this is the way he dealt with things; logical without emotion clouding his judgement. the uchiha's genetic predisposition has to be controlled so he relegated them to the police force as hokage, it was all to prevent another madara from generating, little did he know the real one was still kicking around causing trouble and later uchiha were inspired by madara's classic escapades
madara is the bad guy here
Though this chapter makes me wonder how things would've turned out if Tobirama died instead of Izuna. Would Konoha still be formed...would Hashirama go apeshit and leave? Just wondering.
But...exactly why did Tobirama feel the need to use democracy to get Hashirama in when every Kage afterwards was chosen by the previous one...and in Tsunade's case the council?
Dunno. I really don't think Hashirama would have acted the same way as Madara. By that point Madara might have been willing to let things go too since his brother would still have been alive. Of course Izuna was just as racist as Tobirama but he also had more respect than Madara.
And the politics of the village is a bit off. I think in some respects there is a democracy(Jonin have to approve of you) but the nomination process seems to be "Whoever is in the highest authority appoints the Hokage" thing. I.e Tobirama had the right to appoint Hiruzen, while the Daimyo appointed Danzo. Perhaps Tobirama knew Hiruzen was a sure fire win due to being a nice guy?
But it really doesn't matter. I think since Hashirama founded the village he had every right to choose the Hokage but that is just me.
I think that it's a matter of endorsements and the previous Hokage simply having a lot of pull. Like, when Tobirama appointed Hiruzen, he was merely candidate Hokage until the former selection... but in all cases that's been a person who'd be a top candidate even *without* the endorsement.
If there'd been a flat election, Hiruzen vs Danzo would've been natural candidates already. And it'd be a contest, but throw in an endorsement from Tobirama and it becomes a shoe-in, though the process remains.
Originally posted by Q99
I think that it's a matter of endorsements and the previous Hokage simply having a lot of pull. Like, when Tobirama appointed Hiruzen, he was merely candidate Hokage until the former selection... but in all cases that's been a person who'd be a top candidate even *without* the endorsement.If there'd been a flat election, Hiruzen vs Danzo would've been natural candidates already. And it'd be a contest, but throw in an endorsement from Tobirama and it becomes a shoe-in, though the process remains.
Uhhh, yes, what Q99 said. The endorsement makes a person practically a shoo-in.
I think Madara was wrong when he said the council would not approve of him and would select Hashirama, instead. Hashirama had the right idea by making Madara the Hokage. That really was the solution to creating solidarity.
Had Madara thought 4 seconds ahead, he would have seen that that was the best possible way to create long-lasting peace.
I know some of you will argue that the Uchiha were already plotting or something. I disagree. There were concerns, no doubt, but no plots at that time. What we would have seen, with Madara in place, was a solid military city with all clans getting along just fine. Madara's place as Hokage would show the Fire Nation (lol) was on board with the Uchiha, and the Uchiha people would be more confident in the slightly shaky association.
Also, Madara was smart enough/prideful enough to not come off as a lapdog of the Uchiha. He would not be made a fool of by the Senju or Fire Nation (again, lol). I would see a much different outcome if Madara would have just shutup and taken the position. We can blame all of the Uchiha's problems on Madara, if you'd like. Of course, the Uchiha are always to blame for their own decisions but they would not have been in that position had Madara taken the Hokage-ship.
Also i believe madara still would be who he is, because his brother didnt die from the sword wound he died by his brother taking his eyes. That is why the uchiha resent him and dont listen to word he says.
As a side note if the hokage returned to the battle the forth will realize it was tobi who attacked the village for his knowledge he thinks hes dead
I think Madara was wrong when he said the council would not approve of him and would select Hashirama, instead. Hashirama had the right idea by making Madara the Hokage. That really was the solution to creating solidarity.
After all, Madara would have Hashirama's endorsement!
Though, here's a hypothesis- Madara saw the new village cracking, and decided to unite it by giving it a continual outside threat that could make them come together, him. (Which may have gone out the window later)
Originally posted by AuraAngelthat's still debatable since like i said, he doesn't feel that what he did was segregation, but rather a display of trust. it just so happens the they all lived near the prison grounds, but that kinda goes hand in hand.
All he did was implement segregation guys. It's not THAT BAD.
never said he was a saint, but he was a careful guy. madara was the one who made tobirama's decisions necessary
lol, tobirama could have done a looot worse to the uchiha clan if he was bigoted as everyone thinks. he gave them a purpose that was suited for their capabilities with a lot of responsibilities. this is not a miniscule task to uphold nor a is it a miniscule showing of compassion on tobirama's part.
he didn't do things with emotion like stupidass hashirama who went as far as almost stabbing himself on a whim. madara must have chuckled to himself in his brain at what a simp hashi was even after certain victory. hashirama couldn't do things without someone assisting him cause he tends to use his feelings more than his logic. the depression spells are not just for jokes; he has mental issues.
madara was also a bytch even his own clan didn't want to phuck with him until mad decades later. he was the worst representative for their clan and apparently everyone including the uchiha and madara himself knew this fact, only hashi was unaware of it. another thing: him sneaking around listening to conversations is not trustworthy at all. you don't do that when you're an upfront kind of guy looking to show how much of a reformed individual you are, especially when tobirama is in the room.
I still disagree. Tobirama was going to persecute the Uchiha based on things that they might do. Which wasn't really necesarry since the Uchiha appeared to be pretty chill with the whole truce thing and even liked Hashirama. Granted that Madara's temper tantrum did get them into this, Tobirama was kind of the cause of it.
