For all you scientists out there...batteries and thermodynamics

I've searched for other threads on this topic and can't find them, so here goes:

It seems that the one irrefutable logical flaw in The Matrix universe is the whole idea of using humans as energy sources. Because the rest of the universe is so logically tight, I would love to believe that I am missing something.

This is the problem: Humans produce electricity, but they do this ONLY by CONVERTING the energy in food into electricity. Growing/synthesizing food requires energy (our present energy source is the sun). There is NO WAY that the machines can get more energy out of the humans as electricity than they put into them as food (second law of thermodynamics; we can argue about this if you wish, but as Omega will tell you, it is absolutely unavoidable).

On the face of it, it would make much more sense for the machines to just use what ever energy they are using to grow/synthesize human food (there is a mention of "fusion"😉 as a direct source of energy for themselves (i.e., instead of using this energy to make food, use it to make electricity).

Yes, the movies state that dead humans are recycled. This WOULD work for a while, but as one never gets as much energy out as one puts in, the number of humans will dwindle as it takes lots of dead people to maintain a small number of living ones.

I can't believe The Bros didn't understand this problem, given how much they know about everything ELSE.

So, why batteries??? Why not computing power (this HAS been done by a number of other Sci Fi novels including the Dan Simmons Hyperion series)

If anyone can answer this, you guys can!! 💃

Because it fitted the style better this way. Forget the science of it.

>Ushgarak "Because it fitted the style better this way. Forget the science of it."

I agree that this is the most likely answer. It just seems so unsatisfying 🙁 -- thinking is encouraged in (essential to) other aspects of the movies, why turn it off here??

I can be wrong but you mean the 1st law of thermodynamics, don't you?

I read an article on it that said it was possible, but they'd get nowhere near as much as they said they'd get.

The Matrix was not created only to produce energy...of course the machines are interested in understand some aspects of the human nature..

> The One Himself: While I did mean "second law", you are correct that BOTH the first and second laws are relevant here.

The first law states that "energy is conserved", meaning that energy may be transformed from one kind to another (say chemical to electrical), but the total energy of the universe (system + surroundings) stays the same.

The second law basically states that whenever such an energy transformation takes place, some energy is lost to the surroundings (actually, there are MANY different ways to state the second law, but this version is relevant here).

I was trying to find a reasonable web site to direct people to, but most are fairly painful, so I can't recommend any one in particular.

> The One Himself: your idea that the machines have enslaved people because they want to "understand aspects of human nature" is very interesting and is perhaps a way out of this problem. If the machines could get electricity and at the same time gather immense amounts of data about human behavior in a controlled situation, they would almost get "two for the price of one".

Remember, we have only heard the HUMAN idea of why humans are enslaved. Perhaps the machines do have additional purposes....

I think that they actually said something about using the thermal energy (aka heat) given off by the humans as energy.

But scientifically, it wouldn't work nearly as well as it does in the movie. We actually had a discussion about this last year in my physics class 😄

It is so magnificently irrelevant.

Physics isnt really my strong-point 😖

Originally posted by Ushgarak
It is so magnificently irrelevant.

"Is there an echo in here? The MTV movie awards are a systemic anomaly inherent to the programming of the Matrix. Although the transport process has altered your consciousness you irrevocably remain human. Ergo…concordantly…vis-à-vis. You know what? I have no idea what the hell I’m saying. I just thought it would make me sound cool."
😆 😆 😆

😆

Heehee...

I loved physics, and last year when we were learning about energy transforming and all the stuff we started talking about the Matrix (and no, I didn't start that conversation, kinda like the other day when we were discussing Star Wars in Biology...) and we more or less came to the decision that it wouldn't be possible for humans to be used as batteries and put off that much energy.

> Ushgarak "It is so magnificently irrelevant."

I disagree. This is the logical foundation for the entire "world" created by the movie.

I want to know if this is a flaw, or if there is another answer. Given the amount of detail The Bros put into other logical aspects of the movie, I am surprised that such a logical flaw would exist. Is there any reason to think that there is ANOTHER reason that the machines have enslaved humanity???

The THING about the second law of thermodynamics is, that it gives time a direction. Energy can indeed be transformed from one kind (such as radiation) to another (such as kinetic) – BUT – and there always is a but: Energy can be divided into types, and when you transform energy you always get a less “pure” type of energy out of it.
By less pure I mean we start to get chaos into our system (The scientifically inclined will recognise Maxwell’s demon sneaking its way in here). And by studying the progression from “pure” energy to less “pure” energy we can recognise the arrow of time (you can’t unscramble eggs).
Without an external power-source the Matrix machinery won’t work in real life. All energy on the Earth can basically be traced back to the Sun, and that’s just burning away happily.
What saves the Matrix is “some kind of fusion”. But of course – the Machines should just use “some kind of fusion” and not bother using humans, as that is basically a rather costly type of energy.
But, hey – it’s called suspension of disbelief. A scientist needs that or sci-fi generally won’t work AT all 😉

I’m reminded of the opening-song from Mystery Science Theory 3K.
“Just think to yourself it’s just a show, and you should really just relax.”

