They did not know he could read minds when they made that decision. If they knew that then imo the best decision would have been to message Naruto to seek hiding elsewhere. Though given that knowledge I admit that the decision wouldn't have been so terrible but that was not what they were relying on at the time. They made the decision based on blind faith that Naruto would triumph.
Originally posted by King Kandy
You are still not paying attention.
Woah. Don't get your panties in a bunch.
Originally posted by King Kandy
That was something she would have done even if she WASN'T Hokage.
No it wouldn't be, because:
1. She would literally still be gambling away.
2. She would also not have the commitment to Konoha at all.
I guess someone didn't pay attention at all during that arc...
Originally posted by King Kandy
Any ninja can contribute his personal powers to the struggle.
However, Tsunade was the ONLY ninja on the WHOLE face of the planet that could have saved almost every last member of Konoha, like she did, with her mass healing Jutsu.
Check that:
The ONLY person.
Originally posted by King Kandy
I'm asking what she did USING THE POWERS OF THE HOKAGE POSITION that impressed you so much. Not "she did x with her x jutsu". Because you don't need to be Hokage to use jutsu.
But you certainly have a huge sense of protecting the village at ANY cost to yourself, as Hokage, which pretty much sums up what being hokage is about...or did you miss the absurd amount of times that idea was thrust into your face?
No one can fault Tsunade for epitomizing what it means to be Hokage...but you can if you don't know what the position is about. 🙂
Originally posted by Nephthys
So? I mean, so what, that's reason enough to kill EVERY ****ING ONE? The men, the women, the old, the young, the mother****ing babies!? The fact that 10 or so wanted to take over the villiage is enough to do that, to commit genocide. Yeah, maybe you should think before you side with someone.
You laughably fail to realize how someone from the Uchiha clan can serve as a threat without any combat prowess. They could not risk any of the survivors spreading what happened, uncovering what actually happened. Many of the Uchiha elders could've posessed knowledge of the clan's intention. Itachi discovered that his father was preparing the rest of the clan for war. You're also an idiot for claiming that the young are supposedly so innocent, when they're being trained as warriors from like the age of 6. You don't have anything to back the claim that "only 10 or so" wanted to take over the village. Genocide? Is that what you call a tactical strike at your enemies? Killing a village that's planning to take you out barely qualifies as a pre-emptive strike.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, it was risky to call Naruto back to the village, as he well could have lost, but the alternative was to Pein continue on his rampage to kill everyone in the village. Naruto was the ONLY thing that could have stopped Pein and prevent further loss of life. Tsunade made the right choice in calling for him.
We don't know if Naruto was the only one capable of winning that fight, don't sell the entire city short. The majority of Konoha's military dying or retreating is a MUCH better alternative to Akatsuki getting their hands on Naruto. Do you understand what would've happened if he had been taken? Akatsuki would've become completely unstoppable and achieved the goal, which would've had consequences for the entire world.
Originally posted by Nephthys
So? I mean, so what, that's reason enough to kill EVERY **
Danzo on the other hand, killed the frog calling for Naruto to keep him out of the way, so that he could capitalize on the death count to position himself as Hokage. Now tell me, does this seem like the kind of man you would want in charge of your life? Becuase I sure a shit wouldn't.
Why shouldn't he kill the frog? I've already explained why it was a horrible idea to summon Naruto. And let's try and put these decisions in a setting where reality along with the time-space continuum does not bend and fold so that the main-character will triumph. We're trying to determine whether or not these were good decisions, Tsunade or any of the other characters do not know that they exist in a manga, that everything will always work out in the end.
You also completely fail to realize that Shinobi are TOOLS. And that these kids are trained to think that they are tools and that their lives are nothing. The shinobi in Konoha are disposable heroes, on Tazuna's protection mission, naruto, sasuke and sakura would have given their own lives in order to protect him. This is not because of your stupid ethics or some vision that it is right, but rather because their Hokage demands it of them.
