NEWSFLASH: World Trade Centre hit by 2 Aircraft

Ush is right KJ, if you look at a post I made yesterday I wrote about the reason Bin Laden started his crusade against the west most of all USA. They came with troops to Saudi Arabia, gulf war, and to the muslims this is holy LAND, they still have troops placed in Saudi Arabia and to many muslims this is an insult to their belifes. And of course there is Israel, somehow the muslims think they are the only one with the right to claim it as their holy land at least Jerusalem and Hebron. So it is about land and religion. Very simmilare to NI.

Did anyone realise there is still no evidence that Bin Laden was responsible? Media are just following the same lines.

Some indications point toward a wanted terrorist connected to hezbollah and another one in Egypt, part of Jihad. Both groups are terrorist organisations against Israel. Mind you, these guys are just as dangerous as Bin Laden.

Yes they are dangerous, but they lack economical resources to pull of an attack that struck the US last tuesday.

Don't be so sure about that. Many islamic countries support them. Perhaps even Bin Laden indirectly, it doesn't make Laden directly responsible though.

Just because we havent' heard the evidence doesn't mean that there is none. I don't think the goverment is going to share intelligence information with the general public at a time like this.

They who support them economically is responsible and are very much involved.

To be absolutely honest if America is serious about stamping out international terrorism and stopping such an atrocity from happening again then Al Qaeda MUST be crushed, whether they can directly link its leadert to these attacks or not.

I agree

I think the first step (apart from bombing them) would be to shut down their economical support i.e. capture Bin Ladens $300 Million dollars. Because shutting down one network, won't stop another one from starting especially when they've got the funds and motive.

Yeah freeze their assets must be a way, it is probably possible to trace transactions somehow.

Bin Laden does get the blame, he's is being demanded to be delivered by the Afghan government and how can you do that without proof? Maybe there is some, but no one has seen it.

Perhaps blaming Bin Laden is a huge smoke screen to avert the eyes of the investigation for the real perpetrators.

KJ, don't even TRY and say I am wrong on this one. It is one of my specialist areas

It IS land. It is land, it is land, it is land.

1. American Troops in Suadi Arabia. You might think "well it's about land then". NO IT'S NOT. These troops were in Saudi Arabia while America was helping bin Laden against the USSR. Bin Laden didn't bother about his "Holy Land" then. He also never put up any fight while he was still IN Saudi Arabia. He uses the holy land issue to get support from the Muslim community. And it's not working.

2. American support for Isreal. Bin Laden hates Jews. It's that simple. When in the 1990's he declared "holy war" it wasn't on Christians, it was on Jews, who he has said are "the true evil" in the world. He doesn't want land. He wants Jews dead. All of the anger from him towards America is because they support Isreal. NOT because they are in Saudi Arabia.

If you are talking about history then yes, maybe you could say it's about land and that's why he hates the Jews and the West. But it's NO longer about that. If this was all about land then why isn't there a war going on right now? Why aren't the Muslim countries involved? Why isn't the Muslim community up in arms about it?

It seems strange to me that EVERYONE, from Western leaders to Islamic leaders have said that Bin Laden is an extremists and is not following the Muslim faith. But you somehow think he has a reason for doing this? He doesn't. The man is EVIL. He has NO reasons other than to kill Americans and Jews. He has said before that he wants to "destroy America as we know it". There is no reasoning with him. If America pulled all of it's troops and support for Isreal, he would still be doing this.

This is what ISLAM says about terrorism - Islam, a religion of mercy, does not permit terrorism. In the Quran, God has said:

"God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)"

In other words, if they occupy your land and rubbish your religion, terrorism still isn't an option. bin Laden is supposed to be so devoted to the Islamic faith but that's wrong. He follows his own rules.

The Prophet Muhammad used to prohibit soldiers from killing women and children, and he would advise them "...Do not betray, do not be excessive, do not kill a newborn child."

Also, the Prophet Muhammad has forbidden punishment with fire.He once listed murder as the second of the major sins, and he even warned that on the Day of Judgment, {The first cases to be adjudicated between people on the Day of Judgment will be those of bloodshed.

Muslims are even encouraged to be kind to animals and are forbidden to hurt them. Once the Prophet Muhammad said "A woman was punished because she imprisoned a cat until it died. On account of this, she was doomed to Hell. While she imprisoned it, she did not give the cat food or drink, nor did she free it to eat the insects of the earth."

He also said that a man gave a very thirsty dog a drink, so God forgave his sins for this action. The Prophet was asked, “Messenger of God, are we rewarded for kindness towards animals?” He said "There is a reward for kindness to every living animal or human."

All of these quotes have come from various sites and books on Islam. And here is another - the act of inciting terror in the hearts of defenseless civilians, the wholesale destruction of buildings and properties, the bombing and maiming of innocent men, women, and children are all forbidden and detestable acts according to Islam and the Muslims. Muslims follow a religion of peace, mercy, and forgiveness, and the vast majority have nothing to do with the violent events some have associated with Muslims. If an individual Muslim were to commit an act of terrorism, this person would be guilty of violating the laws of Islam.

Now, is this CLEAR enough for YOU, oh specialist one?

The Islamic faith is one of the most peacfull religions on the planet. Bin Laden is not working for the Islamic faith and he's not interested in holy land. This man is pure evil. Don't even try to suggest that he has some sort of religious motivation.

