Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Originally posted by MF DELPH
Yeah, Angel was the more consistent of the two series. To me Wesley's story and character arc was probably the best thing in the whole Buffyverse given his origins as comic relief on Buffy and his arc being integral to what made Angel so good. He went from Jar Jar Giles to John Constantine Lite. When he died in the series finale of Angel I legit was pissed. His death hit me way harder than Tara's (though I really liked Tara and that sh*t was tragic given the fresh reconciliation between her and Willow) or Buffy's Mom. Wesley went from someone you legit despised and wondered why his character was even introduced to being one of the premiere heroes of either show. I think it also helped that Angel had primary villains in the Wolfram and Hart Firm and the Senior Partners throughout the series. It helped considerably with storytelling.

👆

Angel was the show where Whedon finally hit the right track, and it was just a better show than Buffy in general.

Shame it ended the way it did, though.

The show ended partially due to Joss Whedon though. The way things had always gone is that they'd find out if the show was being renewed only after most of the latest season had aired. For the 5th season Joss demanded an answer at the very beginning of the season so they said no.

Originally posted by Mindset
Angel's highs, mids, and lows were better than Buffy's.

I take it you never saw the Angel episodes featuring stuff like the dude who could detach and control his body parts or the thing that killed people via banging them. Or the episode where Cordy gets pregnant(the first time).

Originally posted by Surtur
The show ended partially due to Joss Whedon though. The way things had always gone is that they'd find out if the show was being renewed only after most of the latest season had aired. For the 5th season Joss demanded an answer at the very beginning of the season so they said no.

I take it you never saw the Angel episodes featuring stuff like the dude who could detach and control his body parts or the thing that killed people via banging them. Or the episode where Cordy gets pregnant(the first time).

True @ Whedon. It was sad how it turned out.

I'd argue Angel's highs beat Buffy's, still.

For me an episode like "The Zeppo" on Buffy is superior to most episodes of Angel. Also while Angel does some silly things in it, the episode where he kills Miss Calendar is still pretty well done in terms of emotion.

Buffy tends to also feature much better moments with music IMO. Though I actually have a heavy dislike of the musical episode.

Originally posted by Surtur
The show ended partially due to Joss Whedon though. The way things had always gone is that they'd find out if the show was being renewed only after most of the latest season had aired. For the 5th season Joss demanded an answer at the very beginning of the season so they said no.

I take it you never saw the Angel episodes featuring stuff like the dude who could detach and control his body parts or the thing that killed people via banging them. Or the episode where Cordy gets pregnant(the first time).

Those were better than the episode where Willow fell in love with a robot, or when the swim team were turning into sea monsters, or when Buffy's mom falls in love with a robot, the ep where Xander's praying mantis teacher wants to bang/eat him...I could go on.

I'd say at least 60% of S1 Buffy is pretty bad if you go back and watch it now.

Angel was the better show.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
Yeah, Angel was the more consistent of the two series. To me Wesley's story and character arc was probably the best thing in the whole Buffyverse given his origins as comic relief on Buffy and his arc being integral to what made Angel so good. He went from Jar Jar Giles to John Constantine Lite. When he died in the series finale of Angel I legit was pissed. His death hit me way harder than Tara's (though I really liked Tara and that sh*t was tragic given the fresh reconciliation between her and Willow) or Buffy's Mom. Wesley went from someone you legit despised and wondered why his character was even introduced to being one of the premiere heroes of either show. I think it also helped that Angel had primary villains in the Wolfram and Hart Firm and the Senior Partners throughout the series. It helped considerably with storytelling.

Angel had better character development and more interesting stories.

Originally posted by Mindset
Those were better than the episode where Willow fell in love with a robot, or when the swim team were turning into sea monsters, or when Buffy's mom falls in love with a robot, the ep where Xander's praying mantis teacher wants to bang/eat him...I could go on.

