Juggernaut or The Hulk?

Originally posted by Accel
No matter how much strength Cain summons, his strength will always have to begin and end somewhere.

To put it simply, there is no such thing as a punch with infinite power, no matter how much power you have.

Those two feats alone pretty much trump most of things on that list.

Because, ONCE AGAIN, you're confusing [B]infinite with limitless. His durability can keep increasing without limit, so it is unlimited.

And this is literally the umpteenth time I've had to explain it to you. [/B]

Can You please answer me one thing?

Earlier you stated that no matter how enraged with sufficient enough force the Hulk can be ko'd. You said Juggernaut couldn't accomplish this feat because he wasn't strong enough. I then gave a scan that proved that Cain has unlimited strength, and following that I gave a scan that displayed Juggernaut increasing his strength 100 fold. Can you please then tell me that with Juggernauts ability to increase his strength to uber lv's quickly, why he can't ko the Hulk? You've already stated that Hulk can be ko'd with sufficient enough force, and Cain has unlimited strength or force?

Originally posted by Soujaboy
Can You please answer me one thing?

Earlier you stated that no matter how enraged with sufficient enough force the Hulk can be ko'd. You said Juggernaut couldn't accomplish this feat because he wasn't strong enough. I then gave a scan that proved that Cain has unlimited strength, and following that I gave a scan that displayed Juggernaut increasing his strength 100 fold. Can you please then tell me that with Juggernauts ability to increase his strength to uber lv's quickly, why he can't ko the Hulk? You've already stated that Hulk can be ko'd with sufficient enough force, and Cain has unlimited strength or force?

I've expalined this TONS of times, but guess I'm going to have to keep explaining it. Probably to the same people.

All right, there are two factors to consider here.

1. Even though Cain can summon more strength, he won't immediately raise his strength to 50X stronger than what he priginially was.

2. Since Hulk will ALSO be in Bloodlust Mode (as is Cain, otherwise he wouldn't be focusing in the first place) he will naturally get very mad right away, casuing his strength and durability to rise dramatically. This means that even though Cain's strength will be increasing, so will Hulk's durability, and the cycle will continue- stalemate.

Originally posted by Soujaboy
[B]Juggernuat ko'd Thing in three hits(the Hulk has had trouble with the Thing)

Hulk has "trouble" in almost all his fights, no matter how High or Low. Unless they happen Off Panel of course.

Still Thing has never beaten Hulk (Except for one weakend version if Hard Knocks is canon). Thier rivalry is a legend and so it will never be decided easily.

Knocked the hell out of the Stranger

Stranger TKed the Hulk away thier first fight so a blow was never landed, and I can't find the Marvel 2-in-one (#5 Annual) to see if Hulk was able to land a blow.

It looks like he was able to from the scan in the respect thread but I can't see teh end

Beat the shit outa Thor on multiple ocassions

As has Hulk

For amusement value: http://img24.exs.cx/img24/5391/screwball3gx.jpg

Beat the shit outa Colossus

KOed Captain Marvel
http://img128.exs.cx/img128/7484/marvell1b0mh.jpg

Beat The shit outa Prof Hulk

A holding back CIS laden Professor, Savage fought off Juggs even after being calmed and re-angered

Knocked the Whole x Force team with one clap

Well Hulk's deflected a Universe Destroying blast with one clap, but with 2 attacks took out the Thunderbolts.

http://img145.exs.cx/img145/8531/thunderbolts16ny.jpg
http://img145.exs.cx/img145/2131/thunderbolts21ya.jpg

knocked over a skyscraper with one shrug

Ripped open a reinforced mountain base rather easily.
http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/7608/featsmountain7b8rf.jpg

described as throwing punches that could shatter wrolds

Hulk Shattered a World 2x the size of Earth, wasn't just said to do so.

ko'd Wolverine by backhanding him ( the Hulk has had trouble with Wolverine)

A rare moment when Wolverine doesn't get others to Job to him. 😄

knocked captain Britan a mile back with a playful punch

Hulk KOed Quasar with one smack
http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/7307/quasar20dq.jpg

knocked Rouge over a mountain with little to no effort

Hulk easily threw a huge android into space:

http://img301.imageshack.us/my.php?image=theincrediblehulkv210714oh6.jpg
http://img92.imageshack.us/my.php?image=theincrediblehulkv210716px5.jpg
http://img92.imageshack.us/my.php?image=theincrediblehulkv210717pf9.jpg

You want to compare Strength Feats and Hulk can top them every time.

