The Oracle

Originally posted by icon
Sorry My Friend, but Seraph protects that which matters most, and what the Oracle values most as well. The Future. In the game movie, the oracle says "Even I cannot see past the End."
Niobe "Are you saying the world is going to end?"
Oracle "Yes, if we cannot stop it."

Seraph is the Time Keeper, or something along that line. He is not protecting the oracle, or as you think "God"

But as for why he is Gold, I'm still working that out.

I never said my theory was cast in stone. Its just one of many... 😉

Omega> That is correct, they have no "Choice", but they did not have to accept it. I'm still working on the details, but if Second Renaissance..
No. What if, as you said "Omega", Zion was written for humans to co-habitate with machines, and was decided beforehand what would happen. If we take everything the Architect says with a grain of salt, perhaps the Machines knew, before creating Zion, that the humans wouldn't accept them. What if, Zion was destined to fall, so that, they could have this secondary measure of security, this, "HAHA you got out of the Matrix, but you'll never get out of Zion, cause you don't know the truth". And, i think that the first and second attempt were fluid, back to back, because in "second Renaissance" it says that many humans were tortured with protein substances. This, the idea that Zion is really Matrix v1.0, would explain how Neo stopped the Sentinels, and would explain the "forgotten trailer", b/c the w-ski bros wanted to do three movies when they made Bound, and they had to draw out the entire thing, at least for one movie, before WB allowed them to do Matrix.

Just a cookie...

Errrm, doesn't it make sense that the Oracle IS Future? By this I mean, she is the program for Future. 2 things tell me this.

I'm interested in one thing, Neo, the Future......

&

We're all here to do, what we're all here to do.

But you could also add:

An Intuitive program...

Ahh well, think of it what you will as it was just what I thought the most logical.

I don't think she is FUTURE, per se, i just think that she is a program designed to read the formula of the matrix, and from that is able to "see" the future. I think there may be a time-keeper program, but i don't think Oracle is programmed for that function, just to read the matrix.Also, is this is her programming, don't you think that, although she is "trying" to help the humans, she is still controlled by what she is told/sees in the matrix?

i say she is similiar to a help programme.....or something like that

I’m still not too sure about Zion being Matrix 1.0. The machines have control over the city in the sublime “prophecy” way, so it does not NEED to be a simulation, for the AI’s to have their control.
If we go back to the time the AI was created, we do not really KNOW what happened. I’m not sure I should trust “Second Renaissance”, since it has survived five destructions by the machines, but remained intact. It begins with “Zion database”, and here’s a problem.
In M1 Morpheus says “we do not know who started the war, but we know it was us who scorched the skies.” SR shows it was man who started the war. Why hasn’t a man like Morpheus read the Zion database?
But a war did happen. Man lost, the sky was black. The machines started to use mankind as batteries. To keep the “fuel” docile, a program (The Architect) wrote a VR world (maybe with someone else. The “first” Mother).
Some humans survived the war, and hid in underground cities. The first VR world is a disaster, “entire crops were lost.” The Architect writes a new VR world, and in conjunction with an intuitive program creates the Matrix that we know.
In the meantime the free humans are busy hacking this world, to free their fellow man. Much to their surprise one man is able to bend and break the rules of reality in a completely new way = The first anomaly of Matrix 2.1 is on it’s way.
The machines adapt. The Oracle is sent to investigate this anomaly. She sends him to the Architect. The machines dig, and destroy ALL human cities. The first One reach the Architect, who gives him a choice. Return to the source with the code, or be responsible for the destruction of all mankind.

The Architect realises that the anomaly is integral to the matrix. It will appear again. The first One is allowed to pick 23 pod-humans and rebuild but ONE of the cities. Zion. These 23 humans believe the first One freed himself, and them, and took them to an abandoned city beneath the ground. The prophecy continues. Mankind multiplies, a hundred years pass (100. Neo is, ironically, associated with 101. It could mean something. Yay, over interpretation R US 🙂).
This time the system is ready for the anomaly. Mankind in Zion is ready. The Oracle is woven into their destiny. And so on and so forth. The machines have complete control over Zion. They know exactly were it is, and can dig to destroy it at any time the choose. But they NEED something to black-mail the anomaly with. Their agents ruthlessly pursue and torture rebels, ONLY to make the prophecy seem real (Smith interrogation Morpheus in M1 is an illusion. The AI’s know were Zion is. That is not what Smith is really after. Hell is, after all, repetition.)
There is, however, a VR world we’ve left out. Namely Zion Control.

remember the sewers used to be cities that spanned hundreds of miles...

the machines cannot kill the human race, they need a human to make the choice - the one

Myabe it is that Smith DOESN'T know where Zion is, maybe he doesn't know that there were other anomalies, maybe he is just an ignorant police man, that can jump over streets and dodge bullets. And if we dont trust SR, how can we trust anything? "It is a pickle, no doubt about that." And i think you subsribe more to the coincidence rather than purpose ideality. The machines are not meant to reach Zion until the one reaches the Architect. Everything has a purpose, and i'm not saying my theory is perfect, or right, but you have to figure purpose into everything, even so-called "human choice".

i think the zion mainframe being able to survive five destructions is irrelevant to us being able to watch second renaissance, the bros wanted to show us the history of how it all happened, i dont think it would be a lie

Smith knew about Matrix 1.0. In M1 he elaborates on it to Morpheus. A priori there should be no reason to assume, that system agents don’t know the entire truth, if they know about 1.0.
I think Smith wants to END the loops. The endless Matrix 2.x going over and over and over again. And now he has the chance. Neo has created a virus-code in Smith (Neos first action as the One was – after all – to create a virus.). I think (as written earlier in another thread), that the Ones in each run of the Matrix accidentally creates a virus (viz. a viz. the cataclysmic system crash).
I agree that the machines are not set to start digging until the One is on the path to the Architect. What I meant by my previous post is, that the machines could start digging at any odd time they wanted. They’ve known the location of Zion since the first Anomaly.
Rereading said previous post, I realise I’m not being completely clear 🙂

My point is, that Zion can still be part of “the system of control” without being virtual. Many things from M1, are no longer what they appear. Zion is not a free city as such. It, too, is another system of control. The freedom enjoyed by the rebels is an illusion. The path of the One is control. The Oracles prophecies are control.