Originally posted by Nephthys
You implied by comparing Danzo with 'kindergarden politics and "bnice2evrybudy!", that this was what Sarutobi and Tsunade's leadership style was. I corrected you.
No, I compared his style to what you THINK is going on in Konoha. Your idea of how Danzou would run things, is about as ludicrous as the your idea of how Sarutobi ran things.
Originally posted by Nephthys
FACT: Danzo believes his opinions to be superior to other's, as shown by his opposition to previous Hokages philosophies. In fact he believes in his own ideals so highly he is willing to do anything to see them realised.
We all believe that our opinions are superior to many others. Danzou disagreed with the Hokages that were promoted, that's his basic human right. Everybody is entitled to disagreeing. America's got a history of making stupid, incompetent people presidents, disagreeing with this does not make you an evil person.
The previous Hokage's can not have done much either, seeing as only Tsunade was able to begin bridging the gaps between the nations, and that was limited to Sand and Sand alone. Konoha has been a warring nation ever since it has been founded. Their foundation is based in blood, what the hell do you think were going on?
Anybody with some ****ing balls and proper willpower will do anything to see their own ideals realized.
If I'm not mistaken Naruto repeated PAINTED OVER the Kage monuments several times.
Originally posted by Nephthys
FACT: Danzo is not opposed to unethical and unlawful acts, as shown by his involvement in the Uchiha massacre, his deal with Hanzo, his involvement in the pein arc and his treatment of his special ops group.t.
lmfao, the Uchiha massacre was a branichild conceived by the KONOHA COUNCIL. Many of the leading figures in Konoha conspired to this, and while you might think it's lawful the people who make law and policy in Konoha made the decision. There is no law against the way he handles ROOT, nor is making an alliance with a foreign leader very unethical.
Once again, you try to pass something off by using the word "fact" and then bringing up some ridiculously relative words. Ethics lies in the eye of the beholder and law varies, Danzou did not break any more laws than the people involved in the Uchiha Massacre. And like I told you, they were going to attack Konoha and attempt a coup.
Originally posted by Nephthys
FACT: Danzo is actively reaching for a dictatorship, as shown by his quest to achieve power, his willingness to manipulate his citizenry and obtain power over others.
Not a fact, just a stupid speculation made by someone with a very limited understanding of danzou's character and apparently the concept of dictatorship. Konoha is controlled by a council and lone figure, who repeatedly make decisions away from the eyes of the people. What is this to you, a fukcign democracy? 😆
Originally posted by Nephthys
So? I mean, so what, that's reason enough to kill EVERY ***
It's all of this, not his laughably minor action of declaring Sasuke a missing-nin, that makes him a budding Stalin.
This is where you really fail.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/452/02/
Sasuke already was a missing nin, there just wasn't a warrant for his death. He was in Sai's bingo book, and exactly what is wrong with killing Sasuke? He ran off with one of the village's enemies and fought Konoha Shinobi.
Originally posted by Nephthys
He wasn't safeguarding shit, he just wanted him out of the way. And killing traitors is common sense. Killing them AND their entire families just makes you a lunatic.
LOLWUT? I'll lay down some facts for you.
- Sasuke's family was dead BEFORE he became a missing nin.
- Danzou wanted to prevent Naruto from falling into Akatsuki's hands, read the manga.
- Go read up on the definition of lunatic.
You seem to have a really hard time coping with the way the Shinobi world works. In every nation children are trained to become tools, they're trained to murder and give their lives to forward the nation's goals. What kind of ethics do you think applies here? Danzou's not entitled to kill a missing nin or a frog, but it's cool for all the Shinobi to kill OTHER foreign enemies?
How is killing the Uchiha different from killing enemies or another warring nation? Because some kids got snuffed? Learn how to add 2 and 2, age, check up on how war actually works in real life, age and read up on some things that probably aren't in retard high's curriculum.
Originally posted by dadudemon
No it wouldn't be, because:1. She would literally still be gambling away.
2. She would also not have the commitment to Konoha at all.
I guess someone didn't pay attention at all during that arc...