How about you show him increasing his strength. Being shown as unable to do something at first and then capable of it.

Arguing that it's unlimited based on 2 powerups and a letter not even in an X-Book is shaky, especially if your excuse is "He gets just strong enough to do what he has to when he has to do it" without anything serious to back it up.

Originally posted by Dinalfos
I'd like to know what Marvel's latest handbook says about this. Handbooks aren't everything, but at least it gives us something more substantial and clear cut.

Sadly enough, the latest handbooks don't include Classic Juggernaut, just the depowered version.

Originally posted by Dinalfos
Now that you mention it....there's another reason not to take that ed's note entirely serious. How can you be stronger than someone who also has unlimited strength? Is Marvel ignoring the abilities of their own characters?

The don't have to ignore it. We don't have a rate of increase for either character but it could be as simple as Hulk's strength increase @ n+3 while Juggernaut's increases @ n+4.

No limit just Juggernaut always staying a little ahead.

Originally posted by Dalak
Still, you seem to be debating that Juggernaut can become Trion at will since he can call upon all of Cytorrak's power at will, and that isn't true at all.

That would be terrible as Juggernaut would then BFR his own self. It that allowable in the rules?

Originally posted by Dalak
Actually I just noticed something. If an Outside Entity has to regulate how much energy they get, then it's Outside Help, not the completely internal powerups that True Dynamic powersets have (Silver Surfer/Hulk)

Juggernaut's power was retconned in 8th Day to be the Exemplar of Physical Power by Cytorrak, so it would actually be a part of his powerset, by definition of 'exemplar' (and its synonym 'epitome'😉.

Originally posted by TheDecider
Also another time would be when he was down to just a skeleton and through will power and focus he still... dont remember the rest something happened though.

Spyte (?) forced D'Spyre (stupid names with stupid spelling 😛) to return his power to him.

Originally posted by Dalak
E: Seriously though, how many Class 100's has he KOed easily (1-3 hits like some are arguing)? I asked this before and was ignored, but it's because of my "Anti-Juggernaut Bias"

Well, not Thor because everytime he tapped Thor he went flying off into another building or something. Thor holds his ground against Juggernaut like a 11 year-old hold their liquor. Colossus gets slapped around. The thing with Thing. How many Class 100's has he gone against period? Captain Britan suffers from the same debilitating syndrome as Thor.

Originally posted by Dalak
How about you show him increasing his strength. Being shown as unable to do something at first and then capable of it.

Arguing that it's unlimited based on 2 powerups and a letter not even in an X-Book is shaky, especially if your excuse is "He gets just strong enough to do what he has to when he has to do it" without anything serious to back it up.

Ah, but there's nothing he can't do! Juggernaut has always been more than an X-Men villain, he crushes 'em all around the MU! 😄

Because I'm feeling stupid...

Originally posted by Accel
To put it simply, there is no such thing as a punch with infinite power, no matter how much power you have.

Thanos with the Inifinity Gauntlet or the HOTU/I would disagree with you there! 😛

Originally posted by Accel
*sigh*

I've expalined this TONS of times, but guess I'm going to have to keep explaining it. Probably to the same people.

All right, there are two factors to consider here.

1. Even though Cain can summon more strength, he won't immediately raise his strength to 50X stronger than what he priginially was.

