Originally posted by JuggernautFan
good point, sure thor used his power, but it still showed juggernaut to have the upper hand in the "vortex" battle. cause juggernaut was still dropping thor and throwing him about with single punchs. thor landed many blows but juggernaut (depowered severely) refused to fall. so if thor cant even stop him in depowered form, whats he gonna do when he retains full power?? i suggest you read the newest, most updated battle between the 2 and find out what happens. juggernaut is the one that easily dispatchs thor.again i say read the comics damn it.
Again, I DID read the comics, I have the comics with their original battles. I don't read them anymore so I don't know what they have done to Juggernaut, but I do know they have *or had* given Thor some sort of Ultimate Madness power, and that he had replaced Odin as king of the Norse gods, so that magnifies his power immensely. In Thor #429, Thor refused to fall too. Ultimately in a physical battle neither one can stop the other, but since Thor is a god with godly powers and control over thunder, lightning, and the winds, Thor wins. It's not just about trading punches, because in that aspect, neither would win.
Originally posted by wrathofachilles
Again, I DID read the comics,
doesnt sound like it from the ahead statements......
Originally posted by wrathofachilles
I have the comics with their original battles. I don't read them anymore so I don't know what they have done to Juggernaut, but I do know they have *or had* given Thor some sort of Ultimate Madness power
warrior madness????
Originally posted by wrathofachilles
, and that he had replaced Odin as king of the Norse gods, so that magnifies his power immensely.
yes, king thor could do pretty much anything he wanted to juggernaut. cause odin would dispatch him rather easily.
Originally posted by wrathofachilles
In Thor #429, Thor refused to fall too.
wrong.......... i think you should open it up if you have it. thor was on his back and juggernaut was about to deal the finishing blow. had thor not moved he might have been knocked unconscious again. but several of thors blows couldnt knock juggernaut off his feat.
Originally posted by wrathofachilles
Ultimately in a physical battle neither one can stop the other,
juggernaut has more than sufficiently stopped thor in most of thier battles. except when he was depowered.
Originally posted by wrathofachilles
but since Thor is a god with godly powers and control over thunder, lightning, and the winds, Thor wins. It's not just about trading punches, because in that aspect, neither would win.
so his godblast...... and his lightning, and his thunder and his winds do nothing to juggernaut, so how does that make thor better??? thor has used every weapon in his arsenal and has yet to defeat juggernaut running at -normal- power levels. so this does boil down to trading punchs, and juggernaut is the bigger better man.
but if you wish to debate a juggernaut/thor fight, please create another thread.
Of course it does something to Juggernaut, it teleports him, it cuts off his power, it blows him away, etc. What do you mean 'at normal power levels?' I get the fact that you're a "JuggernautFan" ok, but you're making excuses. Normal power level doesn't mean anything when Thor is the one who reduced Juggernaut's power level in the first place. It's not like Juggernaut had a cold that day and so lost. Thor made him nearly powerless and beat him. Plain and simple. This isn't rocket science.
Yeah, warrior madness. Isn't Thor the king of the gods now? So that obviously must be factored into the question.
And it most certainly does sound like it from the above statements because the above statements reflect the three issues in which I've seen them fight. Thor won them (2 out of 3). Doesn't matter how as long as it was a fair fight. He's not Batman. He's Thor. Thor actually fights and he actually wins.
Originally posted by wrathofachilles
Of course it does something to Juggernaut, it teleports him, it cuts off his power, it blows him away, etc.
ok, it does teleport him, and thor can cut cain marko off from the power yes, but it does not blow him away nor does it hurt him......
Originally posted by wrathofachilles
What do you mean 'at normal power levels?'
exactly what i said. thor usually relies on teleportation to take care of juggernaut, because juggernaut has no means to combat this. but that doesnt make thor a physical match for juggernaut.
Originally posted by wrathofachilles
I get the fact that you're a "JuggernautFan"
did the name give that away???
Originally posted by wrathofachilles
ok, but you're making excuses.
just telling you how i interpret it. apparently you like thor better, and are interpreting it a different way. marvel often leaves a way for people to counter or support each side of the story. which is exactly what we are doing here. its called a debate.
Originally posted by wrathofachilles
Normal power level doesn't mean anything when Thor is the one who reduced Juggernaut's power level in the first place.
exactly, but the title juggernaut, goes to he who holds the power. not he who only holds a small portion of it. thor cannot beat juggernaut at normal power levels. he hasnt to date, and he wont. unless he is king thor.
Originally posted by wrathofachilles
It's not like Juggernaut had a cold that day and so lost.
well its almost like having a cold....... alot of his power was gone... thus making him more human, than the actual juggernaut.
Originally posted by wrathofachilles
Thor made him nearly powerless and beat him. Plain and simple. This isn't rocket science.
yes he did........ and he was no longer fighting a normal powered juggernaut. but an amped up human.