I never said Buffy didn't have bad episodes, but you said even the low Angel stuff is better. The problem is you then proceeded to list Buffy episodes that weren't really worse then the episodes in question. Since I could go on with Angel as well.

I'd say at least 60% of S1 Buffy is pretty bad if you go back and watch it now.

Sure, but by that point Buffy had been on the air for several years. The franchise did get off to a slow start and Angel happened to come around when at was peaking. Also the first season of Buffy had only 12 episodes. Angel's first season had 22, giving them much more opportunities to flesh out plots and characters.

Originally posted by Surtur
I never said Buffy didn't have bad episodes, but you said even the low Angel stuff is better. The problem is you then proceeded to list Buffy episodes that weren't really worse then the episodes in question. Since I could go on with Angel as well.

Sure, but by that point Buffy had been on the air for several years. The franchise did get off to a slow start and Angel happened to come around when at was peaking. Also the first season of Buffy had only 12 episodes. Angel's first season had 22, giving them much more opportunities to flesh out plots and characters.

S1 and S2 of Buffy was basically 1 season, but not sure why it matters, most shows including Angel have rocky first seasons, but Buffy consistently had them, like all of S4 and 5. Once Angel found its stride it never lost it.

But they weren't really worse. Willow loving a demon in a computer isn't any sillier then the detachable limb guy. Oh if you just read the descriptions then I guess maybe, but actually SEEING the limb episode it basically puts any season 1 Buffy episode to shame..and yes that is the very same season that includes a demon hunter whose soul is inside a ventriloquist dummy.

Also yeah most shows have rocky first seasons that was my point. When Angel came around the show had been established for years and they had a nice backdrop of characters and mythology to draw upon. The first season of Buffy was only 12 episodes and all they had to go on was the movie.

Also for you to say once Angel found it's stride it never lost it would require us to ignore season 5 episodes like the puppet episode. Or how about the royal f*ck up that was the way they handled Cordy's character by the end? That is never losing a stride to you?

At least I will admit certain terrible things about Buffy whereas you don't seem to want to see the faults in Angel.

Buffy was my first major TV love {other than Boy Meets World} and I was a huge fan. It still holds up well.

That said, Angel is my favorite TV show of all time and I've watched a lot of TV. I think Angel's stronger all around: stronger characters, better development, more interesting stories and arcs, more engaging themes, and villains that are as good if not better.

Definitely not without flaws, but excellent nonetheless.

For me the villains on Angel were a double edged sword. On one hand I enjoyed having a steady villain in Wolfram & Hart. On the other hand the problem is that can also get old if every episode in every season has them behind the evil shenanigans. Obviously they weren't behind every evil, but most of them.

Basically every season except the 4th season was them as the main bad guy. Oh sure you had Holtz in season 3, but he was like a dual villain alongside the firm. I also have to say I despised season 2. The main villains ended up being..some Wolfram & Hart people from another dimension. I likewise just hated Pylea.

Still a lot of episodes in the show I did love. I think "Why We Fight" from the final season is one of the best episodes of the series. It's the one where you see flashbacks with Angel during WW2. Also from the final season "The Girl In Question" when Angel and Spike go to Italy together..that is some good stuff.

I still despise the way they handled Cordy towards the end though. Also never really liked the character of Connor he just has a really punchable face.

W&H was a great villain, as far as I'm concerned. I love the fact that they were pretty much unbeatable and changed faces. Holland Manners is my second or third favorite Whedonverse villain of all time. His speech to Angel in season 2 was excellent.

Lilah, Lindsey, Linwood, Hamilton, Lee, Knox, etc. not a weak W&H villain among the roster.

And then even non-W&H villains like Holtz, Skip, Sahjahn, and Jasmine were also really compelling.

I'd disagree about none of them being weak. Linwood and Holland Manners to me were weak. Oh sure they were evil and not necessarily stupid, but they could be weak. I suppose it depends on how you define weakness.

Speaking of Lindsey there is another character who I just disliked the way they ended things for him. Not that he didn't deserve to die. I also didn't find Eve particularly strong. Likewise Hamilton wasn't physically weak, but his own stupidity ended up doing him in.