2. Since Hulk will ALSO be in Bloodlust Mode (as is Cain, otherwise he wouldn't be focusing in the first place) he will naturally get very mad right away, casuing his strength and durability to rise dramatically. This means that even though Cain's strength will be increasing, so will Hulk's durability, and the cycle will continue- stalemate.

1. So cain wont increase his strength 100 fold right away, cool, i can live with that.

2. Hulk will be very angry right away so his strength and durability will rise dramatically. Alright thats cool i can li.........

Wait a minute, You Sly dog, You tried to get one past me, meh, you almost had me, if I was just a little more incoherrent. For some reason (remember you guys like tend to think them on panel feats>>>Editors) even tho Thor said his strength increased 100 fold, what, in a matter of seconds, For some reason he wont be doing it here. HMMMMMM. How long would it take for Juggernaut to Muster up enought Strength to Jar/Daze Hulk, because thats all he needs, One stunning shot, after that, a flurry of class godly punches rain down on Hulk.

Overload or pain>>>>>>>>Hulks rage.

This is fact, you cant deny this, I dont care what you say, YOU CAN NOT DENY THIS. Hulk will not have Unlimited Durability at the start of the fight, but Juggernauts Strength will increase 100 fold near instanly, yes, instanlty.

Sorry believe it or not, thats how Cains strength works, if he wants to do something, he is going to do it, Hulk couldnt KO Stranger, Juggernaut did, Hulk could KO wolverine, Juggernaut DID, Hulk Couldnt KO Thing, Juggenaut did, Hulk couldnt handle sasquatch, Juggernaut was Throwing down with him, DEPOWERED

And someone Prove to me that Hulks Stength and Durability are unlimited, please, I wont to see that scan or that quote, IF I DONT SEE IT THEN HULKS RAGE DOES IN FACT HAVE A LIMIT, MEANING HIS STENGTH AND STAMINA ALSO HAVE A LIMIT.

True story.

Originally posted by Dalak

You want to compare Strength Feats and Hulk can top them every time.

How about you show him increasing his strength. Being shown as unable to do something at first and then capable of it.

Arguing that it's unlimited based on 2 powerups and a letter not even in an X-Book is shaky, especially if your excuse is "He gets just strong enough to do what he has to when he has to do it" without anything serious to back it up.

So let me get this Straight, feats are all that matter right, dont get me wrong, feats are very important, but look at it this way, ready, now pay attention this might go a little to fast for ya.

How many Stength feats does Doomsday have?

How many Strength feats does Abomination have?

How many Strength feasts does Drax have?

How many Strength feats does Thanos have?

How many Strength feats does Modt have?

How many Strength feast does Jahf have?

How many Strength fest does Tyrant have?

How many Strength feats does Asgradian Destroyer have?

How many Strength feats does Beta Ray Bill have?

How many Strength feast does Mangog have?

How many Strength feats does Hercules have?

How many Strength feats does Lobo have?

How many Strength feats does He-man have?

How man Strength feats does Captian Marvel have?

How many Strenght feats does Champion have?

How many Strength feats does Orion have?

How many Strength feats does Darkseid have?

How many Strength feats does Big G have?

How many Strength feats does Gladiator have?

How many Strength fest does Sentry have?

How many Strength feats does Hyprion have?

Oh and er, How many Strength feats does Juggernaut have?

Hmmm, I think you get it now. The ONLY person in ALL OF COMICS who has more strength feats then Hulk is Superman. Yet Hulk, hell and Superman (current) for that matter, would get b**** slap physically by 90% of the people on that list within the first few seconds of a fight. You know why? Because Marvel figured it out, Hulk fans have multiple orgams when they see hulk lift a mountain, or destroy an astreiod, hey, sell them damn comics, marvel knows deep down in their dark heart that Hulk is in fact, not the strongest one their is, as stated by the Editors around Marvel.

See what I mean, feats are important, but in the end, Hulk just isnt the Strongest one their is.

So your entire argument is based on *th Day, where he also said on panel that Something Else was making him stronger. 8th day hasn't proved anything.

