__________________ RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."
My case for him in the opener will revolve mainly around his confrontation with the strike team in the False Emperor flashpoint, but more feats will naturally be presented as the debate progresses.
With that said, let’s take a look at how he performs during the fight:
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(Credit to Nova’s RT for the scans)
Before the battle, he unleashes a blast of lightning which sends the strike team to their knees. Now, we can interpret this feat two ways: either he completely overpowers the defences of the strike team with a single attack, or he unleashes it so quickly that they couldn’t have reacted if their lives depended on it, as they were looking straight at him. It’s a damn good showing either way, and it really helps you get a picture of just how far Malgus is above his opponents.
He performs something nearly identical to this a few seconds later, when he finally leaps down from his throne to initiate the fight:
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The fact that he manages to do this a second time around - where the team would’ve been prepared for any further attacks - strongly suggests that he simply blew through their defenses with slight effort.
He also telekinetically dominates the team multiple times during the fight itself, utterly overwhelming whatever defences they had and choking all but one member, whom he then duels one-on-one:
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This gets to the point where the only avenue the team could’ve taken to win is to cheapshot him with a Rakatan grenade, or otherwise shove him Palpatine-style down the reactor shaft (he stops taking damage at a certain point, indicating they couldn’t kill him any other way). I know that this was later patched so that you could simply kill him like any other dungeon boss, but that seems to be for gameplay purposes rather than any real change in the continuity.
With that, I think it’s quite clear that Malgus is superior to the strike team. So why bring it up?
Well, Foundry Revan faced a much weaker version of this strike team earlier in the game. The fact that the team managed to mortally wound him in fair combat suggests that they were more powerful than he was at the time. But there’s an interesting part to the Revan fight which is definitely worth bringing up. Once he hits a certain stage, this quote will appear in bright red letters over the screen:
I understand that you might have some doubts over the validity of the quote, but in my view, this isn’t any different than a quote from the codex: both are third-person objective statements made in-game; the difference being, of course, the format in which they are presented.
The message here is clear: Revan is, at this point, more powerful than any Jedi to come before him, including Meetra Surik - the Jedi who defeated the version of Traya being used in this debate on an insanely powerful dark side nexus. And the strike team was still superior to that.
So it should come as no surprise that Malgus, someone who completely cucked a far stronger version of this strike team on multiple occasions, would be substantially more powerful than Surik - and therefore comfortably out of Traya’s league.
To summarize:
Malgus is substantially superior to the strike team.
A weaker version of this same strike team defeats a version of Revan who became “far more powerful than any Jedi ever dreamed of.” This includes Surik, who defeated Traya on a DS nexus.
__________________ RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."
I'd strongly tend towards the interpretation that he simply took them by surprise. Because if this was not the case, then he would have almost certainly won against the strike team, and at the very least killed the non-force sensitives. Instead, he inflicted zero fatalities and lost despite the fact that this team would have been immensely exhausted after fighting through seemingly 'endless' hordes of foes, as per the Flashpoint description, which would have given Malgus significant time to prep for the engagement. A similar thing applies for the subsequent blast which Malgus levied against the team. I highly doubt this represents true domination and rather Malgus relying on the momentum from his previous assault against a team exhausted and in severe agony after being electrocuted.
What's more, despite praising Malgus' abilities and determination, the HoT notes that Malgus was in a state of 'desperation', which suggests that he was ultimately outmatched quite badly. This remains the case whether the HoT fights Malgus individually or takes more team members.
These are pure game mechanics and are not nearly consistent and reliable enough to draw any sort of conclusions from. This can be easily demonstrated by bringing a three-person strike team to fight Malgus. Upon doing so, the False Emperor is suddenly unable to choke three and fight one and rather can only choke two and fight one. It is also curious that Malgus could so casually restrain all but one of the strike team in this manner, and yet not only lose but inflict no fatalities whatsoever. I'd also point out that in-game domination attacks are quite common in TOR strike team scenarios, but never result in a victory. Soa, for instance, is capable of consuming the protags in mind-traps that he can conjure casually, yet inflicts zero casualties and loses outright. There are also lower level bosses who are perfectly capable of landing TK hits during fights but still lose utterly all the same. I think this is all that needs to be said. Such blatantly inconsistent game mechanics aren't applicable.
So you say the only way that Malgus could have lost the engagement is through a cheapshot because you couldn't previously damage him after a certain point, but then follow up to say that it was patched out? Pretty sure that's a retcon.
No it isn't clear. At all. Malgus landed two surprise attacks against the team at the beginning of the fight, but then went onto to lose to the team in a battle where he was described as 'desperate' despite his opponents being heavily exhausted after fighting seemingly 'endless' enemies. He didn't inflict even one fatality, despite the presence of non-force sensitives who would be defenceless against his attacks.
I don't agree with this interpretation. Revan as of the Foundry was clearly mentally broken and not fighting at anywhere near his full capacity. What's more, he had only recently emerged from his stasis and 300 years of torture from the hands of Vitiate and the Dread Masters. His raw innate power was indeed considerable, but his ability to project and use that power was obviously extraordinarily diminished. Indeed, an apt comparison here would be Mustafar Anakin. Although nothing changed about Anakin in regards to his prodigious raw power, and it would still be accurate to label him as more powerful than any Jedi, his mental state prevented him from performing anywhere near his best. Therefore, nobody honest would seriously posit that we could scale RotS Kenobi off RotS Anakin or anything like that. Finally, Malgus says himself that no other Sith but those who were on the strike team could have defeated Foundry Revan. That includes himself, and would confirm there is something seriously off about the scaling you have constructed here.