The job is to command Konoha's ninja. It is not "sit around and hopefully get to like your country enough to help out."
Originally posted by dadudemon
However, Tsunade was the ONLY ninja on the WHOLE face of the planet that could have saved almost every last member of Konoha, like she did, with her mass healing Jutsu.
Originally posted by dadudemon
But you certainly have a huge sense of protecting the village at ANY cost to yourself, as Hokage, which pretty much sums up what being hokage is about...or did you miss the absurd amount of times that idea was thrust into your face?
Originally posted by dadudemon
No one can fault Tsunade for epitomizing what it means to be Hokage...but you can if you don't know what the position is about. 🙂
You're an idiot.
The Hokage is typically the strongest ninja in Konoha for a reason.
A Hokage=/=President. A president does not do actual fighting and does not defend the nation personally, only commanding troops.
A Hokage actively must be able to come to the defense of their village during an invasion.
Although to answer your question political-wise, she was able to give orders and communicate via Katsuya and before that was having her government work on a tactic to battle Pain.
She revealed the weakness of Shinra Tensei to Naruto for example.
What do you think she should have done then Kandy?
Fact of the matter is, her healing and keeping the majority of Konoha alive IS part of her job as Hokage.
And so it is. But any personal power somebody wields as part of the Hokage job, they could have likewise wielded as a Jonin. The thing that separates a Hokage from a Jonin is their ability to command Konoha in battle. It's not like becoming Hokage gives you a boost in chakra or anything. How well you performed as a Hokage is completely different then how you performed as a Ninja. A ninja's performance is based on what they can do by themselves, a Hokage's performance is based on what they can do in command of others.
Originally posted by NemeBro👆 That's what i said and he's like "nu uh"
You're an idiot.The Hokage is typically the strongest ninja in Konoha for a reason.
A Hokage=/=President. A president does not do actual fighting and does not defend the nation personally, only commanding troops.
A Hokage actively must be able to come to the defense of their village during an invasion.
Although to answer your question political-wise, she was able to give orders and communicate via Katsuya and before that was having her government work on a tactic to battle Pain.
She revealed the weakness of Shinra Tensei to Naruto for example.
What do you think she should have done then Kandy?
Fact of the matter is, her healing and keeping the majority of Konoha alive IS part of her job as Hokage.
Even Itachi thought that was the best option available. If you spare some all you end up with is a bunch of destructive terrorists like Sasuke. And it wasn't "ten or so" it was every adult Uchiha pretty much.
One psychopaths opinions don't = fact. If you agree with that point of view, then you should agree that we should kill every terrorist we find and their whole families here in the real world. Point is, when you kill innocent's becuase of what others have done, you have left the paths of logic and good.
And those kids could have told what their parents were doing, with time, care and proper management, those kids would have been diffused as threats. Sasuke for sure wouldn't have been the danger he is now if they had taken the time to properly explain things too him and if he had other Uchiha's to connect with.
Furthermore, I don't think it was necessarily necessary to kill the adults either. Capture or banishment could both have served just as well and wouldn't have led to Itachi or Sasuke. Sure, I can see the logic of killing them, they were very powerful and had the 9-tails, but to kill them and the families, thats a step too far. Killing babies for something the might go on to do is pure evil, no matter how you look at it.
That was not the best choice. If Naruto was captured then Akatsuki would have fulfilled their goal and taken on the entire world. If they let themselves take the hit then other countries could still carry on the fight.
Nemebro's already covered this excellently.
I think the reason why Danzo killed the frog was because he thought that it would lead to Akatsuki winning if he came. Danzo clearly believed that Naruto couldn't win so letting him fight would have increased the death count actually. So clearly he was motivated by the safety of the village.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v45/c421/17.html
He does look motivated about something, but not the safety of the village. And your theory doesn't correlate with the fact that he ordered his troops to help the village, a move which could only be motivated by greed.
"Never let people change your mind" is a recurring theme in the manga that heroes like Naruto are just as guilty of of.