Oh and Souja brought up tons of other feats when I asked for Class 100 fights only, so I felt I had to respond in kind. 😄 You can see the result. Hell, your posts were the result.

Oh and Juggernaut would fall to at least 75% of those listed too, one way or another. And Juggernaut would fall to Superman as well.

And despite all the waving of this article it's been shown before, and it might have been valid 12 years ago against the Professor, but it was only the General Opinion (Not Unanimous) then and that has no bearing on any other version of the Hulk. They went out of their way to show Juggernaut was better than the Professor and I've admitted he was but that doesn't mean he's stronger than all of them.

And I've shown you enough on panel proof in the past, not counting Lee or Hyperbole, to support Hulk's Strength and his Anger, and that's not counting the rest that others have posted and you are ignoring it all in favor of a few shreds of faulty proof.

😖leep: 😖leep: 😖leep: 😖leep: 😖leep: 😖leep: = Me

TTYL

Originally posted by lft4ded

The don't have to ignore it. We don't have a rate of increase for either character but it could be as simple as Hulk's strength increase @ n+3 while Juggernaut's increases @ n+4.

No limit just Juggernaut always staying a little ahead.

That makes no logical sense. The Hulk doesn't have a steady rate. It's directly tied to his anger. Anger can rise with varying speeds. It can slowly eat away at you, but it can also explode.

The lack of nuance in that article tells me that we shouldn't take that statement too seriously.

And where the hell does it say that his strength increased a 100 fold? It says swolen, which is CLEARLY a hyperbole.

And even if he could, Juggernaut didn't do it by himself. He had help.

And actually, Hulk killed Thing once. With a punch he didn't expect, but still....

Originally posted by Dinalfos
And where the hell does it say that his strength increased a 100 fold? It says swolen, which is CLEARLY a hyperbole.

And even if he could, Juggernaut didn't do it by himself. He had help.

How come every time something is stated on panel about the Juggernaut it's hyperbole, but when Spider Man says Hulk is the strongest you cling to it as if it's your penis?

What do you mean he had help? everytime the man moves it's from the help of Cyttorak. How the hell can an avatar not get help from it's master? thats where his power draw from all the time?

Originally posted by Soujaboy
How come every time something is stated on panel about the Juggernaut it's hyperbole, but when Spider Man says Hulk is the strongest you cling to it as if it's your penis?

What do you mean he had help? everytime the man moves it's from the help of Cyttorak. How the hell can an avatar not get help from it's master? thats where his power draw from all the time?

Debate normally. I'm not slinging childish insults the entire time, and neither should you. Act your age. And could you please stop distorting opinions?

I never said that Spiderman's individual wording meant anything, you just assume I do because you may have heard someone use it as an example. As I said, Spiderman's wording doesn't matter. It does matter, however, that several other people on panel(including the narrators!) say that it is.

Juggernaut was called by "something" and that something was making him more powerful. He said so himself. It had nothing to do with focus.

Originally posted by Dinalfos
Debate normally. I'm not slinging childish insults the entire time, and neither should you. Act your age. And could you please stop distorting opinions?

I never said that Spiderman's individual wording meant anything, you just assume I do because you may have heard someone use it as an example. As I said, Spiderman's wording doesn't matter. It does matter, however, that several other people on panel(including the narrators!) say that it is.

Juggernaut was called by "something" and that something was making him more powerful. He said so himself. It had nothing to do with focus.

Ya and the narrator once said that furry from Juggernauts fight was the greatest ever known to earth. I guess I should just accept that and rune with it as you do when the same thing is spoken of about Hulk.

If Juggernaut is constantly feeding of Cyttoraks power, explain to me how Cyttorak can then make him stronger? That doesn't make any sense, and is a flawed argument.

Originally posted by Soujaboy
Ya and the narrator once said that furry from Juggernauts fight was the greatest ever known to earth. I guess I should just accept that and rune with it as you do when the same thing is spoken of about Hulk.

