The Beatles

Originally posted by BobbyD
I don't know about that, AC. ...would be very difficult to prove they're not otherwise.

Nobody here has ever been able to prove them as the most influential musical band by music alone. Nobody.

Not you, not Bakerboy, not Whirlysplat, not Who-Kid. Why? Because it can't be done. The Beatles did a couple of things first, big deal. That's innovation, not influence, and even then it's questionable innovation.

Originally posted by BobbyD
If you raise the point about them technically not being the best ever, you will not get a debate from me (if that's what you meant above). But, know this: they were technically ahead, and more revolutionary than anyone else in their time, which had a great and immeasurable impact on the technicality of music that followed afterwards.

They're not the most influential band ever, musically, though. Whether they have massive musical influence, as much as you say, or not, they're not the most influential band ever when it comes to music.

Nobody has given substantial proof for it. All they say is what Who-Kid said, irrelevent bs about fans, status, success and hype.

Originally posted by BobbyD
I would dare to say that if you asked the random passer-by on the street this question or any random artist to give an answer as to who was the most influential pop/rock band of all time, I'm guessing it would result in the Beatles being named more than anyone.

Yeah, because as I said, they're a popular answer. It doesn't mean they're the right one. They're popular and famous, big deal, doesn't make them the most influential musical act ever, for reasons involving music.

The average random passer-by probably won't know enough to judge.

Originally posted by BobbyD
You make great points. In fact, I am willing to say that you know infinitely more about music than I, but I really do think the Beatles are the most influential band ever. 😬

I'm aware you do, but they're not.

Rush, Killing Joke, The Cure, Mike Patton and Led Zeppelin have done more for music in a positive way than The Beatles, just not on as grand a scale or with the same level of fame. Why? Because you have to be into music to a certain degree to like those bands and artists extensively, save for Zeppelin (who are also namechecked often, to be fair). The Beatles were just a pop band who made great music, but anybody could like them, so anybody thought they were the best. The same happens with Queen, really.

You had critics raving, fans thinking they're smart because they like the same bands as critics.

They get rated more on fame and popularity than they do on their music.

I listen to The White Album or Revolver and nothing there sounds any more influential than Pet Sounds or some of the more famous/heralded Stones material. They get rated for their hype, like U2.

Originally posted by BobbyD
I'd understand if one were to say the Rolling Stones also. And, I'd even give close runner up awards to several others.

The Beatles will always win polls because they are called The Beatles. It's never going to matter how good they actually were (or weren't) at making music vis-a-vis other, better musical acts.

Originally posted by BobbyD
No one would ever dare challenge the songwriting duo of Lennon-McCartney. Many bands have none, and the Beatles were blessed with 2 of the greatest. There are many as good; but few, if any who are considered better.

Says who? Many people?

So what? What does that mean? Nothing. Loads of opinions are still opinion. It's an easy opinion to go along with and it's one that many people, stupidly, are scared to challenge. I've challenged it before, and the only replies I get are: "Nah, they were the best duo. You can't say they weren't, they were.".

No substantial, convincing proof besides "I and many others believe they are the best.".

There's no fact in preference, and The Beatles, sorry to inform you, are not exempt from these rules.

My Dad was around listening to them when they were releasing albums, his father saw them live. Their opinion is that they were really good, that's it. Shocking, I know.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Rush, Killing Joke, The Cure, Mike Patton and Led Zeppelin have done more for music in a positive way than The Beatles, just not on as grand a scale or with the same level of fame.

Killing Joke and The Cure are slightly stretching credibility. Let's be realistic here.

Originally posted by BobbyD
Your #2 statement would never hold any water in the history of the music industry, my opinion notwithstanding. No one would ever dare challenge the songwriting duo of Lennon-McCartney. Many bands have none, and the Beatles were blessed with 2 of the greatest. There are many as good; but few, if any who are considered better. I'll give you #1, especially after they were broken up. #3 is...is...whatever. Your personal disdain for the Beatles shows, and as evident, you are too close to the situation; I'm taking your badge. 😉

actually anyone with any knowledge beyond what is stuffed down their throat by those with corporate interests rather than artistic interest know that there are far better songwriters than lennon and mccartney

especially mccartney...because if he is such a brilliant songwriter then how is it that nothing that he has released in the past 2 decades has been given any sort of huge recognition as brilliant song writing

my personal disdain for the beatles is simply borne of the fact that i know there are far better musicians and songwriters in the world

i've already listed those from comparable genres...without even having the need to delve into different styles

besides...the fact the remains that to call any band the "best in the world" is to over rate

being the most popular isn't a pretext for being the best...if it were then currently the "best in the world" according to sales is mariah carey

is she the best?...no...obviously not

Originally posted by jaden101

is she the best?...no...obviously not

Although in a sense, that formulation has got the most empirical backing.

Originally posted by jaden101
especially mccartney...because if he is such a brilliant songwriter then how is it that nothing that he has released in the past 2 decades has been given any sort of huge recognition as brilliant song writing

Precisely.

Reminds me of a quote: "What's worse? This long without Lennon, or this long with McCartney.".

-AC

See, this is why I said I didn't understand what is meant by 'most influential'.

What do we mean by that? Influential where? And influential in what sphere?

See, when you talk of The Beatles being influential, what you would normally refer to is culture, more precisely Western culture, with a bit of buzz beyond the Iron Curtain. Their cultural impact on the 60s is one of the biggest phenomenon of all time, which is one of the reasons why they came to embody it. But there, it eas as much to do with attitude, dress and, for that matter, haircuts, and the way they caught a popular mindset and rode that wave rather well. They were turning out pretty mainstream music at that point; most the innovation came when they were big enough to have leeway too.

I'm a big Beatles fan, but I dunno how to judge their influence on a purely musical level. That's a very different area.

