For all you scientists out there...batteries and thermodynamics

"BioLogos>This is the problem: Humans produce electricity, but they do this ONLY by CONVERTING the energy in food into electricity. Growing/synthesizing food requires energy (our present energy source is the sun). There is NO WAY that the machines can get more energy out of the humans as electricity than they put into them as food (second law of thermodynamics; we can argue about this if you wish, but as Omega will tell you, it is absolutely unavoidable).

On the face of it, it would make much more sense for the machines to just use what ever energy they are using to grow/synthesize human food (there is a mention of "fusion"😉 as a direct source of energy for themselves (i.e., instead of using this energy to make food, use it to make electricity).

its an interesting point and it is relevant.

Yes, the movies state that dead humans are recycled. This WOULD work for a while, but as one never gets as much energy out as one puts in, the number of humans will dwindle as it takes lots of dead people to maintain a small number of living ones."

do we know exactly how the machines are getting their power?
they are in those pods so everything that comes out of them could be used- heat, kinetic energy, waste (do they produce waste in the pods?), and they are plugged in so could the energy of the mind/brain be harnessed in some way- remember this is the future with technology that doesnt exist today.

Originally posted by BioLogos
OK. If belief must be suspended, i'll suspend it. This is what I wanted to know.

Just so that you don't think I'm completely crazy: I would never DREAM of questioning light sabers because there is no attempt in Star Wars to have any particularly "deep thoughts" -- it is just a modern fairy tale that is a lot of fun. I LOVE Star Wars and all sorts of other "science fiction" that is heavier on the fiction than the science.

However, is the fact that so much thought went into The Matrix that made me wonder whether the "battery" issue requires the same disbelief as light sabers OR whether something else might be going on. Thank you all for your thoughts!

No, see, I have to disagree here as well. Although it is pitched, simply, at kids, there are a numbver of deep ideas GL wanted to, and has, put into Star Wars- like the issues of loyalty, friendship, betrayal, and how a good person turns bad. And the decline of the Republic is actually a rather well done comment on democracy as a whole- much as such a comment seems out of place in a Star Wars film! But he tells that amidst a background fo cool guns, and other weapons and spaceships, the realism if which you are not meant to question.

And likewise, the Brothers put lots of philosophical themes into the Matirx. But do not forget their basic stated objective- to make a kung fu vs. robots comic book, and out it on screen instead of a comic. In that respect it is no different a fantasy worl from Star Wars- their themes are told amonst a cool kung-fu background with dreadlocked robots practcing dreadful tactics for the sake of better battles and drama, and an equally literally untenable set-up- humans being used as batteries- to form the baic plot. To question that is to miss the point. That is as far as their reasoning goes- in the future, humans are being used as batteries for machines, it ia a thematic inversion. No-one should be caring about how that works, it is just the basic set-up.

So, no, Mook, it is not relevant.

>Ushgarak "do not forget their basic stated objective- to make a kung fu vs. robots comic book, and out it on screen instead of a comic."

I think that when they said this (where did they say this) they were intentionally downplaying the intellectual aspects of their work. If this was all they were doing, why bother having the actors read rather dense books on philosophy and evolutionary psychology???? I agree that the Star Wars commentary on demoncracy is better than people give it credit for (especially THESE DAYS), but I doubt the Star Wars actors needed to read anything on democracy to understand THEIR movie.

I guess what confused me about this whole battery thing is that unlike light sabers or "loud explosions in space", it is really UNNECESSARY -- people have said that it gives "style", but wouldn't it be just as stylish to hold up a processor/computer chip instead of a battery and call Neo something like "CPU" instead of "Coppertop"??

Therefore, I wonder if there is not some additional plot element, something that we will find out in the game or new Animatrix (if it happens) or whatever. People have pointed out some possibilities...

Biologos> The battery/pod-towers is an allegory. That’s what makes it cool, even if the concept of human body-heat as energy-production is far-fetched. It’s about being slaves of the system, and being “blinded” to said truth.