And another theme is 'its ok to have ideals as long as they don't involve murder or genocide', which WAS the theme of the pein arc.
He's the leader of a country of warriors and spies who are trained to kill. Though frankly Danzo seems like the only one doing any actual spying. Every single thing you've mentioned was for the benefit of Konoha. Uchiha prevented a massive revolution that would have killed thousands,
Which could have been dealt with in a more humane fashion with ease.
Hanzo helped create an ally country during a world war,
Which wasn't Danzo's intention.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v47/c446/13.html
Pein would have kept Akatsuki from achieving their ultimate goal
Which the didn't know about and even still, the immediate safety of the village and its citizens comes first.
and the anbu have been vital to Konoha's national security.
Root is Danzo's spec ops, who have been trained not to feel emotions, which I feel is another case of 'a step too far'.
I do not think this is fact at all. He has done whatever it takes to protect Konoha and feels he can do this better than anyone else. Maybe he will be revealed as evil later but so far I see every indication that he is the best choice for Konoha.
I disagree, I think that most of what he's done has been purely for his own benefit and to make himself Hokage.
Oddly enough the in-universe characters care more about this than everything else combined.
Probably becuase Sasukes not our friend.
What makes you think he wasn't safeguarding Naruto? He definitely didn't think Naruto could defeat Pein so what motivation could he have had besides doing this to stop Akatsuki? If Naruto came and lost it wouldn't hurt him at all. In fact it would help since he could blame his death on Tsunade's orders.
Already dealt with but here's how I see it- If Naruto comes back and wins he might save the village, including Tsunade. If Naruto doesn't come back alot of the village die including Tsunade (Danzo's big change for Hokage), if Naruto comes back and loses he can blame it on Tsunade, but he loses the 9-tails and Akasuki, konohas enemy gains the most powerful tailed beast. In this scenario, not having him come back is the best choice for Danzo.
@ Nemebro- A fair analysis on all points, even if I don't agree with some of it. See above for why.
@ Blaze- I'll only aswer some of it, because I've already done most of it.
You laughably fail to realize how someone from the Uchiha clan can serve as a threat without any combat prowess. They could not risk any of the survivors spreading what happened, uncovering what actually happened. Many of the Uchiha elders could've posessed knowledge of the clan's intention. Itachi discovered that his father was preparing the rest of the clan for war. You're also an idiot for claiming that the young are supposedly so innocent, when they're being trained as warriors from like the age of 6. You don't have anything to back the claim that "only 10 or so" wanted to take over the village. Genocide? Is that what you call a tactical strike at your enemies? Killing a village that's planning to take you out barely qualifies as a pre-emptive strike.
But what Danzo did was in essence like if we found out about Iraq's 'nuclear weapons' and just nuked the entire country. Not only was it unethical, impractical, unlawful etc, but it has one hell of a fallout afterwards.
Also, what about those under six?
No, I compared his style to what you THINK is going on in Konoha. Your idea of how Danzou would run things, is about as ludicrous as the your idea of how Sarutobi ran things.
Well then you utterly fail in what I think about whats going on in konoha. I've admitted that killing threats is a sound idea. Killing threats AND anyone who just so happenes to be close by is stupid and unethical.
We all believe that our opinions are superior to many others. Danzou disagreed with the Hokages that were promoted, that's his basic human right. Everybody is entitled to disagreeing. America's got a history of making stupid, incompetent people presidents, disagreeing with this does not make you an evil person.The previous Hokage's can not have done much either, seeing as only Tsunade was able to begin bridging the gaps between the nations, and that was limited to Sand and Sand alone. Konoha has been a warring nation ever since it has been founded. Their foundation is based in blood, what the hell do you think were going on?
Anybody with some ****ing balls and proper willpower will do anything to see their own ideals realized.
If I'm not mistaken Naruto repeated PAINTED OVER the Kage monuments several times.
Utter fail.
LOLWUT? I'll lay down some facts for you.- Sasuke's family was dead BEFORE he became a missing nin.
