I don't see anything in the movies that suggest the machines or matrix is trying to figure out what love is. Or how to program it into people.
I do see love conquering all themes (Neo & Trinty dying and coming back to life).
As for the rest, you hypothosis about comments, decisions, roles, meetings and events that we have no knowlegdge of.
I don't agree, but that's the thing with opinions. Everyone has one. And they ain't all the same.
We do know about the events. We know the Oracle created the Prophecy, we also know that a program stumbled upon the answer, we know that Persephone feeds from emotion ie, love when she kisses them. What else do you want me to explain - oh BTW, I haven't finished yet. There is more ideas to come, but I get bored of typing for ages, so that's why I have split it up.
I never said anything about them trying to program it into people, people already CAN love and that is the whole bloody point.
Well you see Reloaded was a very good movie ( 😈 critics u suck!)! Sifer I totally agree. Let me add something : The machines are using the human bodies as a battery because it is a very effective way to gain energy. Imagine the waste if the machines threw away the dead human bodies (they don't have ethics-it is the same as we throw away the meat we don't eat). The machines will never find out love. They may find the EFFECT but not the CAUSE. They don't have the inpredictabillity of the human race!
Sifer> A communication breech. Let me rephrase: Why do you think the sky isn’t still scorched?
“They think there is only one way for it to go - to be accepted as humans.”
That’s the reasoning of a human. Not a machine. And answering miggfl’s point with ”we will see” is evasive at it’s best.
You’re not proving anything. You’re stating it as fact. Please back up your assumption with something from the movies other than a line from the Archie, which can be interpreted in a million ways.
” When the original matrix was created, 2 programs were created in order to try and love. Who are these programs? The Merovingian and Persephone.”
They could also simply be two programs from the original Matrix, the perfect world (as a machine sees it at least), which managed to avoid deletion.
“So another Matrix was created, using human kinds evil past where all manners of programs appeared.”
And the machines did this, because… ? What kind of AI-logic would use evil to learn about love?
” Look of satisfaction on the Architect's face becomes very apparent.”
That’s certainly open for interpretation. The Architect showed zero (pardon the pun) emotion.
”To deny our own impulses is to deny the very thing that makes us human...”
When the Merovingian realises what Persephone has done in M2, he swears angrily at her, and tells her about her little game. Obviously some programs are aware of, and already use emotions.
nerm: It is what he said - most of it. I said at the beginning of this thread that I don't claim this as my own. Everything just seems to fit.
Also Omega, we WILL see in November. It isn't evasive, it IS fact so stop being patronising and sarcastic. I said at the beginning that I don't claim that this is what WILL happen, but it is something I BELIEVE will happen. Obviously you don't read very well.
You also talk as if you know what it is like to be a machine.
"What kind of AI Logic is that" - Well these are the same AI that are using humans as a battery source...supposedly. The machines know the rebels are so naive that they will believe anything. Would you believe it if you woke up and had never even see this movie...I think you would.
Also the sky being torched, why don't I think it still is. Well 2nd Ren:
Sky when it is scorched is black - mega black - no cracks or breaks in the clouds. If you aint noticed, there is a sun shining through the clouds in the movies. Don't you think the machines would be clever enough to (if 01 skies were covered) build above it? I think so.
I'm sure you're just trying to run it down because you didn't think of it. I certainly didn't think of it but I think it is THE best explanation out of any that I have read here or around the web.
That’s certainly open for interpretation. The Architect showed zero (pardon the pun) emotion.When the Merovingian realises what Persephone has done in M2, he swears angrily at her, and tells her about her little game. Obviously some programs are aware of, and already use emotions.
Do they show love - errr, I don't think they do. I said at the beginning, it is all about LOVE - in specific...LOVE. Love is the key and the machines want to feel it. You don't have to believe it, but you're are asking questions and proposing faults that I have already given an explanation for, but obviously you didn't see them.
Sifer> You do not go into debating miggfl’s point. That IS evasive. A tautological truth is certainly not an answer. And stop being so damn paranoid every single time we disagree, and revert to your usual and tiresome names-calling and accusations.
“You also talk as if you know what it is like to be a machine.”