If Juggernaut is constantly feeding of Cyttoraks power, explain to me how Cyttorak can then make him stronger? That doesn't make any sense, and is a flawed argument.

Cyttorak is feeding him to a certain extent. Why else do you think Juggernaut was powered up during the 8th day saga? Because he(Cyttorak) himself amped him. That suggest lower normal power levels. Also, how can Juggernaut be depowered at his hands if he's constantly feeding him? Because he's feeding him at a level he has deemed appropriate.

Originally posted by Dinalfos
That makes no logical sense. The Hulk doesn't have a steady rate. It's directly tied to his anger. Anger can rise with varying speeds. It can slowly eat away at you, but it can also explode.

The lack of nuance in that article tells me that we shouldn't take that statement too seriously.

It does if you read the question my answer was in response to. You asked how can someone be stronger than someone else who has unlimited strength. I told you how. By alway increasing your strength at a greater rate. I never stated what their rate of increase is. I said that I didn't know what it was. I gave a simple example of how to beings can have unlimited strength but one always being stronger than the other.

"quote: (post)
Originally posted by Dinalfos
Now that you mention it....there's another reason not to take that ed's note entirely serious. How can you be stronger than someone who also has unlimited strength? Is Marvel ignoring the abilities of their own characters?

The don't have to ignore it. We don't have a rate of increase for either character but it could be as simple as Hulk's strength increase @ n+3 while Juggernaut's increases @ n+4."

Originally posted by lft4ded
It does if you read the question my answer was in response to. You asked how can someone be stronger than someone else who has unlimited strength. I told you how. By alway increasing your strength at a greater rate. I never stated what their rate of increase is. I said that I didn't know what it was. I gave a simple example of how to beings can have unlimited strength but one always being stronger than the other.

The don't have to ignore it. We don't have a rate of increase for either character but it could be as simple as Hulk's strength increase @ n+3 while Juggernaut's increases @ n+4."

I know you don't know the rates, but I'm saying that not even Marvel(whatever that means) can decide who's stronger unless they want to ignore what they have been establishing for both characters. It's would've been theoretically possible that Juggernaut increases at +4 and Hulk at +3, were it not that Hulk isn't always going to be at +3. He doesn't really have rate to go buy, because it depends on the situation. And I don't think Juggernaut is always +4, either. It may be less, it may be more.

I'm not sure, but something tells me that they didn't take this into account. After all, they were expressing general current opinion, which may very well include everyone who doesn't have anything to do with the actual content of the comics.

Originally posted by Dinalfos
It's would've been theoretically possible that Juggernaut increases at +4 and Hulk at +3, were it not that Hulk isn't always going to be at +3. He doesn't really have rate to go buy, because it depends on the situation. And I don't think Juggernaut is always +4, either. It may be less, it may be more.

I agree. It could be 'm' and 'n+m+-3' in place of +3 and +4, respectively with m being Hulk's anger/strength factor. It was just in response to how 1 being with unlimited strength can be stronger than another being with unlimited strength.

This was so much easier when Juggernaut was merely invulnerable and we could argue that no matter how strong Hulk gets he could never harm him.

Originally posted by lft4ded
I agree. It could be 'm' and 'n+m+-3' in place of +3 and +4, respectively with m being Hulk's anger/strength factor. It was just in response to how 1 being with unlimited strength can be stronger than another being with unlimited strength.

This was so much easier when Juggernaut was merely invulnerable and we could argue that no matter how strong Hulk gets he could never harm him.

I understood that. I'm just saying that Marvel can't deduce that one is stronger than the other without ignoring their own basic principles. I would love to see the rationale behind all this, because we haven't seen more than just a vague statement.

Originally posted by Apolloknight
1. So cain wont increase his strength 100 fold right away, cool, i can live with that.

2. Hulk will be very angry right away so his strength and durability will rise dramatically. Alright thats cool i can li.........

