May I remind people that we do NOT know that Vader destroyed the Jedi, only that he HELPED the Empire hunt them down. Please get your facts straight.
Harmax, who ever said that Anakin was just run of the mill? Of COURSE he is special, but SO is the Emperor. And just because Vader had, at that ONE moment, the iron willpower needed to take those few steps necessary to throw the Emperor down the chute is, again, NOT proof that his force powers were stronger! If Vader's power WAS stronger, he would not have died in the attempt. Can Vader do lightning? No! Did he plan to take over the Galaxy? No! He's just a thug taking orders.
Is he the Master? No!
More importantly, is he the ultimate villain of the piece? No! THAT is the Emperor. And unless he is the most powerful that makes no sense.
I am afraid I do not see your logic, Harmax. SW is a simple tale., When Vader descroibes his Master as the one he MUST obey, when Yoda gives Luke a warning that clearly makes out the Emperor to be more dangerous than Vader... these are VERY clear indicators.
Anyway, if Vader was better why did he not bump off Sidious ages ago, as GL says he would be trying to do? Why did he need Luke on hise side first?
just wanna comment about why some say vader is stronger, they say is coz the midichlorians , they say he has "the most midichlorian count ever, even more than master yoda" but remember they never ever say he has more than palpatine
palpatine is the emperor he has power and not just because he is evil , the force must be strong with him, so strong he can make himself seem like a normal person. he can fool around jedis 1 feet away not letting them sense him, he must be very strong with the force to make that happen.
so does palpatien has a higher midichlorian count than vader, we dont know but they must be close to each other. vader maybe the ONE from the prophecy but that doesn´t mean he is the strongest, he is just the ONE who will bring balance to the force, and hi did.
Hey Ush,
I'll reply to all your points systematically starting with your last : this will be long but PLEASE bear with me :
1. Vader didn't consider destroying the emperor earlier because he would have to have a right hand just as he was right hand to the emperor - the sith are always two - a master and an apprentice, no more no less. And Luke turned out, for Vader, to be the ideal person to be his apprentice / right hand - his own son, genetically strong with the force etc.etc... and in ESB, easier to convert because he had not achieved mastery yet. In fact, UNTIL Luke came on the scene, there WAS no one strong enough with the force,who Vader could consider taking on as a right hand / apprentice.
2. Vader saying I MUST obey my master does not neccessarily amount to an admission of inferiority - that's just one interpretation of that line - the thing is, the emperor provided Vader with the armour, and the special breathing system, and taught him the ways of the sith - and Vader, so to speak him, owed him one. But the whole line is : " You don't know the power of the dark side, I must obey my master ", which is in reply to Luke trying to reconvert his father - I read this to mean : " I will not turn back, the dark side is stronger and more desirable ( something that you don't know about ), and I continue to follow the one who taught me it's ways. " - it does NOT amount to saying " I follow the emperor because he's more powerful than me, and I have no choice. "
3. Similarly, Yoda said : " Luke, beware of the emperor - do not underestimate his powers or suffer your father's fate you will " -
this simply means : " The emperor is a cunning sith lord - do not be overconfident of your capacities, as your father was in his inexperience, or you too will fall to the dark side." - it does NOT mean : " Be more careful of the emperor than Vader - Vader you can still handle, but the emperor is much more powerful."
4. Admittedly the ultimate villain of the piece is the emperor, not Vader : but again, why should THAT make him more powerful : all it means is he's the main baddy of the Star Wars saga - that does NOT automatically qualify him to become the most powerful with the force.
5. Vader can't shoot lightening from his hands : but then the emperor does not wield a lightsabre - and the point is that inspite of being badly beaten AND having his hand destroyed, and plus not exactly in the prime of his life, Vader still had enough to absorb the emperor's lightening bolts and kill him; WITHOUT USING HIS LIGHTSABRE; in his injured state with his hand cut off, the lightening bolts he absorbed were enough to kill him, like the proverbial last straw -again, he did not die on the spot; and if he hadn't chosen to have his helmet removed on the death star, he would have probably lived even longer than what he did, before he died ( hypothetically assuming the death star didn't blow up)
the point is; an uninjured Vader, in his prime, with lightsabre, and having all his awesome strength, would definitely be powerful enough to withstand whatever lightening the emperor dished out, and kill him.