Originally posted by The Omega
Energy can be divided into types, and when you transform energy you always get a less “pure” type of energy out of it.
By less pure I mean we start to get chaos into our system (The scientifically inclined will recognise Maxwell’s demon sneaking its way in here). And by studying the progression from “pure” energy to less “pure” energy we can recognise the arrow of time (you can’t unscramble eggs).

Yep, good old entropy working away there...

Originally posted by BioLogos
> Ushgarak "It is so magnificently irrelevant."

I disagree. This is the logical foundation for the entire "world" created by the movie.

I want to know if this is a flaw, or if there is another answer. Given the amount of detail The Bros put into other logical aspects of the movie, I am surprised that such a logical flaw would exist. Is there any reason to think that there is ANOTHER reason that the machines have enslaved humanity???

See, this just shows your erroneous mentality. Stop trying to look at the SCIENCE of it. This is just the set-up of the plot. Just because the Matrix has a more modern setting, people seem to see the fact that is is pseudo-science as some sort of flaw. But in Star Wars, no-one questions the existence of lightsabres, laser guns, the Force, sound in space and spaceships that manoeuvre like WWII fighters, all ridiculous concepts.

There is NO other reason, no hidden agenda. This is just the set-up of the film and to call it a logical flaw just because it is not 100% scientific is an entirely silly thing to do.

The science of the way in which humans are used as batteries IS magnificently irrelevant and it is a waste of time to worry too much about it.

Just accept it as the plot and deal with it. As Omega says, this is simple suspension of disbelief, a basic tool of drama. Do not find mysteries or flaws where there are none.

OK. If belief must be suspended, i'll suspend it. This is what I wanted to know.

Just so that you don't think I'm completely crazy: I would never DREAM of questioning light sabers because there is no attempt in Star Wars to have any particularly "deep thoughts" -- it is just a modern fairy tale that is a lot of fun. I LOVE Star Wars and all sorts of other "science fiction" that is heavier on the fiction than the science.

However, is the fact that so much thought went into The Matrix that made me wonder whether the "battery" issue requires the same disbelief as light sabers OR whether something else might be going on. Thank you all for your thoughts!

Originally posted by The Omega
The THING about the second law of thermodynamics is, that it gives time a direction. Energy can indeed be transformed from one kind (such as radiation) to another (such as kinetic) – BUT – and there always is a but: Energy can be divided into types, and when you transform energy you always get a less “pure” type of energy out of it.
By less pure I mean we start to get chaos into our system (The scientifically inclined will recognise Maxwell’s demon sneaking its way in here). And by studying the progression from “pure” energy to less “pure” energy we can recognise the arrow of time (you can’t unscramble eggs).
Without an external power-source the Matrix machinery won’t work in real life. All energy on the Earth can basically be traced back to the Sun, and that’s just burning away happily.
What saves the Matrix is “some kind of fusion”. But of course – the Machines should just use “some kind of fusion” and not bother using humans, as that is basically a rather costly type of energy.
But, hey – it’s called suspension of disbelief. A scientist needs that or sci-fi generally won’t work AT all 😉

I’m reminded of the opening-song from Mystery Science Theory 3K.
“Just think to yourself it’s just a show, and you should really just relax.”

Ammmm.. I guess when you say "less pure energy" you are assuming a non conservative system (real system) when part of the energy is converted in other different types of energy (kinetic for instance). However, unless you loose energy to create mass the amount of energy must be the same after and before the process. The second law says that you can not convert 100 % of energy into Work.
But do not crucify me, I not a physicist, I'm just a crazy guy... 😛

the fusion which is mentioned may quite have to do with the advancement of A.I from the minds of many plugged in2 the matrix....
and this might have given rise to some sort of device that can satisfy the thirst for power consumption....and maybe the power needed to work this particular machine may be the energy produced by humans which eventhough being less(for all the machines but enough for the device) would do the work.

the device maybe used to amplify this power......
i kno this is just a far-fetched idea.....but do give ur comments on the issue.....

also in reloaded hanman and neo both had a chat which resulted to the conclusion that both machines and humans need eachother to survive......