So to sum up, the reasoning for Malgus here are flawed in two main ways:
It is assumed that Malgus must be superior to the strike team either collectively or individually on the basis of surprise attacks and game mechanics that are utterly inconsistent and cannot be reliably applied in these debates. The fact that the strike team would have been exhausted after fighting through hordes of 'endless' enemies is not discussed, nor is the fact that Malgus was actually described as in a state of 'desperation' during the battle, implying he was sorely outmatched.
It is assumed that the strike team that defeated Foundry Revan done so due to a legitimate power advantage rather than the exploitation of incredibly advantageous circumstances in their favour. Notably, that Revan was mentally broken and had just emerged from 300 years of torture, draining and mind****ing from Vitiate and the Dread Masters. The fact that Malgus lauds the Sith who defeated Revan as the only ones who could do so puts a massive spanner in the works of this scaling also.
Now what is my case for Traya winning? Well, one massive point in Traya's favour is the fact that she actually scales from early Nihilus. The evidence for this is stronger than you may think. Firstly, Traya is said to be by sources the 'most senior' of the Triumvirate. This is not referring to age or experience, as Sion is actually older than Traya and fought the Jedi for many more decades as a marauder in Kun's empire. Furthermore, it is said that the Sith in this era worked their way to the top by the lightsaber blade, which would not be referring to solely lightsaber skills as the Sith would obviously employ their force powers in these lethal contests, and also retcons a loading screen attributing Traya's rise to her manipulation.
So it can be inferred that Traya was the most formidable member of the Triumvirate at the time of her fall. And of course, this is hardly far-fetched as the reigning Dark Lord of the Sith is typically the most powerful anyhow. That is, unless their apprentice is more powerful. However, we happen to know that Nihilus is not more powerful than Traya at this time, because sources say that he had to team up with Sion. What's more, despite having her distracted and intending to kill her, Nihilus was unable to do so in their showdown in the Trayus Core. In fact, Sion and Nihilus drained her together, yet they were still unable to kill her or permanently cut her off from the force.
This is all important because Nihilus' resurrection of the Ravager along with his fleet occurred at around the same time. The resurrection of the Ravager and the fleet is said to be a measure of Nihilus' power. And since Traya by all indicators is actually Nihilus' superior at this point of time, this sort of power display should be within her capabilities. That should put her easily out of Malgus' range.
Another reason why I doubt Malgus' chances is that I'm genuinely not sure if he can put Traya down for good. With her incredible pain resistance, constant passive drain , and mastery of healing, it will be a terribly uphill battle for the False Emperor. Despite having any ability to augment herself stripped from her, Kreia was able withstand intense torture by the hands of Nihilus and Sion, who after the fact believed with certainty that she was dead. And only shortly after recovering her connection with the force on Peragus, Kreia recovers remarkably quickly after the agony of losing a limb. Later, Kreia even impales herself with a lightsaber, and not only manages to remain conscious, but is able to still use Force Crush on late-game Exile and walk away with no noted difficulty. Considering that it is said that she drained the Exile, I'd imagine she used this to heal herself. If so, this would mean that not even breaking through her defences and impaling her would be enough to take down Traya. And in fact, Traya has been shown to be able to heal mortally fatal wounds before with little effort and without drain even in the equation (Tobin, Hanharr).
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- credit to Nova RT
Speaking of drain, Traya would be using this passively throughout the battle. And as the duel wears on, Traya will be growing stronger whilst Malgus grows weaker. She can also ramp this up to the sort of active draining that she used to easily dispose of the three Jedi Masters who were said to have 'extremely potent' force powers. I doubt Malgus would be killed by such an assault, but he would certainly be noticeably weakened. Such draining would shore up Traya's already considerable force powers. The incredible pain resist and healing of Traya as laid out above will allow her to prolong the battle and only further sap Malgus' strength.
As well as the potential to severely drain Malgus' force strength and continually weaken him over time while amping herself, Traya also has the ability to gravely hamper Malgus' general combative strength too. As a master of Ionize who is able to use it on the massive machinery of a tank droid, it is far from inconceivable that Traya could use her powers against Malgus' armor. To put into perspective what this could do, Obi-Wan was able to use Ionize to make Anakin drop his lightsaber in their Duel on Mustafar. Now think of a similar trick being used not only against a hand, but practically the entire body of the individual who is 'held together by machines' (SWTOR Encyclopedia), including the breathing apparatus on which that person depends. This is what Traya could do in a blink of an eye, and Malgus would have no counter to it.
- credit to Nova's RT
I could go into more detail about some lines of scaling and useful abilities that Traya has, but I don't want to labour the point too seriously here so I will sum up the points I have made so far:
Traya, as the most senior member of the pre-fall Triumvirate, is superior to early Nihilus. Nihilus at this point was capable of pulling off his famed Ravager/fleet resurrection feat, which was stated to be a measure of his power. Traya scaling above this puts her comfortably out of Malgus' league.
Traya, even in situations where her ability to augment herself is negligible or nil, is able to withstand lethal torture and the severing of limbs. Later, Kreia remains conscious through impaling herself with a lightsaber, and after the fact is still able to Force Crush late-game Exile and walk off almost casually.
Traya is capable of not only withstanding, but also healing, utterly lethal wounds, including being impaled with a lightsaber and healing Tobin and Hanharr when they were next to dead.
Throughout the battle, Traya will be growing stronger whilst Malgus grows weaker, and Traya would be able to ramp her drain up at any time to severely reduce Malgus' powers.
As a master of Ionize, Traya will be able to instantly short-circuit the entirety of Malgus' mechanical armor, thus massively hampering Malgus' mobility and overall combat effectiveness, and disarming him in the same manner that Kenobi disarmed Anakin with this ability.
Jul 28th, 2018 01:49 AM