Humans, as just that, human beings, don’t have any purpose as such. Whatever purpose our rebels receive in the Matrix, are given to them by a program: The Oracle.

Morpheus was told he’d find The One. Trinity was told she’d fall in love with The One. Neo, that he was waiting for his next life to be The One. But was Cypher told, that he’d betray Morpheus?

In interpreting the films, you can speak of two types of “purpose”. One is the actions of each character, and how it affects the storyline. Cyphers “purpose” in M1 was to make it possible for the agents to catch Morpheus, so Neo would become The One.

The other type of purpose is the “path/destiny” given to our brave protagonists by the Oracle.

shes very old, shes been with us since the beginning -of the resistance

what did the oracle tell morpheus so he split up with niobe!?!

Burlyman> The only thing we know for sure, that Morpheus has from the Oracle, is that Morpheus would find the One. So perhaps he shut out everything else from his life but his quest?

similar to why ghost is celibate? (as he explains to trinity after zen garden)

trinity said to neo something along the lines of 'one day he went to see the oracle, after that everything changed'
bit sudden

I understand how you can say that Trinity was told that she would fall in love with the one being her "purpose", but it was her purpose to go into the Matrix after the other ship is destroyed, so that Neo can enter the Architects room, and to force Neo to make the "other" decision, which she did entirely of her own accord, she was not told she would do this by the Oracle, she chose to risk her life for Neo by herself. The Fact that she would fall in love with the one helped the process, but it was no one else's decision to go in. also, the One and the 23 humans have the choice to build anywhere they want, not just where the previous Zion was located. In this, if Zion is not a program, then the Machines would have to follow a ship to find Zion, and no ship would allow this to occur. therefore, the Sentinels would have to travel all over and through the world in order to find it, and they had one hundred years, but once they found it, they should just send all Sentinels to that area and Destroy it, not wait for the one to fulfill his quest. This is why i find it hard to believe that Zion is really the real world.

Trinity entering the Matrix, and ending up in a situation that Neo dreamed at the beginning of the movie is, ironically, just like the vase in the Oracles apartment in M1.
“Oh, and don’t worry about the vase.” “What vase?” Crash.
I know understand your definition of purpose a little better. It is the story-line type definition of purpose. She wasn’t MEANT to do that, as such. Neo dreams, he worries. And by asking Trinity to NOT enter the Matrix, he creates the scene he foresaw in his dream.

About the previous Ones and their group of 23: The Architect says “rebuild Zion.” In another thread we discussed why none of Neo’s predecessors ever left as much as a single warning to their successor, that the prophecy was a lie. So that the next anomaly and the next population of Zion would have a chance of truly freeing mankind.
We don’t really know how a loop of the matrix starts. You have the previous One, who’s just left the Source. He’s probably given a hovercraft, and he now starts freeing 23 humans. If he does NOT go to Zion he, and his little group, could easily be tracked down by sentinels and killed. This is the kind of constant control I’m talking about.

Just want to say excellent thread.

Couple of things:

I tend to think the Oracle is the morther of the Matrix. Based on this quote from Kneau:

REEVES: I think in terms of the representation of the films, the Brothers don't tend to do things like that, like hood-wink you. It's not like, "I see dead people", where you are watching this whole movie and then, "By the way... " I don't think they do that kind of cinema. So my answer to your question is no. I don't think it is so boxes within boxes. I think that Zion is Zion.

Keeping that in mind who is the most motherly figure? The Oracle.

She guides Neo. When Neo first sits down in Reloaded to talk to her the manner the Oracle uses is very motherly. The "Let's get the obvious out of the way." She doesn't tell Neo but rather let's him make a conclusion based on his own reasoning.

She offers him a cookie in M1 and candy in M2.

Also Omega hit a key point when she(?) said Zion does not need to be in the Matrix to be a level of control.

burlyman: It's not what she said to him, but what she did to him? 🙂

yeah, the candy, the cookie, are both excellent guises, both for the truth and for something else... ;D

Davidh304> (I’m a she) I agree that the Oracle is THE most obvious candidate for “Mother of the Matrix.” Neo says what everyone thinks in the Scene with the Architect.

The Architect:”… Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another – an intuitice program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the Matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.”

Neo: “The Oracle.”

The Architect: “Please! As I was saying… “

It’s the Architects frowning, that’s made us think the Mother could be someone else. Like Persephone. But look at this (from Plato, Meno 81b)

They say that the soul of man is immortal, and at one time comes to an end, which is called dying, and at another is born again, but never perishes. Consequently one ought to live all one's life in the utmost holiness. For from whomsoever Persephone shall accept requital for ancient wrong, the souls of these she restores in the ninth year to the upper sun again ..."

Persephone is THE Goddess of the Underworld. Not a very motherly station. In the myths The Architect could very well play the role of Zeus, and the Oracle that of Demeter (a very motherly goddess).
But that once again leaves us with the questions:
Which two programs sold the Oracles shell-termination code?
Which child did they do that to protect?