- Danzou wanted to prevent Naruto from falling into Akatsuki's hands, read the manga.
- Go read up on the definition of lunatic.
You completely and utterly fail 100%. I wasn't talking abou Sasuke you ****ing moron, his becoming a missing-nin is irrelevent, I was talking about killing all those Uchiha plotting to overthrow konoha AND THEN killing their entire family as well. Killing innocent babies must make you unhinged in some respect.
And your wrong about Danzos wishes with Naruto.
This is where you really fail.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/452/02/
Sasuke already was a missing nin, there just wasn't a warrant for his death. He was in Sai's bingo book, and exactly what is wrong with killing Sasuke? He ran off with one of the village's enemies and fought Konoha Shinobi.
Comprehension fail. Learn English, then get back to me.
We all believe that our opinions are superior to many others. Danzou disagreed with the Hokages that were promoted, that's his basic human right. Everybody is entitled to disagreeing. America's got a history of making stupid, incompetent people presidents, disagreeing with this does not make you an evil person.
But murdering to get your way does.
Originally posted by King Kandy
So apparently to you the point of the Hokage job is to motivate the person to help the village. So the job should logically go to the laziest most incompetent person around...
No where did I say that or even imply it. 😐
No wonder you have fallacious ideas about Naruto...you have comprehension problems.
The position is one of the if not the most powerful ninja that is also best suited to lead the village. Extremely fundamental to that position is protecting the village and the people at any cost ...including dissolution of peace treaties if it is the best way to save lives....or sacrificing his or herself to save the village.
This is all a major DUH for you, but it escapes you and you not only missed the implications in my post, you purposefully made something up that wasn't even tangential.
Originally posted by King Kandy
The job is to [B]command Konoha's ninja. It is not "sit around and hopefully get to like your country enough to help out."[/B]
Please, sir, quote me where I contradicted this statement.
And your second statement...that's not exactly what happened, but it was close enough for Tsunade. 😐
Originally posted by King Kandy
And yet I am still waiting for an example of something she did politics-wise that did anything good for Konoha. Because being Hokage is a political position.This is like saying you should vote for somebody as president because they're a black belt.
I'm not here to talk about politics. I'm here talking about a fictional comic book series from japan.
However, you obviously don't know shit about what a Hokage is. They are SUPPOSED to be the strongest or at least as close to the strongest as possible.
She was a flake, gambler, and had an extreme aversion to blood. Hardly the best choice for Hokage. Now, tell me, sir, why did they still choose Tsunade? 🙂
Originally posted by King Kandy
Once again..
i am prince of all saiyans.
Originally posted by King Kandy
this is going on the ludicrous notion that the point of the Hokage position is to provide someone with motivation to use their powers to aid Konoha.
That's only part of being a Kage.
It's politics (peace, war, diplomacy, etc.), governance of the village, protection the village with the best ninja's for each task, and sacrificing anything and everything for the sake of the village and the villagers.
Originally posted by King Kandy
It is a political role designed to lead Konoha's forces.
You're getting warmer. Konoha is a military village specifically for the defense of the land of fire.
Originally posted by King Kandy
Last I heard you don't elect someone president based on what they can do using their own two hands, you do it on what they can do using the political system.
Great. That's the U.S. government system, not the governance system in Naruto. Do try try to stay on topic. 😄
Originally posted by King Kandy
You're right. I was so wrong in thinking the point of being a politician was to engage in politics... 🙄
It's closer to a front lines general than a President, douche. They land of fire actually has a "president" or "king". 😐 They call that president the Daimyo or some shit.
nobody else (besides danzo) wanted the job, and tsunade's monster strength, second to none medical abilities, and the ability to summon one of the stronger/intelligent animal summons are crucial in a village defense scenario.
not many ninja could survive one shot from tsunade, even a glancing blow, orochimaru is one if not the only one who can for a fact. shit, damage from her is comperable to getting attacked by a multi-tailed naruto.