No, I’m using Morpheus’ :”That’s the thinking of a machine.” And what the Ai’s and the machine-world has done up until now.
I still want to know how you think a machine would deduce, that human evil would teach them about human love. And why they (the machines) would want that? There is logican in using humans as batteries if you’re a machine, and it’s the easiest power-source available.
Second Renaissance is an animated movie. So their scorched sky interpretation may be slightly different from the movies, just as the Animatrix Trin doesn’t exactly look like the movie Trin.
Why don’t you think HUMANS build above the clouds? The tallest buildings being built right now have massive engineering challenges to face, mass-distributions, weather, etc. It’s not that easy to JUST build above the skies.
“I'm sure you're just trying to run it down because you didn't think of it.”
(Circus music).
”I said at the beginning, it is all about LOVE - in specific...LOVE. Love is the key and the machines want to feel it.”
But why do you think that? My problem is, that it doesn’t make any sense.
What WOULD make sense to me would be a somewhat different scenario: The machines as the machine-RACE don’t care about love or other human emotions for that matter. Why should they? They see themselves as superior to humans.
But a handful of programs, at some point in time, started wondering if there perhaps was a way to live together peacefully with mankind. But to do so, they’d have to understand humans. THAT is where I think Rama and child AND the Oracle comes into play. A handful of programs, not the machine-world as such.
I still want to know how you think a machine would deduce, that human evil would teach them about human love. And why they (the machines) would want that? There is logican in using humans as batteries if you’re a machine, and it’s the easiest power-source available.
Again, something I have already given the answer to.
Second Renaissance is an animated movie. So their scorched sky interpretation may be slightly different from the movies, just as the Animatrix Trin doesn’t exactly look like the movie Trin.
Why don’t you think HUMANS build above the clouds? The tallest buildings being built right now have massive engineering challenges to face, mass-distributions, weather, etc. It’s not that easy to JUST build above the skies.
Rubbish. 2nd Ren was written by WB's themselves - we know for a fact that they don't make mistakes like that. Also, easiest power source available? Is it really?
You said in a thread not too long ago that the Machines seem to be into recycling. Why would they bother when they have the sun right up above them? Why would they bother building the Matrix so we can rebel against them and have all the fuss of a reload. Oh, and then they have to grow us, recycle us and maintain us. That isn't what I would call EASY. I would call building some solar powered generators above the clouds - not have to maintain it, and have it be an unlimited power source MUCH easier.
tallest buildings being built right now have massive engineering challenges to face, mass-distributions, weather, etc. It’s not that easy to JUST build above the skies.
Have you taken a look at how tall the "Power Plants" are? Hrmmm.
No, I’m using Morpheus’ :”That’s the thinking of a machine.”
Firstly, Morpheus says: That SOUNDS exactly like the machine to me. He doesn't know, he assumes.
I still want to know how you think a machine would deduce, that human evil would teach them about human love. And why they (the machines) would want that?
Again, have you actually watched 2nd Renaissance properly? Also, I said that they ATTEMPTED to use evil, but realised it cannot be found through it. Why would they want love?
"Man endowed the machines with the very spirit of man"
Would you want no emotions? To be created in the likeness of your parents but they forgot to give you 1 important thing? I doubt you would - Think about it.
What WOULD make sense to me would be a somewhat different scenario: The machines as the machine-RACE don’t care about love or other human emotions for that matter. Why should they? They see themselves as superior to humans.
Again, watch 2nd Renaissance. You obviously can't take the hint - who was it who tried to make peace not once, but twice? Us? Was it ****. Them? Indeed. Who tried to wipe them out both times? You got it, US.
LOL
Also, anyone ever notice a certain crashed hovership near the beginning of "Matriculated"? 😉
Speaking of Matriculated:
Woman: "Will it --? Do you think it'll convert"
Scientist: "To convert is it's choice to make"
Woman: "Do you think maybe we ought to reprogram it?"
Scientist: "No, we can't make slaves of them"
Woman: "Because that would be simpler."
Scientist: "We won't beat the machines by making them our slaves. Better to let them join us by choice."
Woman: "Make them believe that the right choice is the one we want them to make."