Originally posted by wrathofachilles
Yeah, warrior madness. Isn't Thor the king of the gods now? So that obviously must be factored into the question.
havnt been following thor for a while, nor anything really. like i said, king thor could dispatch juggernaut easily, but classic thor could not.
Originally posted by wrathofachilles
And it most certainly does sound like it from the above statements because the above statements reflect the three issues in which I've seen them fight. Thor won them (2 out of 3). Doesn't matter how as long as it was a fair fight.
which fights did he win??? far as i know he won half a fight when juggernaut was depowered. unless you are counting teleportation as a win..... the first half juggernaut was clearly not hurt nor phased by anything that thor did. in 411 and 412, its the same thing, nothing stopped juggernaut. but did something stop thor??? i think so. also think you need to check out vol. 2 # 17. see what happens 🙂
Yes I know the concept of a debate, I've done it for years, but you're stating it as fact, not as opinion. I've stated actual facts, not that 'Thor is better.' I like Thor better. But in the fights, Thor won. Those are the facts.
And I know what you mean, that's a rhetorical quesiton, I'm implying it doesn't make sense, because Juggernaut IS at normal power level. His power is reduced BY Thor in the process of fighting, therefore it's part of the actual fight to reduce Juggernaut's power level in order to win. My cold comment is a metaphor for Juggernaut not walking into the fight at full power. But he did. And he walked away without it. To say Thor couldn't beat normal powered Juggernaut isn't accurate, because again, Thor is the one reducing his power from normal powered Juggernaut, ergo ultimately he CAN defeat normal-powered Juggernaut.
As for what he won, I consider sending him to an asteroid a big W. What more could Thor have done besides kill him? He doesn't kill, unless he absolutely has to, therefore he won as handily as he could have without taking human life. And I never said he could STOP Juggernaut, but beating or defeating someone is not the same as 'stopping' them or 'overpowering' them. It's simply winning against them. There are many forms of combat. Hand-to-hand combat includes all the abilities at your disposal, so Thor using all of his powers is just as fair as Juggernaut using his gem.
Fact is if you want to get really techincal, Cain Marko's just some punk who found a mystical jewel, he has no real ability. Thor has his own powers that he was born with. But of course Cain Marko isn't the one in question. Jewelled Cain Marko/Juggernaut vs. Thor, Thor wins; who cares how as long as he gets to go for a mug of mead after the fight while Juggy is sitting in space wondering where his hat went. If it's a shoving contest, Juggernaut wins, if it's a fight, Thor wins.
Originally posted by wrathofachilles
Yes I know the concept of a debate, I've done it for years, but you're stating it as fact, not as opinion. I've stated actual facts, not that 'Thor is better.' I like Thor better. But in the fights, Thor won. Those are the facts.
no its not a "fact" that thor has won........ he only won by teleportation. if you consider that combat then....... i dunno what to say about that. thats like saying i beat up thor because i run faster than he does. i teleported my ass outta there so he didnt win. wrong. i guess if you want to count teleportation as a win, then that is the -only- way thor can win.
Originally posted by wrathofachilles
And I know what you mean, that's a rhetorical quesiton, I'm implying it doesn't make sense, because Juggernaut IS at normal power level. His power is reduced BY Thor in the process of fighting, therefore it's part of the actual fight to reduce Juggernaut's power level in order to win.
but thats what i've been relating to you. even in a depowered state Juggernaut dropped thor with a single punch. multiple punchs of thors couldnt take juggernaut off his feat. is that a win for thor?? hmmm, seems to me we are chalking them up for juggernaut.
Originally posted by wrathofachilles
My cold comment is a metaphor for Juggernaut not walking into the fight at full power. But he did. And he walked away without it. To say Thor couldn't beat normal powered Juggernaut isn't accurate, because again, Thor is the one reducing his power from normal powered Juggernaut, ergo ultimately he CAN defeat normal-powered Juggernaut.
no, he still proved incapable of stopping juggernaut, it was a 60 second bout in which thor learned that juggernaut isnt just a bully, and he refused to fall. thor cannot hurt/harm juggernaut in any form, as it was taken care of to say in thier latest battle.
Originally posted by wrathofachilles
As for what he won, I consider sending him to an asteroid a big W.
i think thor knows this is the only way to take care of juggernaut...... could we just refer to it as being scared from now on??
Originally posted by wrathofachilles
What more could Thor have done besides kill him? He doesn't kill, unless he absolutely has to, therefore he won as handily as he could have without taking human life.
well heres where i think you are wrong. in fight number 2 (after he just woke up from being knocked unconsciouss by the way) he used his most powerful/devastating weapon in his arsenal, which did...... diddly squat. thor new well what he was doing, and he is a worry and he will take a life of a "human" if he has to. also in thier latest fight, he needed to be at odins side, but still failed to stop/hurt or barely give juggernaut notice. he tried his damndest to stop juggernaut, but he failed. both are circumstances where i'm sure thor would be willing to kill if went that far. but he -couldnt- do it as long as juggernaut is connected to the magics.