Originally posted by Apolloknight
Wait a minute, You Sly dog, You tried to get one past me, meh, you almost had me, if I was just a little more incoherrent. For some reason (remember you guys like tend to think them on panel feats>>>Editors) even tho Thor said his strength increased 100 fold, what, in a matter of seconds, For some reason he wont be doing it here. HMMMMMM. How long would it take for Juggernaut to Muster up enought Strength to Jar/Daze Hulk, because thats all he needs, One stunning shot, after that, a flurry of class godly punches rain down on Hulk.

Originally posted by Apolloknight
This is fact, you cant deny this, I dont care what you say, YOU CAN NOT DENY THIS. Hulk will not have Unlimited Durability at the start of the fight, but Juggernauts Strength will increase 100 fold near instanly, yes, instanlty.

Originally posted by Apolloknight
Sorry believe it or not, thats how Cains strength works, if he wants to do something, he is going to do it, Hulk couldnt KO Stranger, Juggernaut did, Hulk could KO wolverine, Juggernaut DID, Hulk Couldnt KO Thing, Juggenaut did, Hulk couldnt handle sasquatch, Juggernaut was Throwing down with him, DEPOWERED

Thing also KOed Wolverine in one hit. Sometimes Wolverine will go down, sometimes he won't. Don't what you're talking about with Sasquatch. Hulk did just fine "throwing down" with him. Their only match didn't even have a conclusion.

[QUOTE=7058699]Originally posted by Apolloknight
And someone Prove to me that Hulks Stength and Durability are unlimited, please, I wont to see that scan or that quote, IF I DONT SEE IT THEN HULKS RAGE DOES IN FACT HAVE A LIMIT, MEANING HIS STENGTH AND STAMINA ALSO HAVE A LIMIT.

It's there. Get over it.

Originally posted by Apolloknight
So let me get this Straight, feats are all that matter right, dont get me wrong, feats are very important, but look at it this way, ready, now pay attention this might go a little to fast for ya.

How many Stength feats does Doomsday have?

How many Strength feats does Abomination have?

How many Strength feasts does Drax have?

How many Strength feats does Thanos have?

How many Strength feats does Modt have?

How many Strength feast does Jahf have?

How many Strength fest does Tyrant have?

How many Strength feats does Asgradian Destroyer have?

How many Strength feats does Beta Ray Bill have?

How many Strength feast does Mangog have?

How many Strength feats does Hercules have?

How many Strength feats does Lobo have?

How many Strength feats does He-man have?

How man Strength feats does Captian Marvel have?

How many Strenght feats does Champion have?

How many Strength feats does Orion have?

How many Strength feats does Darkseid have?

How many Strength feats does Big G have?

How many Strength feats does Gladiator have?

How many Strength fest does Sentry have?

How many Strength feats does Hyprion have?

Oh and er, How many Strength feats does Juggernaut have?

Battle feats are nice, but they're not enough.

Originally posted by Apolloknight
Hmmm, I think you get it now. The ONLY person in ALL OF COMICS who has more strength feats then Hulk is Superman. Yet Hulk, hell and Superman (current) for that matter, would get b**** slap physically by 90% of the people on that list within the first few seconds of a fight. You know why? Because Marvel figured it out, Hulk fans have multiple orgams when they see hulk lift a mountain, or destroy an astreiod, hey, sell them damn comics, marvel knows deep down in their dark heart that Hulk is in fact, not the strongest one their is, as stated by the Editors around Marvel.

See what I mean, feats are important, but in the end, Hulk just isnt the Strongest one their is.

Unlike some of the people on that list, at least at first, Hulk's and Juggernaut's strengths are comparable. However, Hulk actually has more than just bear-hugging Thor to prove he's stronger. 😉

Originally posted by Soujaboy
How come every time something is stated on panel about the Juggernaut it's hyperbole, but when Spider Man says Hulk is the strongest you cling to it as if it's your penis?

Originally posted by Soujaboy
What do you mean he had help? everytime the man moves it's from the help of Cyttorak. How the hell can an avatar not get help from it's master? thats where his power draw from all the time?