every strike, in which it's said each strike costs Dooku more Force energy than hurling Obi-Wan, is dubbed "Force exhaustion."

In other words, Dooku is slowly becoming void of the Force, since all the Force within him is being used to summon the physical strength needed to block Anakin.

As a result, Dooku is slowly becoming back to a normal human - aged and unable to even call upon the Force energy needed to process Anakin's speed.

Dooku is presented a break, in which he summons the Force back into himself. When he does this, he's no longer normal again - he's a powerful Force-user.

---

tl;dr: Without the Force, Dooku is just an old man. Dooku is expending so much Force energy vs Anakin that he's slowly becoming just an old man.


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Old Post Nov 1st, 2017 11:50 PM
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Kurk
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Dooku is a Force-user who uses Force augmentation to booster his abilities to unnatural heights - so much so he's one of the most capable Force-users ever.

Anakin is striking with such strength that Dooku has to dive deep into his Force reserves to summon the energy necessary to augment himself to defend against Anakin.

Dooku expending such excess energy after every strike, in which it's said each strike costs Dooku more Force energy than hurling Obi-Wan, is dubbed "Force exhaustion."

In other words, Dooku is slowly becoming void of the Force, since all the Force within him is being used to summon the physical strength needed to block Anakin.

As a result, Dooku is slowly becoming back to a normal human - aged and unable to even call upon the Force energy needed to process Anakin's speed.

Dooku is presented a break, in which he summons the Force back into himself. When he does this, he's no longer normal again - he's a powerful Force-user.

---

tl;dr: Without the Force, Dooku is just an old man. Dooku is expending so much Force energy vs Anakin that he's slowly becoming just an old man.
What about him "after all not being a young man" all about?

So your stance is that whether or not Dooku was 80 or 20 does not matter as he would've struggled against Anakin's augmented strength either way just as badly, right?


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Old Post Nov 1st, 2017 11:58 PM
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DarthAnt66
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Kurk
What about him "after all not being a young man" all about?


The obvious. Dooku's old. He can't just run around and do jumping jacks and cartwheels.

He needs Force augmentation - from jumping to jumping at a speed that it's effective against other hyper-fast Force-users.

This issue isn't just Dooku's, though, hence why it's irrelevant.

Every Force-user needs the Force. Even someone like Maul, who's perhaps the most physically capable Star Wars character without the Force, is still going to need vast augmentation to bring him to anywhere near the level any of these competent Jedi or Sith are fighting at in Legends; not to mention the fact that half of all Force-users, like Dooku, probably need the Force to do even do a cartwheel.

However, none of this would be an issue unless you're fighting the Chosen One, in which Anakin is forcing Dooku to a state where he's literally just an old man trying to fend off a hyper-hyper fast and strong Force-user. That's by no means indication of a physical handicap, but rather Anakin is so strong Dooku is exerting more energy than he has available to him.

Dooku has, after all, proven he's well capable of handling Grievous, Mace, or Yoda (the physical aspects of it, that is). As I said, the quote is not exclusive to Dooku - any Force-user older than, say, forty or fifty is going to have the same issue (Revan, Malgus, Bane, Yoda, Sidious, Obi-Wan, Vader, and Luke included), and than those younger as well - and the difference is marginal and irrelevant.

quote:
So your stance is that whether or not Dooku was 80 or 20 does not matter as he would've struggled against Anakin's augmented strength either way just as badly, right?


I don't like the word "stance" since it suggests there's a legitimate alternative stance, but yes, that's what the book is saying.


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Old Post Nov 2nd, 2017 12:08 AM
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DarthAnt66
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Or, if you want to look at it this way:

FOR (Force) points can be converted into STR (strength) points.

Dooku has 50 FOR points and can replenish 5 FOR points every second.

Anakin attacks Dooku with 10 STR points every second.

Generally, Dooku has enough FOR points to devote 6 to STR per second.

However, he now needs 10, which isn't achievable, so he'll use 8 STR points and pray.

Worse, after every strike, Anakin grows stronger, so the second strike would demand 11 STR points, etc.

Plus, with all his FOR points going to STR, Dooku's going to get messed up in other areas, like sense or speed.

Eventually, Dooku is going to be "Force exhausted" - out of FOR points to spend on not just STR, but anything.

In the end, Dooku will be a tired, hurt old man trying to fend off a crazy powerful Force-users attacks - he can't do it.


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Old Post Nov 2nd, 2017 12:28 AM
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Kurk
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I wonder why force users even bother keeping in shape then.


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Old Post Nov 2nd, 2017 12:52 AM
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DarthAnt66
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It seems more as a result of extensive training.

If you undergo hard training exercises constantly, you're going to naturally become fit.


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