6. It's not about Vader having " iron willpower " for just "one moment"; the reason Vader never attacked the emperor, is because he was on the same team. But the moment he saw his son being tortured and killed before his eyes, his love for his son reawakened the good in him; and then he was no longer on the same team as the man who was torturing and killing his son; at that point, he just destroyed the emperor; it was that simple; of all the jedi, including Yoda, the one jedi the emperor couldn't beat was Vader - the thing is Vader, had the power to destroy the emperor at any time he wanted - he never attempted to do it because he was with the dark side of the force and therefore on the same side as the emperor; and plus there was no one he could take as his apprentice, even if he DID kill the emperor, and the sith HAVE to be two at all times no more no less.
But the moment he DID have a reason to destroy palpatine, he did and there was nothing palpatine could do to stop him. This would have been the case at any time Vader actually chose to attack Palpatine, not just at that moment; the only significance of that particular moment is, that at that exact time, Vader decided he HAD to destroy the man who was about to kill his son. That was the FIRST moment that Vader had any reason to fight and destroy Palpatine.
7. To Jedi Fernando: The highest midiclorean count, and being concieved by the will of force itself are not ordinary facts to be glossed over : it is highly significant, and in TPM " more than even yoda "; and " more than any jedi "; are also highly significant; it's the way that GL is trying to convey that Anakin/Vader is uniquely powerful in a special way with the force that NO one else including Yoda is and that is why of ALL the people, including Yoda, ONLY Vader had the power to kill Palpatine; that negates the idea that Vader killed Palpatine only luckily with the surprise element, just so that an ancient prophecy could be fulfilled.
8. Furthermore, just plain common sense : the chosen one who will be bring balance to the force ( i.e. destroy a certain sith lord, who supreme jedi master yoda couldn't even detect for a decade let alone alone destroy ) is one uniquely more powerful with the force than anyone else, with the highest midiclorean count, concieved by the will of the force itself;
it's that simple;
9. The fact is : with all his power, the emperor couldn't fully eliminate the good in Anakin Skywalker; and furthermore, he did not realize that Vader still had good in him; the point I want to make is philosophical : This is, at the root, a story of the power and force of good vs. the power and force of evil; and the thematic cornerstone of Lucas' story is that good is, as a law of nature, more powerful than evil, just as fire is warm, ice, cold etc.etc. and the "force" of the SW movies, is in balance, only when the light side or the good side is dominant ( you quoted Lucas having said this on another thread, which I totally agree with ), and NOT in balance when the dark side is dominant; this clearly means that the true nature of the force is inherently GOOD, and that the dark side is much like an abberation in it's nature; now Anakin is born and concieved of the will of the force; that means at the core he is INHERENTLY good, and that is why the emperor, with all his awesome dark power couldn't drive it from him fully; and that is why Anakin HAS to be stronger than the emperor, because, born of the will of the force, symbolically in Lucas' story he represents the good side/light side of the force, which is ALWAYS more powerful and the TRUE nature of the force, than the dark side, which is an ABBERATION in the force, that causes imbalance in the force, represented symbolically by the character of the emperor. Naturally the one who brings balance to the force ( i.e. the representative of the light side of the force ) is more powerful than the one who brings imbalance ( i.e. the representative of the dark side of the force ) -
to repeat .... the reason why the emperor couldn't drive the good from Anakin fully, was because Anakin was born of the will of the force, and as such was representative of the true nature of the force, i.e. good and thus was at his core, good; and that is precisely why Anakin was more powerful than Palpatine; because the light side is inherently stronger than the dark side, good stronger than evil / dark side which Palpatine represents.