Though I wonder if things would've been that bad if Madara was the second Hokage.
and what prey tell was this horrible persecution, giving the uchiha a highly responsible task that kept the peace and kept them sharp? the inuzuka clan train dogs, the aburame raise beetles, etc. the uchiha were utilized for their talents and were made integral to the village's safety. the "curse of hatred" was their fatal flaw and the reason of all their misfortune. tobito's word can also be taken as very dubious since his motives are to makes sasuke turn evil, plus he's lied before.
tobirama is the voice of reason in a manga filled with unreasonable milksops
Originally posted by psycho gundam
wtf?[B]madara wants to end life on earth as we know it. tobirama was wise enough to pick up on uchiha bullshit early, and if it wasn't for hashirama's softness he could have stabbed the guy in the face. no madara. no izuna. no everything (for the most part)
also: danzou's talk-no-jutsu is so strong it trained itachi to control his uchiha emotion mutation [/B]
Pretty much this.
So let's see who was the only person with reason behind all this mess:
Tobirama as a kid saw Senju fighting Uchiha and viceversa.
Tobirama sees Hashirama trying to do peace with Madara even though Madara killed countless of his clan and just wanted to pretty much wipe all Senju around, and was at Hashirama's merci. Yet Hashirama lets him live just because some years ago they were 2 innocent children who got along with each other for a matter of months. Fair enough.
So now we have the hidden leaf village, and strangely enough Tobirama doesn't trust Uchiha, especially Madara. One day he talks with his brother about the hokage's position, and he was honest enough to say him that even though he could support Madara, the people would chose him. And guess what, Madara was spying them.
Some time later, after making truce, setting all their differences aside, just because Tobirama still not trusted the Uchiha (God, how did that happened???) Madara goes apesh*t, tells Hashirama he will kill him, and some time later he grabs the kyubi and tries to kill everybody, Hashirama included.
Even after all that, Tobirama puts the Uchiha as the police of the village, so they could be under watch, what is PERFECTLY understandable after all this sh*t.
Several decades later, the kyubi attacks the leaf. People are suspicious of the Uchiha, what is understandable since the Madara pulled that move before. So what do they do? Did they wait for things calm down, talking with the rest of the village? Or maybe waiting for Itachi to came at age, since he would pretty much be the next in line for the hokage's position just by judging how talented he was as a shinobi, thus finally having a Uchiha as Hokage? And we are talking about a guy who was already a Anbu, so everybody would ackwnoledge that decision.
No, let's make a coup d'etat and kill everybody in the village! Oh wait, that sh*t backfired and they were all killed instead by one of there own who had enough sense to limit the bloodbath.
So in all this, I am sorry if I have no sorrow for what happened to the Uchiha after all the sh*t they tried to pull out, and if I think Tobirama did what any person with reason would do and Madara was a sensive b*tch that would turn apesh*t and decide to exterminate everybody just because Tobirama doesn't trust the leader of the guys who killed his father and brothers.
Originally posted by psycho gundam
that's still debatable since like i said, he doesn't feel that what he did was segregation, but rather a display of trust. it just so happens the they all lived near the prison grounds, but that kinda goes hand in hand.never said he was a saint, but he was a careful guy. madara was the one who made tobirama's decisions necessary
Lol I love this argument. In the same vein Madara doesn't see himself as wrong for wanting to enslave humanity. =D
False. Tobirama's mistrust and deciding to act before the Uchiha had actually, you know, done something wrong is what caused Madara to start hating everything again.
Originally posted by psycho gundam
lol, tobirama could have done a looot worse to the uchiha clan if he was bigoted as everyone thinks. he gave them a purpose that was suited for their capabilities with a lot of responsibilities. this is not a miniscule task to uphold nor a is it a miniscule showing of compassion on tobirama's part.he didn't do things with emotion like stupidass hashirama who went as far as almost stabbing himself on a whim. madara must have chuckled to himself in his brain at what a simp hashi was even after certain victory. hashirama couldn't do things without someone assisting him cause he tends to use his feelings more than his logic. the depression spells are not just for jokes; he has mental issues.
madara was also a bytch even his own clan didn't want to phuck with him until mad decades later. he was the worst representative for their clan and apparently everyone including the uchiha and madara himself knew this fact, only hashi was unaware of it. another thing: him sneaking around listening to conversations is not trustworthy at all. you don't do that when you're an upfront kind of guy looking to show how much of a reformed individual you are, especially when tobirama is in the room.
Yeah...and black people were dumb in the head but awesome in the body. Slave holders gave them jobs they could excel at. Hell, they food, clothed, and sheltered them. Da **** was that Civil War for anyway? Ungrateful bastards.
Kinda walked into that one.
Lesse: Hashirama revolutionizes the entire ninja world by establishing a system that brought about more stability. Tobirama segregated a clan and was indirectly responsible for Madara's fall from grace. Yep, clearly Shodaime is the dumb brother.
Lol no one here thinks Madara is some spotless ray of sunshine. But if you could tell me what Madara did in this chapter, from the moment he stopped Hashirama from killing himself to the moment Tobirama started planning to "deal" with the Uchiha, that made Tobirama think Madara posed a threat to the village then by all means do it. And lol are you seriously saying that Madara eavesdropping on them makes him untrustworthy? haermm Tobirama not only did the same thing as a kid but as an adult was clearly planning to **** over the Uchiha for a rumor.
Oh yeah.
Madara just simply showed more admirable qualities. He showed that he was willing to give peace a chance. The fact that just hearing about what Tobirama planned to do caused him to leave makes him look pretty paranoid. But be that as it may he was willing to live in the village with the people responsible for his brothers death. Tobirama is the one who didn't seem willing to accept the peace. Hell even if you want to say he wasn't racist to the Uchiha he still pretty clearly treated Madara like crap.
Tobirama: "You should elect Madara. I mean it's not like he'll win but it's like nominating the nerd for Prom King. It's funny just to do it and laugh about it afterwards trololol."