I have no doubt that Broly > MUI Goku. MUI Goku and Jiren would be far far better than SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta from Broly movie. I think those two together could hurt and beat Broly. Of course i am also not sure, but Jiren and MUI are really massive power that i think they should win this.
We haven't even close see the full power of Beerus in anime. In manga we have seen the more serious approach of Beerus, but i don't think he went fully out, none of th GoDs actually (Zeno said how brutal their fight was though). I think if Beerus went all out that would be destructive power like no other for now. I think we have yet to see a 100% real divine power of Beerus.
And Goku is not on that level to sense the full power of Beerus... it's too much for him now.
Until clear showings, divine Beerus stomps mortal FPSSJ Broly... he would be entertained though.
Last edited by Inedian on Dec 19th, 2018 at 05:08 PM
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
You know how Piccolo kept charging his makankosappo?
Seemed like he could charge that sucker indefinitely. Think Goku can do same, with the Kamehameha?
If not, would Piccolo with MUI and his special overcharge beam be "broken?" As in, he activates MUI (Assume he learns how), then just keeps charging up the beam while dodging attacks, until it beats anybody.
That requires a no limits falicy, but judging by the Universe 6/7 games, the attack could keep charging as long as he wants.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
Ever hear of Kidd Radd? Pretty famous webcomic during the sprite comic heyday (Like 8-bit theater and this Megaman one I didn't read)
The main character was from an eight bit cart, that got rom dumped. His Radd Beam was capped at something like 128, due to limits of an 8 bit environment. He goes to a 16 bit game, and suddenly he's charging hundreds of thousands, and one shooting bosses. And when he's forced to charge up in the mainframe, hooked up to the internet, for four or five hours, he would have wiped out every internet capable device on earth.
Your talk about Android #17 made me remember him, because I bet it would be just like that, except replace mainframes with something a lot bigger.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
I agree with Supremex... nothing states Beerus is above MUI...NOTHING!!! Its the opposite tbh and Jiren was already said to be above the Gods, so the statement of Goku not being above GOD level is false since he have already beat someone that surpass that level. Also, Toppo was said to become a God of destruction and Vegeta still owned him. Yep, that statement is false and should be used as evidence of the show.
Nothing states MUI was beyond Beerus, though. As mentioned, the actual evidence at hand suggests the exact opposite.
And we've been through this before: all GoDs are NOT created equal, and Beerus is undoubtedly at the top of the GoD totem pole. That said, Jiren surpassing Belmond =/= Jiren surpassing Beerus. Vegeta beating Toppo(a GoD CANDIDATE) =/= Vegeta beating Beerus. Etc.
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Last edited by Galan007 on Dec 21st, 2018 at 08:38 PM
Again, there's the no kill rule in the ToP. The fact Toppo could not kill Vegeta, means he never used the full power of Destruction against him.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
I wanted to add more to this discussion: it’s stated that Jiren truly unleashes his full power in episode 129, upon fighting UI Omen:
We know that FP Jiren has strength exceeding Belmod and in the same tier as the other Gods of Destruction, Beerus included. Whis even believes that Jiren possibly even surpassed “the state of God of Destruction.”
As aforementioned, MUI Goku UTTERLY fodderizes episode 129 Jiren with the slightest of effort, and Jiren proceeds to overwhelm him in episode 130 by breaking his own limits and powering up even further.
I’m not really sure how I look at the light novel quote. We know that FP SSJ Broly (who utterly shits on the SSJ Broly who is referred to as the mightiest mortal/being in existence) caps at being “probably” stronger than Beerus, but FP Jiren is already in the same tier as Beerus and “perhaps” even stronger, and he powers up ENORMOUSLY from that point.