Originally posted by wrathofachilles
And I never said he could STOP Juggernaut, but beating or defeating someone is not the same as 'stopping' them or 'overpowering' them. It's simply winning against them. There are many forms of combat. Hand-to-hand combat includes all the abilities at your disposal, so Thor using all of his powers is just as fair as Juggernaut using his gem.
juggernaut doesnt use the gem....... he did one time to gain access to the power, but since then has not had it. until the damn onslaught saga.
Originally posted by wrathofachilles
Fact is if you want to get really techincal, Cain Marko's just some punk who found a mystical jewel, he has no real ability. Thor has his own powers that he was born with. But of course Cain Marko isn't the one in question. Jewelled Cain Marko/Juggernaut vs. Thor, Thor wins; who cares how as long as he gets to go for a mug of mead after the fight while Juggy is sitting in space wondering where his hat went. If it's a shoving contest, Juggernaut wins, if it's a fight, Thor wins.
they have fought multiple times and thor always relies on teleportation to win. 1 time he got lucky (which is a writer mistake by the way, because they made it seem as if his forcefield was the source of his invulnerability, but the next issue is where that is taken care of as juggernaut does not use it at all, and lets thor pound directly against his body). so i think you have something twisted around backwards. in a shoving match juggernaut wins. in a physical brawl juggernaut -has- won. thor has won........... once.........
Scared? Gods don't get scared. It's called adapting to your environment. The whole 'Juggernaut can't be stopped ergo can't be beaten' argument doesn't work. You don't have to stop someone to beat him. Just because Juggernaut knocked Thor down with a single punch doesn't mean anything. Thor got up. Why? Because he's Thor. He's not Spider-Man, he's not Batman. He's not even Hulk. Thor has far more than just strength and durability. Yes his powers can't 'STOP' Juggernaut, but his powers can 'DEFEAT' Juggernaut.
Teleportating him away is a victory because it's something Thor has the capability to do in a fight where Juggernaut doesn't. If Thor had to use someone else's power of teleportation, that's different. But he didn't, he did it himself. Besides, Thor didn't just teleport him away, he tricked him, reduced his power, trapped him, and sent him flying through space. That's as much of a win as beating someone up. A fight isn't about who can throw the hardest punch, it's about who achieves his purpose. Juggernaut's purpose was *I can't remember the actual purpose* but presumably to beat Thor up or kill him or whatever. Thor's purpose was to send Juggernaut as far away as possible so he couldn't cause any further trouble. Which one achieved their goal? Thor. Thor wins.
As for using the gem, the fact that he has his mystical power is him using the gem. If not for Cytorak, he wouldn't be what he is. That's a moot point anyway as power is power. But the fact remains the same.
Originally posted by JuggernautFan
it still showed juggernaut to have the upper hand in the "vortex" battle. cause juggernaut was still dropping thor and throwing him about with single punchs. thor landed many blows but juggernaut (depowered severely) refused to fall.again i say read the comics damn it.
Yeah, Evangel's right. I just re-read the issue *429* and Thor was whipping Juggernaut's rear-end throughout the entire fight once he shattered his helmet. Why did you say he refused to fall when he fell several times. He even saw stars *literally.* Thor won that fight hands-down.
well
this went from Juggurnaut vs Doomsday to Juggurnaut vs Thor! lol=/...
anyways lets see, Juggurnaut cant hurt doomsday, and "doomsday cant hurt juggurnaut".. Doomsday IS stronger than Juggurnaut. but if you cant hurt something it doesnt matter right? ( i bet he can but im not gunna touch that!).. soooo this is pointless, if you factor it by how much damage each one takes and gives... Doomsday wins, otherwise, there is no winner since neither can kill each other, right? dont under estimate doomsday, this is the ONLY being(sp) Superman is SCARED of. Anyways, for now : DRAW!. ( until they actually have them meet in a crossover! =D)
Originally posted by wrathofachilles
Scared? Gods don't get scared.
this is why you should shut up now. thor questioned his courage, and weather he was losing his own life in the latest battle with juggernaut. so yes Gods DO get scared. hmmm, shall i say it again???? read the damn issue.
Originally posted by wrathofachilles
It's called adapting to your environment. The whole 'Juggernaut can't be stopped ergo can't be beaten'
nobody said he couldnt be beaten.