Not to understand or accept this would be to miss the whole message and central point of the Star Wars saga, I think.
That last point of yours is nonsense. The Light Side is NOT stronger than the Dark Side. It is a matter of Balance, they are equal. THAT is the fundamental point of the films!!! D'uh! How many toimes do we have to quote GL saying that about Balance? You totally misread the quote I said before. BOTH THE SAME. The sides have to be the SAME.
Similar sloppy thinking infests all your points. Vader isn;t waiting for Luke just so he can have an apprentice. Vader clearly does not think he can destroy the Emperor, othewrwise he would not have told Luke that HE could do it. Again, SW is a simple story, don;t read too much into that line; he meant that Luke COULD kill the Emperor as opposed top Vader himself who could npt. That he was wrong is neither here nor there, because that's the Prophecy operating again.
You say Vader saying that he MUST obey his Master can only be interpretd to mean the Emperor is too pwoerful; that is you over-analyzing. SIMPLIFY! All your points are FAR too complex for Star Warsl This line is a DIRECT reference to Palpatine's superior power.
Talking of simplification... when you have a Master and an Apprentice in a film like this, it is OBVIOUS which one is more powerful! This isn't a political intrigue piece! Take it as read!
Which is the same reason why the ULTIMATE villain IS more powerful than Vader. Introduced in ROTJ to show that there is more powerful than Vader out there. It is shown that the Imperials fear the Emperor even more than Vader. The semi-canon novels make it PERFECTLY clear that the Emperor is more powerful than Vader. This represents official confirmation that proves you wrong. You will need hard evidence to convince me otherwise.
And I have never understood why you use the fact the the script notes have the Emperor humilating Vader not used as evidence that Vader is stronger. The Jerjerrod rivalry ploline was removed for time reasons, nothing else. But those notes are a VERY clear picture of GL's thought aboput the charatcer of the Emperor- a far far FAR more powerful being!
Likewise, Yoda's line, which you quote wrong, is so obviously a warning that the Emperor is more powerful than anything that Luke has faced before that I again say that only mindless worship of Vader would make you think otherwise.
BTW, GL's comments on the nature of the Sith make it clear that Vader WOULD have taken out the Emperor before if he could. The only reason for him not to have done was that he couldn't.
Meanwhile, how do you know that Sidious has no Lightsabre? That seems quite an assumption. And there was nothing cunnng or clever in the way Vader killed the Emperor- he just the him down a shaft. You don't need power for that, just the will to stay alive, and the situation created in which it was possible- the Prophecy strikes again. Why you thnk that the surprise of it all 'negates' the Prophecy is beyond me. But can you please tell me what amazing power Vader exhibited to kill the Emperor? Huh? No, because he DIDN'T. He just picked him up and threw him down. Vader's enormous power was irrelevant to that situation.
As to your final point., it is, of course, true that the Emperor could not eliminate all of Anakin' good; that is rather the heroic basis of the whole saga. But you having misconstrued GL's comments to think that the Light Side is stronger ruins your whooe point.
What was stronger was the father-son bond; the general heroism of the good guys, and the 'antithesis of symbiosis' that is the Sith, to quote GL.
So your accusation of us missing the fundamental point is hysterical in its inaccuracy because you are the one who has totally mis-read it all. The entire set-up for the story is that Palpatine IS more powerful- but his superior power availed him nothing! Same thing that happened to Maul, really.
harmax
it seem that you assume too much.
you assumed palpatine has no sabre, well we dont know that for sure.
you assumed vader couldn´t use force lightning, we don´t know that, although its very probable coz if he could he would´ve used it coz its more powerful.
you
you assumed vader was waitin for luke to turn to the dark side to be able to kill the emperor.
you assumed that anaking being conceived by the force he had the highest midichlorian count, but it´s not necessarily true , he can have just the amount necessary to bring balance to the force. Palpatien could´ve have the same higher or less and it seems like we´ll never know.
i want to make my point of view about vader killing the emperor. if he wanted to take out b4 the emperor he would´ve at least tried already, but he didn´t coz he was in the same team. but also he was the apprentice and he had to obey his master, like the padawans must over their master. its like if you are in a football team it doesn´t matter if you are the best or the mvp you must obey your team capt or the QB because he is in charge and he is the captain and you don´t attack him because he is on your same team.
