My line of thought is that ultimately everything (matter, energy, information, consciousness) can be reduced to raw time.
Consider this … in what way does a consciousness exist which does not perceive time? (i.e. in what manner can you maintain thoughts (logical or otherwise) which do not occur in sequence?)
Darling! I had no idea you were so theological/philosophical.
An excellent analogy.
Once again I invoke the name of Kurt Godel.
Godel explained precisely how and why Time Travel could/would be possible in Einstein’s universe (matrix).
Yeah, that is kind of what I was thinking as well.
The idea that the Universe (the Omniverse [set of ALL universes]) is kind of like an organism unto itself which grows and evolves over Time. Once again according to Godel (and this goes hand in hand with Time Travel) for any formal system (like mathematics, any computer language, or the laws of physics themselves) there are certain propositions generated by the system which cannot be proven true or false without an appeal to an agency outside of the system (outside of that system’s time).
In other words, Godel supports the notion that the present universe (or Matrix) was derived from a simpler universe/system which exist in the simultaneous past. Likewise, the present universe will be the source of a newer more complex system/universe in the simultaneously occurring future.
Of course according to Einstein the notion of Simultaneous is Relative to an individual observer within his own frame of reference (Matrix). Ergo, my past may be your future or vice versa. Thus Neo’s future may be analogous to the Architects past.
I am a little lost, trying to follow both of your posts serpent and maul's women, What would be the purpose of the time looping in the Matrix?
__________________ "If you do a bad thing for a good reason, does that bad thing become a good thing? Or is it still a bad thing? And if so, how can it possibly be good to do it?
I believe they need to take his memories and experiences in the code.Just like evolution if they dont adapt it will lead to extintion.So they make the matrix better so most of the people dont find out its not real.Morpheous said most of the people arent ready to wake up from it so most of them will die of shock and the rest you do survive will probably drown in the pool that neo went in on the first matrix.
Wow, I leave for a couple of days and the posts go to crap. Why in the world are you people making this so complicated. There is a simple answer that dosen't require time looping like you guys are talking about.
Neo is the end of this version of the matrix. He is the begining of the next. That simple. The only way a time loop may come into play is when they reset the matrix's time. The first movie says at humankinds height of success. I am guessing 20th/21st century.
i think that zion is in another form of the matrix, which is why neo sences something differnt.
in the Matirx, it involves a choice, and that you can acept and that you dont. the ones that dont, het free, and enter the 'real world' yet this real world is just another matrix for those who dont acept the first matrix. this is why the machines are destroying it, in actual fact they are just wiping this matrix, for the next generation of things to come. the reason why neo stops the sentinal is because , he can feel something, he bilives something, and like in the other matrix, you must belive it to do it.
its like th eteahings of God, where it says, happy are thoses who belive yet do not see. and those that dont belive wil be dammed for eternity. so the other matrix is that.
__________________
[SPOILER - highlight to read]: if you are reading this you are spoiling your life
Before I get into this… Why were the philosophical talk moved to a separate thread?
What does the Architect mean by “Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed, and the anomaly revealed as both beginning, and end.”?
The One is both the beginning and the end of Zion, that much is clear. It does not have to involve time-travel as such, but that the Matrix is reset, from 1999 back to 1900 for the sixth time (which then did not happen).
It’ s not so clear what is meant by fundamental flaw though. The Architect may simply refer to the paradox of the Matrix itself, that for it to work, the humans must choose to be enslaved, which then in turn creates the anomaly. Which freely chooses to return to the Architect and must itself choose the Source.
There is no such thing as “raw time”. Time, essentially, is what is needed to make a change. Time and energy are related, just as space and speed are.
I’d beg to disagree with the good Godel. This Universe is only heading towards more complexity in as much as the entropy is rising. So only if you equal chaos with complexity is Godel right.
It’s an interesting NOTION though, to set the Matrix equal to our known Universe, and then proceed to ask what is outside (which doesn’t make any sense).
But then, if the Matrix is reset, what about the programs that’s been running around for a long time, like the Merovingian, who knows the previous Ones?
Why does the system need the code Neo carries? Maybe the system and the A.I.s are doing what A.I’s are supposed to. Namely learn. As far as I see it we have programs like the Oracle, who’s investigating the human psyche, Persephone who samples human emotions (love), the Merovingian who samples languages etc. They may be trying to find a way to avoid the anomaly.
__________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-Voltaire
"That includes ruining Halloween because someone swallowed a Bible."
"I just thought you were a guy."
"... Most guys do."
Those are some good questions and i think you hit the nail on the head with the first one. The fundamental flaw in the matrix is that it requires humans to accept it to work. This creates the anomaly and it is that anomaly that expresses it self in the form of a man. This man then has to choose to continue the matrix or end it. Either way he will be the END of that version and the BEGINNING of the next.
Now about the programs. This is a bit tougher. You have to think of the matrix as your home PC. Lets say you reset your computer to factory default settings. Everything goes back to the way it was i.e. time goes back to 1900 and memories are erased. Even though you restore settings your saved documents and programs would still be on the computer. Thus programs can stick around.
If some of you are a bit more computer savy help out my theory. I think this is the most logical though.