Originally posted by wrathofachilles
argument doesn't work. You don't have to stop someone to beat him. Just because Juggernaut knocked Thor down with a single punch doesn't mean anything. Thor got up. Why? Because he's Thor.
and juggernaut didnt go down -at all-. he had the upper hand. why?? because hes juggernaut
Originally posted by wrathofachilles
He's not Spider-Man, he's not Batman. He's not even Hulk. Thor has far more than just strength and durability. Yes his powers can't 'STOP' Juggernaut, but his powers can 'DEFEAT' Juggernaut.
but they have yet to defeat the power of the juggernaut. he did once, and even then it was just a 60 second bout. had thor gone 60 seconds and lost his power, what would have happened??
Originally posted by wrathofachilles
Teleportating him away is a victory because it's something Thor has the capability to do in a fight where Juggernaut doesn't.
a win........... kinda. but it still doesnt mean thor is a physical match for juggernaut. he just isnt.
Originally posted by wrathofachilles
If Thor had to use someone else's power of teleportation, that's different. But he didn't, he did it himself.
see above
Originally posted by wrathofachilles
Besides, Thor didn't just teleport him away, he tricked him, reduced his power, trapped him, and sent him flying through space. That's as much of a win as beating someone up.
yes, but juggernaut has taken everthing from thor, and still kept comming. he has also trashed thor twice, and also every one of thors team mates shots in the entire issues.
Originally posted by wrathofachilles
A fight isn't about who can throw the hardest punch, it's about who achieves his purpose.
and juggernaut achieved his purpose, he knocked thor out. and trashed him in the latest fight. i really think you should pick it up.
Originally posted by wrathofachilles
Juggernaut's purpose was *I can't remember the actual purpose* but presumably to beat Thor up or kill him or whatever. Thor's purpose was to send Juggernaut as far away as possible so he couldn't cause any further trouble. Which one achieved their goal? Thor. Thor wins.
but he got knocked out for his troubles also 🙂 i guess if you are going to count teleportation as a win, then thor has "won" against juggernaut as that is what he relies on to "defeat" juggernaut. he cannot do it any other way. but juggernaut has the means to beat thor to a pulp.
Originally posted by wrathofachilles
As for using the gem, the fact that he has his mystical power is him using the gem. If not for Cytorak, he wouldn't be what he is. That's a moot point anyway as power is power. But the fact remains the same.
cyttorak doesnt have to use the gem to give the power to someone though. it was used once. just like thor used the negation trick once.
Well, you can say Juggernaut wouldn't have been what he was without the gem, then someone can say Thor wouldn't be what he was without his hammer. And, most of what JugFan is stating IS fact, and not just opinion. Sure, he can teleport Juggernaut somewhere, but if he doesn't then what? Juggernaut has taken everything Thor's given to him, and gave back a lot more. And even when most of Juggernaut's power was temporarily cut off, Thor may have been winning, but Juggernaut was still pretty much a match for Thor. You can say Thor win's cause he's a GOD and all, a god that's already been put down by Juggernaut twice. That's also like saying cause he's BATMAN, cause he's DOOM, cause he's SUPERMAN, etc. etc. Yeah, he's a god, but that doesn't make him unbeatable, and neither is Juggernaut just ot put it out there. You can teleport Juggeranut away, okay, that's a win, no one's denying it. But other than that, Thor's not beating Juggernaut by any other means.
Now, if we're talking about current versions, then it's a no contest, Thor takes it with ease, even without the Odinforce.
Anyways, I think we've been off topic long enough.😉
No, Thor's a god, the hammer just allows a normal person *Don Blake* to turn into Thor. Thor was a god long before he was given Mjolnir by Odin.
Again JFan, I HAVE read the comics. Let me rephrase my comment, Classic Thor doesn't get scared. I haven't read comics in the past two years, so I don't know what happened in the last fight, but in his first three fights with Juggernaut, he didn't get scared. He got nauseated. Big difference. I don't recall what the reason for that was *didn't read continuously* but in 411 Thor lost because he was dizzy and because he got knocked out by his OWN hammer. Remember, Juggernaut hitched a ride on it and slammed into Thor. In 429, Juggernaut fell twice, so how do you say he didn't fall and kept coming. Yeah he kept coming, all enemies keep coming after they fall, otherwise that would make for a boring story. Thor, however, did not just 'teleport' him away in that issue, he beat him like a Frenchman in Berlin and THEN sent him to space. Thor won 429 hands down. I can't debate the newest fight since I haven't read it, but if he has Odinpower, how could he possibly be scared or lose?
Yeah, Thor's a god, I never denied that, but the Hammer doesn't just turn him from human into Thor. It's what amps him up to class 100, and gives him power over storms, flight, teleportation, and most of the other things he does with it. Without it he'd be around class 30 or a little higher.
And yeah, Thor was getting the best of Juggernaut when cut from his power, he was still taking whatever Thor gave him though.
Again, off topic though. Why not just make a Thor/Juggernaut thread and deal with it there? If not then just stick with the topic on this thread.