Darth Sidious WAS afraid Luke.
Vader didn't want to kill Sidious because he needed an apprentice. He wanted to wait for Luke to mature before converting him. Sidious may have known more . . . but Vader could've killed him quickly. All he would have to do, is turn on his lightsaber and take one cut at Sidious . . . and WALLA! Darth Vader would be the new Emperor. One other thing . . . Sidious is afraid of Luke because he knew that Luke would bring his downfall.
vader wasnt waiting for luke to mature, he just couldn´t find him.esb is all about capturing "the young skywalker". vader tried to convert him in to the dark side in esb remember???? it went something like this "we can rule the galaxy father and son". when luke said no he jumped to the abyss, maybe trying tu suicide himself maybe not, but must probable of all he preferred death better than following his dad. after that vader kept looking for him. and actually he never found him, luke delivered himself up.
and darth ninja it is "voila!" not "walla". its french my friend.
this is what i've been saying ALL ALONG!!!!
Both sidious and vader seemed to have wanted luke for their own purposes.
Vader wanted luke so he could overthrow sidious and have an apprentice at same time.
SIdious wanted vader to get luke as a replacement (believing vader wouldn't know).
Sidious makes his intention clear in ROTJ when he knew that vader and luke would have to duke it out. tHe survivor would probably fall to the dark side or at least be manipulated.
ANyways, i realize it has been a theory since the start....but i'm not quite sure what is wrong with the theory.
But the initial point is who do we think is stronger...
arguments have been well argued....in fact i used to think sidious was stronger...but i've been swayed to think it could go either way, and its all up to opinion guys.
i forgot to say
remember that it was vader´s idea to take luke in to the dark side and make him a good ally in esb when speaking to the emperor through the hologram and how the emperor was convinced saying something like "yeaaaaah yeaaaah a powerful ally he could be" i think.
so it was all vader thinking to join with his son and be master and apprentice and rule the universe. The emperor and vader at the beginning just wanted him dead coz he was a threat but vader convinced the emperor to turn him to the dark side.
Ush :
1. The light side IS stronger than the dark side : Luke asks Yoda is ESB, if the dark side is stronger, and Yoda replies that it is not, only quicker, easier and more seductive. Of course, you could theoretically argue that he did not say the light side was stronger either, but the tone of that particular conversation is pretty clear : Luke is asking which is stronger, and Yoda is replying that it is the light side : the dark side is just the easier road.
2. I think I have a valid point in stating that Vader did not kill the emperor, because he needed an apprentice himself; the sith code : 2 no more no less. When he did find a potential apprentice in Luke, he did tell him that Luke had the power to kill the emperor : here, it is you who are interpreting this to mean that Vader found the emperor too powerful for him, but felt that Luke had the power to kill him; but again, this is just your interpretation of that line; Vader could have many other reasons for not wanting to kill the emperor himself; he learnt the ways of the dark side from the emperor, he was given a battle armour by the emperor which kept him alive etc. etc. And for these same reasons, and plus the fact that he had given himself over to the dark side he said to Luke in ROJT : I must obey my master, and follow the dark side which I find to be stronger.
3. I do not think I am uneccessarily complicating things : in fact I think I've pretty much hit the heart of the matter when I say that the fundamental basis of the Star Wars story is the victory and power of good over evil : It's been made pretty clear in the movies that the true nature of the force is the lightside / good side, the dark side is much like an abberation. I feel it is you who are complicating matters by interpreting the " balance to the force " statement to mean that the light side and dark side are equal.