The One> Nope, energy is ALWAYS conserved (disregarding peculiar temporary quantum effects that’ll have no bearing on this).
What I mean is this: Let’s say I want a cup of tea. I turn on my stove. It uses electricity and transforms it into heat. This heat warms up the water in my kettle, and – voila – I have a hot cup of tea.
But after a while, the tea is cold, as the heat has dispersed into the surroundings, and warmed up my room a fraction of a degree.
The reverse NEVER happens. You’ll never sit with a cold cup of water, and experience the room-temperature drop a fraction of degree, which in turn has warmed up the water in my cup.
By “less” pure I mean chaos has sneaked it’s way into the system (room+cup).

Jetzere> Even if that was the case, you’re still left with “what powers the humans”?

Originally posted by The Omega
Biologos> The battery/pod-towers is an allegory. That’s what makes it cool, even if the concept of human body-heat as energy-production is far-fetched. It’s about being slaves of the system, and being “blinded” to said truth.

The One> Nope, energy is ALWAYS conserved (disregarding peculiar temporary quantum effects that’ll have no bearing on this).
What I mean is this: Let’s say I want a cup of tea. I turn on my stove. It uses electricity and transforms it into heat. This heat warms up the water in my kettle, and – voila – I have a hot cup of tea.
But after a while, the tea is cold, as the heat has dispersed into the surroundings, and warmed up my room a fraction of a degree.
The reverse NEVER happens. You’ll never sit with a cold cup of water, and experience the room-temperature drop a fraction of degree, which in turn has warmed up the water in my cup.
By “less” pure I mean chaos has sneaked it’s way into the system (room+cup).

Jetzere> Even if that was the case, you’re still left with “what powers the humans”?

That was what I said... 🙄

Since the matrix takes place in the future we can't determine what kind of technology that the machines have come up with to transform energy from one form to another. Even though we can't explain this "some form of fusion" now it could be a possibility in the future. We are using what we know now as a basis to try and explain something that is way ahead of our time. Just my two cents.. 🙂

The One> No it wasn't. 🙄

Centinul> Even if it IS the future, that doesn’t mean the machines could run the facility of pods without actually loosing energy. Humans need FOOD to produce the heat. There won’t be enough people dying to supply every pod-human with enough food every single day. So the food must be produced artificially. THAT costs energy. Energy the machines might as well use directly instead.
If they could get more energy out of a system than they supply it with they’re basically breaking the laws of thermodynamics – the machines CAN unscramble eggs.

Originally posted by The Omega
The One> No it wasn't. 🙄

Whatever...nevermind... 🙄

theres one thing but the architect in reloaded said that there were levels of survival they r prepared 4.......maybe they had a backup plan all along and they might even have stored energy in some form or the other......

Ok. I'm now a believer in batteries the same way I believe in Harry Potter's wand, light sabers, and warp speed . 😄

I find it much less satisfying than any of these other examples, but that's life. 😉

For the people who suggest that in the future we are "more advanced" and can get around the second law of thermo: highly unlikely. Not only is the second law the origin of "time's arrow" as Omega pointed out (meaning for example that a broken glass doesn't put itself back together), it is also the basis for ALL of chemistry, which then means that it is the basis for all of LIFE. Your turning a hamburger (or a beer) into useful energy (or fat!) is entirely dictated by this law, as is any other spontaneous process you can come up with (including an animal developing out of a fertilized egg...).

A number of people have pointed out that "machines need people": it is clear that we are supposed to come to the conclusion that the future lies in cooperation between humans and machines, but I'm a bit confused about this. Is there a reason OTHER than energy that the machines need people??? The importance of this interdependence between machines and people is part of the reason I was so confused by the whole battery thing. Archie even states that the machines can get alternative energy sources. So WHY do machines need people??? (I'm sorry if this has been discussed somewhere else...please direct me to the right thread).

