Omega I love you. 🙂
You basicly summed up what I was going to say to SimplePriest as to why I changed my mind about the MWIAM Theory.
What comes to my mind is what The Arc said at the begining of there conversation.
Architect: I am the Architect. I created the Matrix. I have been waiting for you. You have many questions and although the process has altered your consciousness you remain irrevocably human, ergo some of my answers you will understand and some of them you will not.
How does that have anything to do with the MWAM theory? just because Neo's attained a conciousness higher than that of his friends, means there is no MWAM? WHAT?! I wish people would explain their reasoning, because i STILL have yet to hear justifiable evidence as to why the MWAM theory is wrong, or your theory is more "correct" than mine...
Urot> 😖mart:
JediHDM> I can’t prove that the MWTM theory is wrong altogether. But I can argue for the real world being real in the following way:
1) What originally made half the Reloaded watchers go “Goodness, there has to be another Matrix!”? (I know I did.) Neo stopped the Sentinels like they were bullets. They simply short-circuited and crashed. The Source-download, this altered conscience, can explain that.
2) Smith downloaded into Bane. Our brains work through bio-chemical electricity. People have been know to have drastically altered their psyche after a strong electrical shock. So Smith infected Banes digital self, and when this digital self was down-loaded BACK into Bane, the electrical signals were controlled by Bane.
3) Neo stops even more sentinels in the new trailer. Same as 1.
After countless discussion one argument changed my mind. A matrix within the matrix would be TOO easy an explanation. The Wachoski-brothers have, up until now, adhered to classic storytelling, a hero, a quest, a heroine, a fate-teller, helpers, an enemy, obstacles etc. etc etc. All they’ve done is to twist the environment. Finally: The real world being virtual is too big of a concept to introduce in a conclusion. Conclusions tie up loose ends, make the big sweep to answer all questions, and END the story. If the MWtM is true, Revolutions will have to be four hours long.
First Morpheus and Trinity have to find the Logos. The Hammer will probably do that, and Trinity/Morph goes to the Oracle, who sends Seraph with them to club Hel to free Neo. The Observer/Spectator makes an appearance (although I still haven’t figured out his role in all of this). Neos digital self is transferred back to his body, and the machines and Bane attack.
Trin/Neo fly to (presumably) 01 to try and make peace with the machines (“If you say everything will be okay I’ll trust you.” “I can’t help but feel that you’re not coming back.” “I’m scared”.) Neo enters 01 in the real world and is attacked by the machines, but reaches the big SPEAK-machine. War breaks out, and Neo fights Smith.
And THEN, to top that off, we need to sort the Matrix within the Matrix out.
Omega> Ok, im sorry, its not that im trying to be difficult, but, could you please explain how Neo downloading the Source/part of the Source, would affect him being able to stop Sentinels in the real world? we don't even know if the Source has any control over Machines in the real world; for all we know, they are on thier own.
2) Im not sure what you're saying, or how this pertains. Bane is no more; he is all Smith now. This is evident from the spots. Therefore, if Bane is no more, Bane is really Smith, so Smith controls the electical-signals, not non-existant Bane.
3) i have posted this in another thread, but i cant remember which one, so i will reiterate. What if, the point the Wachowskis are trying to make, is that we can never really know if we are free or not. What if, their point is that, the most "aware" person, is still a slave, still a lemming, following orders, unaware of the truth. It would not necessarily take any more time, as it could end up with Neo waking up from Zion, and going insane/dying/whatever, because his mind cannot grasp the fact that, he still, may not be free.
Again, im not trying to be difficult, im just trying to understand your POV, but i need more information, cause mine is still looking REALLY good. oh, one more thing, MWAM need not be the easy way out, there are probably much easier ways, that we have not even considered.
Originally posted by JediHDM
SimplePriest> No, these trailers enhance, IMO, my idea/theory; MWTM. When i see Bane turn into Smith right before Neo, i see proof.
the smith on fire thing is from another scene (the firy smith's lips don't move for one, and it's used in another context in one of the other trailers), it's been edited in just for the trailer, as happens always.
Omega> yeah. I think you hit all the anti-MWAM points. They certainly are the ones that I would have brought up. But somehow... I don't know why, I'm entertaining the idea of a MWAM. I'm just keeping my mind open.
Urot> ? I don't understand where you were going with that quote. Could you explain it a little more.
JediHDM> at least Urot explains things a little better. I guess now one just has to accept or reject "good story telling" as a valid factor in their decision. However... Ahhh, this is the big point... What Each Person thinks is good story telling tends to be an Opinion. So Urot may think that it would "hurt" the story to have a MWAM (and I've told you that I lean towards that idea sometimes). But you do not see it that way. Hmmm. I find that interesting.
All> In other words, some of these other facts have been things we could point to in movie clips, parts of the script, interviews, comics, etc. But now we are bringing up something that is not a tangible fact. It's not something that can be grasped and has a right or wrong. We're bringing up story telling, and what is good or bad. Obviously, this will vary from person to person. Who is right? OR how bout this, Who is more objective in deciding how the movie will go IF story telling is their determining factor? Hmm. I just think that it's interesting and I JUST thought of all this now.
My mind remains open. What are your thoughts?