I have never read anywhere, any comments by Lucas to indicate that the light side and the dark side are equally powerful, and if you say that he has, and such an interview is available on the web anywhere, than please point me the link.
4. Palpatine - Vader's relationship is not that of a master to an apprentice - Vader is NOT an apprentice, he is himself a master -
If you want me to take it as I read it, than Palpatine has referred to Vader as " friend " on more than one occassion : something that he never did with Maul, whom he specifically referred to as " apprentice "; Vader still mantains respect for Palpatine by referring to him as " Master ", because he learnt the sith ways from him, but that does not diminish his own stature.
As an example, I may learn piano from a master, and achieve mastery at least equal if not more than the one who taught me; but even so I will still refer to him as my guru, because he is the one who taught me. But that does not mean I have not achieved the same level of power or more.
5. As for the lightsabre, the only weapon we have seen Darth Sidious use upto now is dark force lightening; there are no indications from any source that he is going to use any other weapon in AOTC. I haven't read EU, or other ' extra movie ' star wars literature, and I think that the movies come before the books in clarifying such points of debate, but even if you take the books etc. into account, I'm pretty sure that he hasn't used any other weapons in there either; so until Ep.3 comes out, you can't fault me for assuming that Palpatine uses NO other weapons aside of dark side lightening, and other sundry force tricks. In single combat therefore, I don't see what Palpatine would do to stop Vader from decapitating him, because force lightening and force tricks would NOT be enough against Vader.
That is why I state that Vader refers to Palpatine in terms of "master" and "obey", out of respect / reverence, NOT out of a sense of inferiority or fear.
It IS true that Palpatine achieved his aims, entirely by manipulation, trickery, and other such underhand tricks. Up until ep.3 nobody even knows he is Darth Sidious; this is in reply to your question why nobody destroyed him before, if chopping him down with a lightsabre was all there was to it. I know it is too early to speculate on Ep.3 yet, but I'm pretty much sure that by the time he IS found out, he has a converted Darth Vader in his prime to defend him from and destroy the remaining jedi knights that survive ep.2. Palpatine could never have managed to do what he did without the help of masters like Dooku and Vader; not exactly what we would expect from one who is so omnipotently powerful that he is even greater than the one conceived by the will of the force itself, with the highest midichlorean count of all including Yoda.
6. Vader did not exhibit any special powers to defeat the emperor; exactly; he did not even USE his lightsabre; he had just been badly beaten up, and had his arm chopped off; still he picked up the emperor, absorbed the lightening and dropped him down the chute; it's as simple as that; but his enormous power was not irrelevant to the situation as you say; it was precisely because of his enormous power ( or what was left of it by that time ), that he could kill the emperor so simply. : Vader could have done it at any time he chose; and being more powerful with the force than anyone else, he had the power to do this : it's just he had firstly, no reason to, as he was on the same team, and secondly, he had no one who he could take as an apprentice - 2 no more no less.
How am I complicating things by stating this ?
To jedifernando :
1. I am not assuming that Anakin was concieved by the will of the force and has the highest midichlorean count of all : that's what has been said in the movie. And I don't think this is something unimportant, I think it is a highly significant point : especially the line " More than even Yoda " : because we do know that the supreme jedi master could not defeat Palpatine for whatever the reasons, reasons which will become clear in Ep.3.
And, to make things really simple : Palpatine vs. Vader DID happen, unlike Maul vs. Vader, an imaginary contest open to speculation; score : Vader 1, Palpy : 0; so as you like to say, why are we trying to read complex things into this, that it was lucky, or just a fulfillment of prophecy etc. etc. ? the stronger man won, that's all there is to it.
Anyway, as Phanekim says, you and I could argue this thing artfully on forever - so let's beg to differ and leave it at that.
But I'm pretty sure that it's not some thoughtless fan worship of Vader that leads me to argue this way.