The Omega> I'm not saying that they are breaking the second law of thermodynamics by unscrambling eggs. As a side note the funny thing is I"m in thermodynamics right now. Anyways I'm just saying that in the future there may be a way to retrieve this energy more efficiently then there is today. I think that is a definite possibility. We have proven through time that there are more efficient ways of doing things. For example when the first combustion engine was created it wasn't as nearly as efficient as the ones today. Also today we are looking at gas-electric engines which are again more efficient then there predecessors. Again just my two cents. 😱 💃 😛

Don't know if this will help but according to the Animatrix the machines use the following energy of those in the pods;

"Bio-electric, thermal and kinetic energy"

Ushgarak>So, no, Mook, it is not relevant.
i think it is relevant as it is a key concept in the film.
however it is possible to suspend disbelief and/or give the w.bros the benefit of the doubt and just ignore the science of it.

Mook -- It's irrevelant as to the type of energy they are using, because they will ALWAYS be losing energy.

Originally posted by Trinity_Matrix
Mook -- It's irrevelant as to the type of energy they are using, because they will ALWAYS be losing energy.

perhaps, but i wanted to clarify exactly what type of energy they are using.

Bioslogos> Maybe, just maybe, the Machines don't need people for electricity but enslaved humanity merely in self-defense, and they wanted to keep their creators around until they learned their lesson and became willing to stop fighting. Maybe the Machines didn't want revenge, but merely to be allowed the right to exist.

Originally posted by sum1butno1
Bioslogos> Maybe, just maybe, the Machines don't need people for electricity but enslaved humanity merely in self-defense, and they wanted to keep their creators around until they learned their lesson and became willing to stop fighting. Maybe the Machines didn't want revenge, but merely to be allowed the right to exist.

that would make more sense.

in the animatrix the scorching of the sky doesn't seem to affect the machines too much and as the Architect says the machines CAN live without man.

so maybe they are using the "Bio-electric, thermal and kinetic energy" because it is available from the people in pods, but the main reason is to enslave man in the matrix so that the machines can exist.

Originally posted by sum1butno1
Bioslogos> Maybe, just maybe, the Machines don't need people for electricity but enslaved humanity merely in self-defense, and they wanted to keep their creators around until they learned their lesson and became willing to stop fighting. Maybe the Machines didn't want revenge, but merely to be allowed the right to exist.

sum1butno1 and Mook, I agree -- I like this idea a lot! I'm not sure if there is any additional evidence for it, but it would add depth to the "war" issue, and would be an interesting way for the plot to progress...

Originally posted by BioLogos
sum1butno1 and Mook, I agree -- I like this idea a lot! I'm not sure if there is any additional evidence for it, but it would add depth to the "war" issue, and would be an interesting way for the plot to progress...

🙂

yeah, do you have any direct quotes from the films that relate to this?

Not really in the full-length movies, but there is a bit in the Animatrix which could support this. In the Second Renaissance part I, B166ER's testamony states that he "simply did not want to die." Also, it mentions the fact that some humans were supportive of justice toward the machines, which could be a redeeming feature for humanity, in the minds of the machines.
As well, the machines did have some respect for the humans for a time, as shown near the end when 01 tried to join the UN.

In Part II, the narrator says "May there be mercy on man and machine for their sins" just before the humans "scorch the skies". This seems like an indication that they will have a chance to redeem themselves (though it may merely be alluding to the movies we all know and love).
Also, when the new 01 "ambassador" signs the treaty, it says "Your flesh is a relic, a mere vessel. Hand over your flesh, and a new world awaits you. We demand it." Remember the end of Revos? When the Oracle questions the Architect about whether he'll do what he says? "What do you think I am, human?" That seems like an indication that the machines realize that the root of the conflicts among humans is their decieving each other, and that they want to be better than that. Well, this "a new world awaits you" sounds like a genuine offer of a kind of condition of surrender.

However, it does seem that there is more in the Second Renaissance that supports the use of humans as an "endlessly multiplying infinitely renewable energy source". Which, of course, is what this is all about. 😄