JediHDM> I know you’re not trying to be difficult. If we all agreed here on everything what would we do? Count the seconds down? 😄
The Source is THE Machine Mainframe. It’s not just another system of control. It is THE system of control. In the Matrix Neo uploads himself and through the anomaly is able to alter the programming of the virtual world. We know from ETM that Neos “mind touched the source”, and that is where I believe he, through the anomaly code, was able to copy the programming of the Source (the anomaly has altered his conscience, as the Architect says).
Now all Neo has to do is access the Mainframe mentally, to, say, stop sentinels. But the realisation overwhelmed him, he can SEE the entire Matrix now, from beginning to end, EVEN when he’s not uploaded.
Ehrmm… about Smith/Bane. I MEANT controlled by SMITH, not Bane. Sorry about that.
The philosophical point you make in 3) is exactly what the brothers elaborate on in Reloaded. While the two worlds remain the distinctly different, nothing is the same when Reloaded is over. The prophecy is a lie, Zion (while being real) is another system of control, Neo is not unique, he’s the sixth One, and was never meant to end anything. Everything we was brought to believe in M1 is no longer true or real.
If the Wachoski-brothers turn around, and say “The real world is virtual”, they’re “just” remaking M1. But without the surprise. In M1 strange thing are going on, real-time writing on screens, a cool cyber-heroine doing the impossible, the strange, elusive Morpheus, and Neos constant feeling of “there is something wrong.” When we’re presented with the truth, the Matrix, everything makes sense, and the journey begins.
IF the W-brothers wanted the real world to be virtual, and wait with revealing that until the conclusion, they’ve made a grave error. We have not met a SINGLE individual from the REAL real world. There is no reason to make me WISH the real world is wrong or virtual. That should’ve been done in M2, for it to make any sense.
SimplePriest> I’m not ruling out a MWtM. I’m merely noting that this far, the W-brothers have stuck to classical storytelling, so classical it’s almost like the rewritten tale of Prometheus. I’m not talking about a good or bad story, I’ve merely seen a “classic” story, like in fairy tales and/or old myths and legends.
Rysdigital> THAT is of course also possible. That the scenes we’ve seen in the trailers are edited together to make the confusion complete. Maybe that golden fire shot of Smith happens somewhere else. But where??
Omega> But thats the point, only the One has the power to realize the Zion is not real, but all the others have chosen the Source. If Neo is the first, the ONE, he will be the "man born inside [the Matrix], who had the ability to change whatever he wanted, to remake the Matrix as he saw fit. It was he who freed the first of us." Did everything in Matrix make sense, before Reloaded was released, or did it fit all snugly into place? There were questions posed by the first one, problems, that weren't answered until M2. Reloaded, and Revolutions, are two parts of the same movie, so, just as the the answers are not all explained until the end of the movie/trilogy, so all the questions will not fit snugly into place until Reloaded. Thus, when i see questions that seem, to me, to point to MWAM, then i jump on it, because it is the both the most feasible and outlandish possibility i can see. It is not necessarily correct, but it is what i believe. sorry, i just realized im writing alot, but im not finished yet. take a breather, cool down, and...ok, Just because, thus far, the Wachowski Bros. have stuck to a "Classical" story, doesn't mean that they will not throw us a loop by jumping off the old plot and using a completely new design recipe. Also, i dont see why those spots are not too be taken literaly, as they are not even supposed to be SEEN yet... Why would they try to confuse a public that WONT see it, unless it is illegally shown?
Ok, thanks a lot to ALL of you who mailed me with… you know what… I’m actually a little touched by the amount of mails. Domo Arigato! 🙂
JediHDM> I think we both agree on the fact, that NEO, by not choosing the Source, not only showed a rebellious nature, but now also, for the first time in hundreds of years realised something more. What the more is, is where we diverge.
Sure, WHY Neo was able to do the things he did, wasn’t explained in the Matrix. Neither how this entire uploading of a human mind was brought about. As I wrote above, I’m not discounting the MWTM theory, to me it just contradicts the flavour of the story. I’ve written a few times, that Neo bears resemblance to not only a Christian Messiah or the Greek Prometheus, but also a Buddhist Enlightened One – a boddishatva. Someone whose perception transcends the illusion of life. But it is ONLY the one illusion. And the quest doesn’t stop there. Neo chose to become The One, in “The Matrix.” Reloaded and Revolutions deals with the consequences of that choice. NOT, as I see it, another complete transcendence.
Realising that the world Neo knew wasn’t real, was transcendence. But was the prophecy really a lie? Are there more veils to be lifted? No. Why? Because the answer still lies within the context of the prophecy – the prophecy of the One. The man who has the means to end the war. Not, though, by following the prophecy literally. But by believing in the possibility of ending the war.
Just a thought......Don't know if it's been mentioned before though..
We know that the path of the one is to end the war with the machines. We've all been led to believe that to end the war, Neo needs to destroy the machines.
In the Second Renaisaince, the story tells how man could not get along with the machines, and inevitabley started a war (Sorry, a machine killed two humans and was not given a fair trial).
Now, maybe Neo goes to "01" to call a truce to a war that started centuries ago.... By destroying the program SMITH, as an insurance to the humans devotion to get it to work.... Thus ending the war as the Oracle prophesised.
Might be a bit too happy for an ending, but you never know.
MagicRat