Hopefully AOTC and especially Ep.3 will clear up these arguments one way or the other.
harmax:
in the movies they never say anakin was conceived by the Force itself, they just imply it and let you think so. and even if he was conceived by the force (very probable) that does´nt mean he has a highest midichlorian count than palpatine, we dont know anything from palpatine´s backround, parents nor midichlorian count.
and vader vs palpatine score 1:0 as you say and how you think its fair to say "the stronger man won" well i believe it was many more factors involved in vader defeating palpatine than just how strong he was. he didn´t defeated just because he was stronger (maybe) but maybe he was a bit cleverer and attacked palpatine when he never expected it (remember he came from the back) and it was also palpatine´s fault like many of you say coz he never really cleared the good out of anakin. i personally believe that the extra push or the extra card the Force played was luke, and without luke anakin would´ve never defeated palpatine coz he never would´ve realized there was still good on him and looking the practical ways , palpatine was so concentrated in his hatred for luke when lightning him that he never saw vader coming.
when you say that vader could´ve pick the emperor up and kill him or which ever other way he wanted but killed the emperor whenever he wanted i think thats a point we certainly will never know. I personally think he didn´t , i believe he needed that extra push luke gave him emotionally to look inside him and find a better and deeper reason to kill the emperor. When he actually killed him he killed him coz of love and the power of love in all its ways(love for his son particularly). if he would´ve tried killing him earlier he would´ve tried to kill him with hatre and anger (coz he would´ve wanted to get rid of him to become the real master and he would´ve hated the fact there was palpatine in his way) and I believe that the master on that matter was palpatine himself and he would´ve not been defeated by vader.
anyway i believe in your point #4. had to admit it.
as to the light side being stronger that´s a very problematic issue, i believe it is stronger but coz the way it works and what it accomplishes and the darkside is the easier way and is stronger in manyother ways. both have their advantages and handicaps. the lightside workds for the force and for the benefit of the whole universe and being the force its ally it will win( remember yoda saying the force being a powerful ally), and the darkside works by its own benefit and its doomed to be defeated. and therefore tha balance we all talk about and you don´t like.
Ok, look, I am obviously not going to convince you that Sidious is stronger- though if you read th script notes for ROTJ, I do not think you will be left in any doubt that GL designed the Emperor as a conceptually more powerful being than Vader. However, I do feel bound to correct your inaccuracies.
Here is a telling quote- opne of many that George Lucas has made about good and evil in Star Wars.
"Let me explain briefly. If good and evil are mixed things become blurred - there is nothing between good and evil, everything is grey. In each of us we have balance these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything. It is dangerous to lose this."
Anakin restores the balance between the Force by preventing the Sith from making the Dark Side dominant, see? But it has to be black AND white. Not just white. That's imbalance in the other direction.
GL even tells us that:
"The mystery around [the chosen one] theory is that we don't know yet whether the chosen one is a good or bad person. He is to bring balance to the Force; but at this point, we don't know what side of the Force needs to be balanced out."
The fact that the Light Side could poddinly need balancing shows the importance of having both sides of equal power.
Good and evil must be equally balanced, you see? Nothing is stronger than the other in these symbiotic things George Lucas is describing. It's all part of thre Taoist inspiration for his films.
So Yoda was just dismissing the APPARENT greater strength of the Dark Side, not actually saying the Light Side is stronger.
It's odd, you know, because normally we have to persuade people that it isn't the Dark Side that is stronger!
Oh, Vader IS Palpatine's Apprentice. Otherwise he wouldn't call him Master. That Vader is himself a Master I do not dispute, but so is Dooku, and he is still Sidious' apprentice in AOTC. It's just relative terminology; the junior Sith is always called the apprentice. We have any number of GL quotes that show that.
Also, I think we can be pretty sure that Vader couldn't have just offed the Emperor whenever he likes as that rather detracts from the drama of it all.
And I still don't see how Vader demonstrated anything other than willpower in killing the Emperor.
Oh, just spotted the other thread open about this. I guess we had better continue in there.