Is this clear enough for you? Quite frankly your casual dismissal of my years of study in this area annoys me greatly.

Look at Tibet - In 1950 Tibet was invaded by the Armies of China, since then -

1.2 million Tibetans died as a direct result of Chinese occupation of Tibet.

Over Six Thousand Monasteries, Temples and Historical Strucures looted and destroyed.

Tibet's ecosystem has been severely damaged: vast tracts of forest have been denuded, wildlife species decimated.

Tibet's substantial mineral resources have been plundered.

One quarter of China's nuclear missiles are stationed in Tibet.

China is using Tibet as a dumping ground for nuclear waste.

Some three hundred thousand Chinese troups are based in Tibet.

7.5 million Chinese colonialists have been shifted into Tibet in a move to dominate the Tibetans.

A secret Chinese document in 1992 revealed plans to swamp the Tibetan population with even more Chinese.

Forced abortions, many in late pregnancy, and sterilisation of Tibetan women is common.

Some 4,000 Tibetan political prisoners are being held.

175,000 Tibetans are in exile (and increasing yearly with refugees still escaping Tibet after nearly 40 years of Chinese occupation of Tibet)

In 1959 the International Commission of Jurists found that Genocide had been committed in Tibet.

But despite all of this the Tibeten struggle has been non-violent for over 40 years. Despite World wide apathy and all of these terrible crimes they still continue to be peacfull. They have FAR more cause to kill than bin Laden but they don't. Mainly because of the Dalai Lama.
Bin Laden is a mass murderer and you can't use religion or land issues to justify that. That's what he tries to do.

Last week one of the leaders of an Islamic group in the U.K said "bin Laden is not a follower of the Islamic faith, to follow a religion and have a devotion to God you have to be human".

(A section here has been edited on request of KJ, he got a little personal towards Ush here, and he regrets it now. Unfortunately he couldn;t edit anymore himself, so he asked me to do it. Thanks KJ, very sporting of you. - queeq)

Who said John Miller is right, I also saw a program on bin Laden and they supported the land theory. He was put in house arrest in SA for openly criticizing the SA royal family for allowing US troops on holy land. He wanted them off Islamic land.
And I dont think Ush is trying, either to defend or justify bin Ladens actions.

And you ask if it is about land why isn`t there a war going on.
Well it is darn close to war in the middle east and second Israel`s military power is to much for the Arabs country to handle. The Arabs have gotten their ass kicked real good on three occasions and the Israelites are stronger and more numerous now than then.

Originally posted by finti
Yes they are dangerous, but they lack economical resources to pull of an attack that struck the US last tuesday.

I talked to a friend of mine, who works at an airport. he said that the terror-actions didn't have to have cost that much. he said that all they really needed was well-trained men and a really good timing.

The preperation prior to the attack cost a lot of money. They even send them to training schools be pilots only that is expensive.

Am I supposed to read all that, KJ? 😱 😱

Finti I never said John Miller was right but as the last man to interveiw him he probably knows more than most journalists.

Bin Laden is a very EVIL man with no clear reasons to commit terror despite what he says. If his religious and land reasons were justified then the Muslim world would be supporting him. But as I said,the Islamic faith is dead against his actions. Bin Laden is a walking contradiction and a mass murderer.

I really don't want to argue about this anymore. It's getting personal and boring. So I won't be replying unless someone else keeps it going.

KJ, how DARE you suggest that I am trying to justfiy Bin Laden's actions. All I said is that they think they have reason for what they do, as much as any other terrorist organisation. If you think they just murder for the heck of it, then you are way, WAY wrong.

I have never seen so much crap posted. Saying it is not about land is about the stupidest thing you can possibly say,. and Miller didn;t even say it wasn't aboput land.
Have you read ANY interviews about Bin Laden? Here is a direct quote from him:

"The international Islamic Front for Jihad against the US and Israel has, by the grace of God, issued a crystal clear fatwa calling on the Islamic nation to carry on Jihad aimed at liberating holy sites... if the instigation for jihad against the Jews and the Americans in order to liberate al-Aksa Mosque and the Holy Ka'ba [one of those is in Jerusalem, the other Saudi Arabia) is considered a crime, then let history be a witness that I am a criminal..."

He couldn;t make his missions statement more clear- war on the US and Israel until they GET THOSE SITES BACK.

Your quotes from Islam and Tibetan examples couldn't be more TOTALLY irrelevant. Why did you post them? What did you think that would achieve? What the hell do you think I am trying to do, say he is right? He THINKS he has a reason. So do his followers.

I could go on for a VERY long time about this, and I am fully prepared to do so.

However, at this point I am simply outraged by your conduct, KJ. I sent you that PM so we could resolve things peacefully between ourselves but you don;t seem to have the slightest interest in doing so, and you have rebuffed that. You mock the things I am good at (And I AM; you never seem hesitant to say you know about films, which I never questioned) and you dare to suggest that I am trying to in some way make out this man to be not evil.

This is a step too far. I am giving due notice now that I am not prepared to post in the same place as someone who makes such outrageous comments at me. That is all. Unless this is resolved soon, or KJ goes, I am out of here.

It's very dissapointing to see that this forum can't handle having a discussion without having someone stomping off because it become a personal thing. I would like to think that my fellow forum members would have more respect for eachother. I would think that with something like this we could keep out our egos out of it. This is not a pissing contest people.

Well, I have as much respect for you Dim as I had yesterday... 😂 😂 😂