Babies are born innocent, but are very selfish. give me give me, and mine mine mine....I think their enviroment will shape them ie..things they are exposed to like parents, relationships and such.
If you took twins and put them into different environments they would be quite different people on who they react with the world.
According to Dictionary.com Good and Evil are defined as:
Evil - Morally bad or wrong; wicked
Good: Of moral excellence; upright, Goodness; virtue
If those be the definitions of good and evil when referring to humanity, then how can you define someone as being born good or evil? Babies are incapable of showing any of that, the only traits they show are due to the need for survival. As a child grows older you begin to see how their personality develops. Some children might develop psychopathic traits which means they essentially have no conscious. Our conscious allows us to distinguish between moral and unmoral actions feel empathy. With out one, killing someone would mean nothing as they don't feel sympathy or empathy. As far as I know psychopaths are born like that which would mean a child is born evil.
But you then have to wonder though if the conscious comes from nature or nurture. To an extent what we know to be morally wrong or right is through what we're taught and what has been passed down over the years, obviously with out too much question since the same ideas have been around for 1000's of years. But you have to wonder, why do some people choose to kill and others do not? I believe one of the main reasons is fear. If we're religious we fear the wrath of our god if we do something morally wrong. If we're not religious or terribly hardcore we fear the law, or we fear both. If you had a chance to kill someone you disliked a great deal, and you'd still go to heaven and/or you wouldn't go to jail or even get arrested would you do it? Think about it and see if you'd still choose not to. With out that overpowering fear some people might be apt to go through with it. While others still wouldn't, but does that make the person who did go through with it evil? By our definitions yes, yet while there is the fear of god and the law they would just go through their lives with out committing such acts and could be construed as good people. With that in mind it's hard to define someone as being born good or evil. It would be easier to say we're all born with the choice to do what we want. Because everyone, even psychopaths are capable of being good or evil.
I think in order to really know you'd have to figure out if certain things we do are because of Nature or Nurture. If we're born evil then nothing we encounter in life, no situation or way we were brought up would be a defining factor in what evil act we committed. Which means the morals we preach, "don't kill", "Respect your parents", "It's unmoral to cause another person pain against their will"..etc all that, we'd have to be born knowing that, they would have to be our natural instincts. Evil and good has to be the way of all life, not a man made definition.
Originally posted by Cipher
A person's choices and experiences make them who they are
and that can be positive or negative in someone else's view.
this is my response to that:
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Like I said in another thread, it isn't what you hear. It's how loudly you hear it. This concept explains why some people can hear music that talks about murdering others and not act out, and why others do. It's all about what was there to begin with and how that aspect of your personality interacts with what you encounter in the world around you.These people who want to blame Marilyn Manson for these kids going out and shooting up schools or murdering, are the same people that would never refuse to expose kids to the horrors of history...like the holocaust. I can assure you that Hitler is more responsible for influencing people to commit murder than Marilyn Manson ever will.
You can not protect people from the horrors of life. To keep them from knowing the world they live in is more dangerous and a greater diservice to that person than them experiencing reality and learning to deal with it.
Originally posted by debbiejo
Babies are born innocent, but are very selfish. give me give me, and mine mine mine....I think their enviroment will shape them ie..things they are exposed to like parents, relationships and such.If you took twins and put them into different environments they would be quite different people on who they react with the world.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Like I said in another thread, it isn't what you hear. It's how loudly you hear it. This concept explains why some people can hear music that talks about murdering others and not act out, and why others do. It's all about what was there to begin with and how that aspect of your personality interacts with what you encounter in the world around you.These people who want to blame Marilyn Manson for these kids going out and shooting up schools or murdering, are the same people that would never refuse to expose kids to the horrors of history...like the holocaust. I can assure you that Hitler is more responsible for influencing people to commit murder than Marilyn Manson ever will.
You can not protect people from the horrors of life. To keep them from knowing the world they live in is more dangerous and a greater diservice to that person than them experiencing reality and learning to deal with it.
I agree with most of the stuff you wrote. Our personality is somewhat biological and somewhat socialized. The example of the twins you used is a really good example. Another example is that people who kill or abuse other people, some claim that they were abused as children, sexually, physically and so on. I'm not going to argue that it's not true that abuse can drive people to do such acts in the future, but in saying that just because all that happened doesn't make you more apt to, murder or abuse. I have known people who have been through unspeakable things in their childhood and yet as adults they are learning to deal with it. You wonder how some people can make it through that and be ok and some cannot. But does the end result determine how they were born? I don't know the answer to that.
All that said, personality, speech, and thinking maybe biological, but do they drive us to act and react the way we do in certain situations? Those Twins, if put in a certain situation do you think they would react the exact same way?