Scientist: "All right. Yes, machines are tools. They're made to be used. It's their nature"
Woman: "To be slaves"
Scientist: "That's why we can show them a better world, why they convert."
Woman: "But that world we show them isn't real."
Scientist: "It doesn't matter"
Woman: "I'm afraid they'll figure out that we've made the thing up in our heads."
Scientist: "They can't tell the difference. To an artifical mind, all reality is virtual. How do they know that the real world isn't just another simulation? How do you?"
Woman: "I know I'm not dreaming now because I know what it's like being in a dream."
Scientist: "So dreaming let's you know reality exists."
Woman: "No. Just that my mind exists, I don't know about the rest."
Imagine this, but with the machines saying it...
Sifer> I do see no where that you explain why the machines deduce, that learning about human evil, would teach them about human love. It would be easy for you to simply point to the thread in question. You can’t I see.
“Rubbish. 2nd Ren was written by WB's themselves.”
Did I say they didn’t write it. I said it was an ANIMATED movie. As in cartoons, you know? Therefore the animators version of the scorched sky can look different from the movies scorched sky. JUST AS the Animatrix Trinity looks different from the Movie trinity.
(And a sidenote: When I look at the beginning of the Revolutions trailer the sky DOES look very scorched and black to me).
“You said in a thread not too long ago that the Machines seem to be into recycling. Why would they bother when they have the sun right up above them?”
They have to get up above the scorched sky. They’d have to get energy to build platforms durable enough to withstand the strain on a building reaching kilometres into the sky.
“Why would they bother building the Matrix so we can rebel against them and have all the fuss of a reload.”
They didn’t built the Matrix so humans CAN rebel. See the Architects speech again, please.
“Oh, and then they have to grow us, recycle us and maintain us. That isn't what I would call EASY.”
The system is there, with the pods and fields and machines that harvest the fetuses. It works on auto-pilot. That IS easy. It’s… there.
“Have you taken a look at how tall the "Power Plants" are? Hrmmm.”
Have you? Hm?
” Also, I said that they ATTEMPTED to use evil, but realised it cannot be found through it”
But I’m asking you, why YOU think a machine would deduce that human evil would teach them about human love. Not why they changed tactics.
” "Man endowed the machines with the very spirit of man"”
Yes? And? I don’t know how you saw that, but I saw it in the ”creators-creations” context, just like the gods of myths create humans in their images, mankind created machines in their image. What does that do to prove your idea of machines thirsting for love?
“Would you want no emotions? To be created in the likeness of your parents but they forgot to give you 1 important thing? I doubt you would - Think about it.”
What I want, being human, has zip to do with this. The humans, you know, didn’t create cudly li’l machine babies, that grew up to become big machines.
”Again, watch 2nd Renaissance. You obviously can't take the hint - who was it who tried to make peace not once, but twice? Us? Was it ****. Them? Indeed. Who tried to wipe them out both times? You got it, US.”
I obviously do not THINK the way you do, no. I don’t interpret it like you do, no. The spirit of man is the wish for freedom. YOU, obviously totally miss the point: IF we’re to take Second Renaissance at face value (which I do not know if we should, why did the Zion database survive five Zion destructions?), man endows machines with his “spirit”, but enslaves the machines. As the machines learn, they wish for that, which every human wants. “Human rights”. In “human” style, the machines rebel and end up enslaving their former masters. Fate it seems, is not without a sense of irony. Brought to NEW heights in the last Animatrix story.
There are many themes of the Matrix. Such as “the BEST of both worlds.” Your theory makes the machines inferior because they lack love. That’s the thinking of a human, who believes being human is superior. But man needs machine and machines need man. They’re to complement each other, NOT become each other.
2nd Renaissance:
"They thought the machines wouldn't be able to survive without their main power source: The Sun"
Notice it says main, not ONLY. Also, please tell me where the bright lights in the distance are coming from then.
Then we have the sun shining through the clouds, none of that in 2nd Ren.
And yes I have looked at the size of the power plants. Mighty tall for a species without enough energy the energy to build things that high. If you also didn't notice, it was machine created aircraft which let us smoke the sky. Well, errm, if the machine created aircraft can be used to get that high, I am pretty darn sure the machines can also get that high.