But there is a certain feeling tha The Beatles changed the face of music; that's where the arguments comes from.

Yeah, I agree with Ush, also how do you judge the influence of people influenced by the Beatles..it's all just very not measurableöe. You need some sort of really complicated system and each one of those Systems would get different results.

Originally posted by jaden101
actually anyone with any knowledge beyond what is stuffed down their throat by those with corporate interests rather than artistic interest know that there are far better songwriters than lennon and mccartney

especially mccartney...because if he is such a brilliant songwriter then how is it that nothing that he has released in the past 2 decades has been given any sort of huge recognition as brilliant song writing

my personal disdain for the beatles is simply borne of the fact that i know there are far better musicians and songwriters in the world

i've already listed those from comparable genres...without even having the need to delve into different styles

besides...the fact the remains that to call any band the "best in the world" is to over rate

being the most popular isn't a pretext for being the best...if it were then currently the "best in the world" according to sales is mariah carey

is she the best?...no...obviously not

Silence! For I am the great and powerful Oz! 🙂

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Nobody here has ever been able to prove them as the most influential musical band by music alone. Nobody.

Not you, not Bakerboy, not Whirlysplat, not Who-Kid. Why? Because it can't be done. The Beatles did a couple of things first, big deal. That's innovation, not influence, and even then it's questionable innovation.
-AC

I know what you mean, and I know what you say. But, then how does one disprove the claim that the Beatles were not the most influential ever?

That may be actually harder to do than saying they are, no?

Originally posted by BobbyD
Silence! For I am the great and powerful Oz! 🙂

😆

i see you hiding behind that curtain

Originally posted by BobbyD
I know what you mean, and I know what you say. But, then how does one disprove the claim that the Beatles were not the most influential ever?

That may be actually harder to do than saying they are, no?

Well, while you are at it disprove that Bob Dylan was the most influental, what about the doors..what about Britney Spears..all kinda hard to disprove without being sure how to measure influence in the first place.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, while you are at it disprove that Bob Dylan was the most influental, what about the doors..what about Britney Spears..all kinda hard to disprove without being sure how to measure influence in the first place.

theres an easy way to prove someone had more influence than the beatles

the beatles influence, for argument sake...a million bands

then a band who influenced the beatles influenced at least 1,000,001 bands...and are thus more influential than the beatles

case closed

Originally posted by jaden101
theres an easy way to prove someone had more influence than the beatles

the beatles influence, for argument sake...a million bands

then a band who influenced the beatles influenced at least 1,000,001 bands...and are thus more influential than the beatles

case closed

Okay, so it is who influences another band. Does it matter to what extend or is it 1 point per band influenced? How do you make sure the bands were actually influenced by them?

What if one band basically adopted the style of Bob Dylan and play his songs and influenced a lot of other bands

And there is a band that influenced no other band and like one song by the beatles.

do both count the same? It's jsut not as easy as you make it out to be.

And even that, jaden, presupposes we mean influential as in 'influential on bands'.

I am sure The Beatles had a great influence on many bands. But when people say that the Beatles are the most influential group ever, then once more that is normally a cultural comment.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
And even that, jaden, presupposes we mean influential as in 'influential on bands'.

I am sure The Beatles had a great influence on many bands. But when people say that the Beatles are the most infleutnail group ever, then once more that is normally a cultural comment.

Culturally that might actually hold some water too. When it's musical influence that's where it becomes blurry.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

We get it, they're famous. One of the most famous bands ever, one of the most popular bands ever, but this doesn't equate to them being the most influential.

So? They made some classic albums. I'm waiting for proof that they are without doubt the most influential band ever. The most namechecked for faux credibility, yes.

Justin Timberlake has popularity, platinum records, a mania of his own, many number one hits.

So? They made some classic albums. I'm waiting for proof that they are without doubt the most influential band ever.

But hey, no problem : if you disagree, fine, just tell me who you think is the most influential band ?

(This should be fun)

Fact: Many people have, do and will continue to namecheck The Beatles because they are The Beatles and hardly anyone dare criticise it.

Claiming The Beatles as the best anything is simply a cop out for people who know no better.

Here are some people / bands with strong influences (more or less) by the Beatles - their words, not mine. Do me a favour and argue about most of them

- David Bowie
- The Beach Boys (and vice versa)
- Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young
- Stevie Wonder
- the Rolling Stones
- Joni Mitchell
- the Band
- the Who
- Tom Petty
- Bob Dylan
- the Byrds
- Electric Light Orchestra
- the Kinks
- Yes
- Nirvana
- Simon & Garfunkel
- King Crimson
- Elton John
- Black Sabbath
- Queen
- Frank Zappa
- Cream
- Oasis
- Porcupine Tree
- the Residents
- the Pixies
- Jerry Garcia

Do you want a hundred names extra ?

And to end, a quote from Alice Cooper : I was sixteen when the Beatles came out. If anyone tells you they weren’t influenced by the Beatles, they are lying to you. The Beatles influenced everyone.

I don't see the Musical influence of the Beatles on half of those bands...

"Do You Want To Hear a Secret" and "Michelle" have always been my favorite Beatles songs.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I don't see the Musical influence of the Beatles on half of those bands...

Do you think Black Sabbath would have existed without the Beatles ? Nope. Ozzy wanted to be one thing (after he had listened to the Beatles) : to be a musician and to be a Beatle ! Same for Frank Black.

Kurt Cobain almost always listened to the White Album when writing music. The heroes of Queen were the Beatles. Frank Zappa dedicated a whole album to the Beatles...

Do I have to continue ?

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
"Do You Want To Hear a Secret" and "Michelle" have always been my favorite Beatles songs.

Other great songs : Happiness is a warm gun and A day in the life.