You disliked Holland Manners? egads 😐

Wow. I didn't think that many people here would be into Buffy or Angel.

As for the better show, I'm marathoning from the beginning because I was younger when I watched them all and my memory is fuzzy. I do know that Angel replaced Buffy as my favorite at the time, so make of that what you will.

Well remember more and more people have netflix and both shows are on netflix in their entirety.

As for not liking Holland Manners, I didn't dislike him. I just could understand how someone could describe him as a weak character. Not weak as in bad, but perhaps weak like a cowardly person might be weak.

I'm actually wondering if anyone thinks we will ever see these shows remade? Maybe in a few decades? Since movies being remade isn't the only recent trend, now some tv shows have been remade too. One thing I'd love to see(if it was remade) was for them to make vampires come off as more threatening.

Originally posted by Surtur
Well remember more and more people have netflix and both shows are on netflix in their entirety.

As for not liking Holland Manners, I didn't dislike him. I just could understand how someone could describe him as a weak character. Not weak as in bad, but perhaps weak like a cowardly person might be weak.

I'm actually wondering if anyone thinks we will ever see these shows remade? Maybe in a few decades? Since movies being remade isn't the only recent trend, now some tv shows have been remade too. One thing I'd love to see(if it was remade) was for them to make vampires come off as more threatening.

EDIT: Looked it up. The show is actually a prequel to the movie, and the movie is still considered cannon. Apparently, they were trying to remake the movie a couple of years back, though no news has been heard about that since 2009.

How could the show be a prequel to the movie? Buffy references Pike in the tv series meaning she had clearly met him prior to the events of the show.

Also in the movie she is still in high school and by the end of the tv show she had long since graduated high school. They also talk about the fact her previous Watcher died in the series, which is what happens at the end of the movie. But as I said, Buffy does reference characters from the movie and we do even see a flashback of her Watcher(not played by Donald Sutherland obviously) at one point in the first season. So we know that it is somewhat canon. In the series Buffy from the very first episode is already aware of the supernatural and of who she is and her powers, which isn't the case for the movie.

There also was talks about some movies being made after both Angel and Buffy were off the air, but they only had a small window to make them given some of the characters are meant to be immortal and will have obviously aged. It's the reason the guy who played Spike said he will never play him again.

The show does continue in comic form. There was a season 8 in comics and I think it is on season 10 now. The comics are actually pretty good.

Originally posted by Surtur
But they weren't really worse. Willow loving a demon in a computer isn't any sillier then the detachable limb guy. Oh if you just read the descriptions then I guess maybe, but actually SEEING the limb episode it basically puts any season 1 Buffy episode to shame..and yes that is the very same season that includes a demon hunter whose soul is inside a ventriloquist dummy.

Also yeah most shows have rocky first seasons that was my point. When Angel came around the show had been established for years and they had a nice backdrop of characters and mythology to draw upon. The first season of Buffy was only 12 episodes and all they had to go on was the movie.

Also for you to say once Angel found it's stride it never lost it would require us to ignore season 5 episodes like the puppet episode. Or how about the royal f*ck up that was the way they handled Cordy's character by the end? That is never losing a stride to you?

At least I will admit certain terrible things about Buffy whereas you don't seem to want to see the faults in Angel.

Cordelia had outside issues and had to be written out if the show, it still didn't ruin the season. Buffy could barely string together two good seasons.

Ok, but I never said Angel was without fault, so not sure why you're lying about that. Angel was, is, and willl always be the superior show. 👆

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Buffy was my first major TV love {other than Boy Meets World} and I was a huge fan. It still holds up well.

That said, Angel is my favorite TV show of all time and I've watched a lot of TV. I think Angel's stronger all around: stronger characters, better development, more interesting stories and arcs, more engaging themes, and villains that are as good if not better.

Definitely not without flaws, but excellent nonetheless.