Hm. True. That might explain why some programs have survived. And also, why programs like the Merovingian and Persephone have become slightly jaded. Hell is repetition, and we don’t really know how equal the last Matrix-run was to the previous one. Although I think they can differ slightly. That might explain why a program like the Oracle knows the future. Or certain aspects of the future. She’s been through the matrix-runs six times now. I still don’t think it runs exactly like the previous times, the One has most likely looked differently and we know he acted differently in the end.
I reread the Architects speech, and there he tells us exactly what the fundamental flaw is. It is free choice. (It’s somewhere around here, the entire speech). The Architect says something along the lines of “so while it worked it was fundamentally flawed.” If you think about it, it does make sense. A robot/machine/program does NOT have free will. They’re programmed to do… something. No program can avoid it’s program. An A.I. system may learn, but can it avoid learning so to speak?
It is the concept of free will/choice which the machines cannot understand, save perhaps the Oracle (the mother of the Matrix as far as I can deduce). So the machines basically had to write a program incorporating equations and lines they did not fully understand. A paradox in terms, that computers, so much better calculators than us, better at running equations and “understanding” them, must rite lines in their VR program, that they don’t understand.
And what is one of the main-themes around here? CHOICE. What does Neo do? He chooses to become the One, to save Morpheus (and Trinity) in M1. Another theme is LOVE. As simplistic as it may sound, it isn’t when you ask if machines can love.
__________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-Voltaire
"That includes ruining Halloween because someone swallowed a Bible."
"I just thought you were a guy."
"... Most guys do."
I agree on most accounts. Each version does run diffrent. I think the one proably even looked diffrent. I seem to rember a line from m1 when the oracle told neo he was cuter than she thought. That would imply she had never seen him before, but she has seen the other ONE's.
Now i dont think it is possible for a program to perform a task it dosen't understand. For this reason the A.I. had to give some programing power to a man so that he could make the matrix work for humans. There we have the beginings of the ONE. He could rewrite the matrix as he saw fit. The part about being born inside the matrix may meen he became concious of the matrix from the inside. His thought was born there wheres the rest of the rebels had to become unplugged. This does seem to fit but as always i request help with my theory or any feedback .
Mac> So far so good then
As far as “being born within the Matrix” goes: Neo, Morpheus, Trinity and everyone in the films who can plug into the Matrix again, were BORN inside the Matrix. They didn’t accept the program, the rebels found them, and they were freed.
The One collects the anomaly and is then supposed to deliver “a code” back to the Source. (I still think the machines are trying to learn how to avoid the anomaly altogether.) In a way you CAN say, that the machines themselves gave power to The One, and simply had to make a program, to ensure the One would return to the Source with the anomaly.
When the current Matrix was first run for the first times, the machines may not have known exactly what would happen with the systemic flaw. However, it seems that there were free humans at the time (how else would the Architect be able to black-mail), who may even have hacked into the VR-world in an attempt to free their fellow man and wage war on the machines from the inside. There may even have been more cities than just the one, that was allowed to survive.
__________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-Voltaire
"That includes ruining Halloween because someone swallowed a Bible."
"I just thought you were a guy."
"... Most guys do."
Well no. Some humans must’ve survived, otherwise: Who freed the first One? Or the first humans? Of course, one could go on to postulate the machines did that, to have a human to collect the anomaly and gather the 1 % who did not accept the program…
Then again… And so on and so forth
__________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-Voltaire
"That includes ruining Halloween because someone swallowed a Bible."
"I just thought you were a guy."
"... Most guys do."
the people that are chosem arnt they the zion leaders??? and they then free people who will not acept the program. in atual fact the people in zion are causeing less trouble to the machines by freeing people. th eonly reason why zion gets destroyed again and agaidn, is because once the 'one' is araound the machines cannot keep control.
the reason why the architect dosent want neo to go back into the matrix i because that means that he will learn that th efree people arnt free, bu tin another version, the reason why they acept this is because the deinied th efirst one but they belive this to be reality. neo sees this andthats what i think tht revolutions will be about.
__________________
[SPOILER - highlight to read]: if you are reading this you are spoiling your life
I agree completely with mac11586, the line "as a beginning as an end" means that no matter what Neo chooses, the anomaly will end. Like if the anomaly start in that moment (consiensusly) and ends when the One chooses one of the doors (makes a free choice).
By the way, something that I have never realized until yesterday (very donkey) is the fact that "Neo" has the same letters as "One".
Hi I'm new to this so everyone be gentle. What is the purpose of 'The One' ?. Nothing !. At least nothing in relation to the perpetuation of the Matrix. 'Evil Dead' in one of his posts stated that Neo could not have been eliminated in the 1st movie because this would have resulted in a 'system crash . . .'. However this is not so. As we would all recall Agent Smith did all in his power to destroy 'The One'. The fact that he failed to do so is of no consequence. It was his intent. And all this while still part of the 'System', one which he (Smith) would have been trying to preserve. Thus many of your theories would have been flawed. 'The One' serves no purpose in the context of the Matrix. He is an anomaly. One which thus far cannot be prevented, by alternatively subject to a degree of control. Thus, may I propose that the architect is just another form of control.
KMC Community Forums
Jun 6th, 2003 07:48 PM
revolutions is gonna give us all a shock.