To go on another tangent, the idea that the director’s quote “had” to be referring to MUI because otherwise “Goku and Vegeta are equals” overlooks the context of the statement, I.e. setting up the events of the movie. And in the movie, [SPOILER - highlight to read]: we actually see that Goku is indeed outpacing Vegeta combatively, given their respective performances against Broly in base, Super Saiyan, and Super Saiyan God, and there is no UI whatsoever. All the director says is that Goku is pretty close to the Gods, and that Vegeta is right behind him. The idea this has to be referring to UI because Vegeta is “right behind him” and not “equal to him” is ridiculous.
__________________ ”You presume limits to my power. There are none.”
And if we’re going to go with the “when in doubt, go with the later villain winning” approach, I’m not sure that’s necessarily the case. Things have been framed differently now that Goku no longer has any sort of access MUI.
__________________ ”You presume limits to my power. There are none.”
SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta WERE portrayed as equals in the film, and THAT'S what we should be looking at -- their MAX powers.
If we look at their lower levels, then at first glance it makes it seem like BASE Goku ~/> SSG Vegeta, based on their individual bouts with Ikari Broly. Obviously I'm not going to assume that base Goku can actually hang with SSG Vegeta in a battle, because that's just foolish. There were clearly inconsistencies in how their respective power-levels were portrayed in the film UNTIL Goku and Vegeta both reached their SSB states and equalized. Additionally, it was never implied that Goku had to lower his ki to match Vegeta's before they fused, which further implies that they were intended to be equals.
IOW, in the anime, manga, AND film, FP Vegeta is on par with FP Goku. UI is literally *the* only thing that puts Goku noticeably ahead of Vegeta -- *the* only thing that Vegeta would still be "desperately trying to catch up to" at this point.
As for Broly and Jiren: Freeza has sensed BOTH of their powers, and still believed Broly was well beyond ALL in the light novel(and again, that wasn't even FPSSJ Broly -- it was just normal SSJ Broly.) Couple that with the promotional material citing Broly as the strongest being they have ever faced, and the only unfused being who has been confirmed as 'probably' more powerful than Beerus(THE most powerful GoD), and I'd say Broly's intended level is pretty clear, tbh.
And as I said to carv: FP Jiren being more powerful than Belmond does not make him more powerful than Beerus by default, given that Beerus is far and away the most powerful GoD. So that comparison doesn't work for me. I understand where you're coming from, but it simply comes down to me viewing the evidence at hand a bit differently than you.
Toriyama clearly has Beerus on a [very dynamic] sliding scale where power is concerned. The stronger Goku and Vegeta are written, the stronger Beerus seems to become as a corollary. In BoG it supposedly takes 70% of Beerus' power to defeat n00b-SSG Goku. Fast-forward to just after the Zamasu arc(set AFTER Goku/Vegeta had trained in the RoSaT for a few days/years AND received multiple zenkais from all the battles they'd been involved in since BoG), and Beerus can casually one-arm ragdoll FPSSB Vegeta after becoming slightly annoyed. Fast-forward to the Zen Exhibition Match, and Goku is absolutely awestruck by the power/skill Beerus is displaying against the other GoDs, and flat-out states he couldn't possibly hope to compete with him. Fast-forward to the Broly film, and the director implies that Beerus is still above even MUI Goku, and Goku STILL uses Beerus' power as a measuring stick for Broly's power, despite all of the hyper-powerful warriors he'd encountered at the ToP(inc. FP Jiren.)
And tbh, all of this aligns with the statement Toriyama made when he was promoting DBS a while back: "Well... First off, right now I don't have any plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis."
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Last edited by Galan007 on Dec 25th, 2018 at 02:06 AM
The Vegeta vs Beerus fight, was Vegeta koed or did Beerus just plow him into the dirt? Iirc, Vegeta was giving Beerus a good fight and that speaks volumes to me given that it took Beerus true power to take Vegeta out (dont remember if he was koed or not). Also, TOP Vegeta>>>>the Vegeta Beerus fought.
Vegeta got carried away and struck Beerus(a punch Beerus tanked without hardly flinching, mind you.) Beerus then got annoyed, and proceeded to casually one arm-pwn Vegeta back to his base level.
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__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
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Dec 19th, 2018 05:01 PM