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Psychologically we may not all be born essentially good. But in comparison to John Locke and Thomas Hobbes ideas on being born good or evil, they didn't take psychology into account. Probably because the study of psychology didn't exist in their times. Though I am not 100% sure on that so anyone can beg to differ. So if you're arguing based on their prospectives psychology probably shouldn't come into account. Locke believed that all humans were born good, and this was based on his very Christian views. Hobbes on the other hand believed that evilness was inside us all, and that with out society to guide us we'd slip. He didn't believe that nature would set us on the right path only that it would cause chaos and destruction.
If you were to go in favour of Hobbes you could argue that if all humans are born good then why does evil exist. Of course there is an answer in the bible as to why evil exists. But if there were no such thing as god, why would evil exist? Because we're all born evil, and the only reason why most of us are good is because we have a structured government that keeps us in order. And all the good we do is because the government and religion keep us in line. I mean there are always going to be some people who rebel and step out of line but that is what the government is for. This of course is a very european (British even) view on state and government.
Locke on the other hand believed that God created us all to be good. Though we become evil though our need to survive. It's our right to liberty, property, and health but though achieving these rights we may become clouded. That is why he believed government is effective, to regulate. Even though God created us good, free will and survival may cause some people to make poor judgements.
It's hard to agree with either point since there is no factual proof. With their ideas in mind I would have to say we're not born good or evil.
Re: Philosophy: People born good or evil?
Originally posted by hh?
John Locke said people were born good. Thomas Hobbes was against that idea and said that people were born evil. They were not always disagreeing. They both agree on the idea of a Social Contract. ill add more info later...maybe. 🙂
Evil: because ye first parents were Apsu & Tiamat, and Marduk slayed the ancient ones and locked them up and made of Kingu's blood humanity.
As Kingu's blood is in your veins, and as Kingu is seen as evil, it must be evil.
But gods are not good nor evil, they are beyond that...
Re: Re: Philosophy: People born good or evil?
Originally posted by Sicky666
Evil: because ye first parents were Apsu & Tiamat, and Marduk slayed the ancient ones and locked them up and made of Kingu's blood humanity.
As Kingu's blood is in your veins, and as Kingu is seen as evil, it must be evil.
But gods are not good nor evil, they are beyond that...
I don't know what this is from, but it has a lot of truth to it. Like I said earlier, it isn't beyond the realm of possibility that some of our personality traits are inherited through genetics. I mean, look at my dog. She is a beagle, one that has never been used to hurt...but she has always known how to fetch...she hunts smaller animals and she is forever bringing home dead animals that she finds out in the world. ( I know that's a strech, but it's something I've always marveled at)
Society and environment play a major role in the development of a child, and there is no sure fire way to determine the nature of a person. The ideal of good & evil is subjective because there is a mindset of what each words mean to an individual. For example is religion good or bad? Which religion? Wars have been fought over religion for thousands of years. Who believes in the "right" regligion? Is there one? The ability to determine the nature of good and bad is way of perspective. But there are many different meanings of good & bad. So dispelling an answer to what is good or bad is unattainable.
Originally posted by Reborn Again
Society and environment play a major role in the development of a child, and there is no sure fire way to determine the nature of a person. The ideal of good & evil is subjective because there is a mindset of what each words mean to an individual. For example is religion good or bad? Which religion? Wars have been fought over religion for thousands of years. Who believes in the "right" regligion? Is there one? The ability to determine the nature of good and bad is way of perspective. But there are many different meanings of good & bad. So dispelling an answer to what is good or bad is unattainable.
In a lot of ways, you are agreeing with me. You do realize that. Not much of what I am saying isn;t true in what you say. Maybe I just own different DVD'S. Cheers.
Re: Re: Philosophy: People born good or evil?
Originally posted by Sicky666
Evil: because ye first parents were Apsu & Tiamat, and Marduk slayed the ancient ones and locked them up and made of Kingu's blood humanity.
As Kingu's blood is in your veins, and as Kingu is seen as evil, it must be evil.
But gods are not good nor evil, they are beyond that...
Pay attention, some agree with you...at least in one fashion.
People are born like a blank slate. it's passed upon many people and written on..it's parents also have written on it. I believe people are not born evil...They do not have the tendiseis to do evil unless their selves were hurt. this is truly a subject where much history needs to be dealt with.
According to scripture, we are all born in sin.
I'm sure you can have tendencies passed down through your genes, like personality traits, diseases etc...BUT you don't have to act on those tendencies like I'm going to be an alcoholic because it runs in my family, or I'm going to be a criminal because it runs in my family. Though with genes and disease you can take extra steps to prevent some of those conditions. I think environment plays a bigger part in how a person turns out.
Originally posted by debbiejo
I'm sure you can have tendencies passed down through your genes, like personality traits, diseases etc...BUT you don't have to act on those tendencies like I'm going to be an alcoholic because it runs in my family, or I'm going to be a criminal because it runs in my family. Though with genes and disease you can take extra steps to prevent some of those conditions. I think environment plays a bigger part in how a person turns out.
Do you understand the difference between "genetic" and "hereditary"?