Hulk vs. Doomsday

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
That would only be the case if Doomsday is totally impervious to damage, which he may or may not be.

This is the sole reason why this thread has been so inconclusive.

However, Doomsday is one of superman's highest level rouges, making him (in my opinion) a higher calibur powerhouse than your everyday Hulk.

It depends on the incarnation of either combatant, but in most cases, Doomsday would win.

Sigh... The Hulk ain't what he used to be.

For all purposes he is impervious, if there is no way to destroy him(as it seemed last I heard.), if he can only be imprisoned somewhere/time only to return, and can resurrect from any death..

If he cannot be killed the same way twice, it's unknown what the hulk can do since all he uses is physical dmg. I'm not sure about the comparison with superman while superman's strength does not increase, I think not sure, his strength is supposed to equal the maximum possible limit of strength.

Originally posted by En Sabah Nur X
For all purposes he is impervious, if there is no way to destroy him(as it seemed last I heard.), if he can only be imprisoned somewhere/time only to return, and can resurrect from any death..

If he cannot be killed the same way twice, it's unknown what the hulk can do since all he uses is physical dmg. I'm not sure about the comparison with superman while superman's strength does not increase, I think not sure, his strength is supposed to equal the maximum possible limit of strength.

Strength (in general) has a maximum limit?

Superman starts stronger than pretty much everyone, AND increases with stress.

Originally posted by Juntai
Superman starts stronger than pretty much everyone, AND increases with stress.

Yeah, but how strong has he proven to be under stress?

Besides, the whole stress=strength thing is pretty new, and the effects aren't quite clear.

Anyway, that's beside the point. Superman's level of strength isn't the maximum level attainable. He has fought people who are stronger than him in the past, so to say that his strength is supreme is a paradox.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Yeah, but how strong has he proven to be under stress?

Besides, the whole stress=strength thing is pretty new, and the effects aren't quite clear.

Anyway, that's beside the point. Superman's level of strength isn't the maximum level attainable. He has fought people who are stronger than him in the past, so to say that his strength is supreme is a paradox.

yeah, that's why I said I thought but was not sure. It was here, I think, I heard another poster say how supes was strength capped by DC but was still pretty much classed as having the most strength possible in DC, and that was the reason why he could go head on with guys like darkseid. Of course, I may be recalling erroneously, and/or the poster was BSing.

Originally posted by Mindship
First off, moving the moon is not a matter of overcoming gravity, it is a matter of overcoming inertia, still an impressive feat.

all metter with density produces a gravitational force. The reason the moon stays where it is in space, gravity.

if you wanted to move the moon, you not only have to stop its ridiculous momentum, but you would have to break it from the Earth's gravitational field. Gravitational force is the weakest of most forces, so its likely that this is the lowest variable in my "move the moon equation"

it requires more strength (thrust) to stop a moving body in a vaccum, but then to move it, you are breaking the gravitational bonds that the moon has with the earth, or you arent moving it

Originally posted by Mindship

Putting the asteroid incident aside for the moment, Hulk has not moved any celestial bodies because given that he doesn't have any "flight strength," he can't be put in the position of doing so, not without some really GAB PIS. This does not necessarily mean, however, that if given some kind of cosmic leverage/bracing, the Hulk still couldn't do it even in theory. Given what the Hulk has (supposidly) been able to do (ie, that asteroid thingie), he would appear to have the potential to match Superman's feats (provided he gets mad enough), using not flight-strength but muscle power, which, again, is not what Superman used to move the moon. This of course then begs the question: using just muscle power, could Superman still have moved the moon?

stopping a moving rock the size of the moon on earth would prove to be signifigantly easier than in space. Both the gravity of the earth and friction would stop it by itself. the fact that superman is versitile enough to do this is more than enough to prove my point without a direct reference to strength

superman outclasses the hulk 9/10, and DD beats superman.

even though both hulk and DD are tank fighters, DD is way more durable and basically has an immunity to physical attacks at this point.

Originally posted by Mindship

DD vs Hulk could go either way, provided on how the fight is set up. You wanna talk arm-wrestling, weight-lifting or some other pure-strength feat--then Hulk wins.

a weightlifting contest isnt a fight

Originally posted by inamilist
all metter with density produces a gravitational force. The reason the moon stays where it is in space, gravity.

if you wanted to move the moon, you not only have to stop its ridiculous momentum, but you would have to break it from the Earth's gravitational field. Gravitational force is the weakest of most forces, so its likely that this is the lowest variable in my "move the moon equation"

it requires more strength (thrust) to stop a moving body in a vaccum, but then to move it, you are breaking the gravitational bonds that the moon has with the earth, or you arent moving it

stopping a moving rock the size of the moon on earth would prove to be signifigantly easier than in space. Both the gravity of the earth and friction would stop it by itself. the fact that superman is versitile enough to do this is more than enough to prove my point without a direct reference to strength

superman outclasses the hulk 9/10, and DD beats superman.

even though both hulk and DD are tank fighters, DD is way more durable and basically has an immunity to physical attacks at this point.

a weightlifting contest isnt a fight

I don't think thats the way it works...

If DD dies by getting his head ripped off at the shoulders one time by a physical attack that doesn't mean that he can't have his heart torn out by a physical force the next time and his lungs the next...his brains the next...Etc...

Originally posted by inamilist
all metter with density produces a gravitational force. The reason the moon stays where it is in space, gravity.

You mean there's matter w/o density?
inertia, the tendency of matter to remain at rest, if already at rest, or, if moving, to keep moving in the same direction, unless affected by some outside force.
Yes, the moon is where it is because of the Earth's gravitational field. The orbiting motion gives the moon momentum. Moving the moon, however (changing the direction of its momentum) brings in the factor of inertia. That's why this is the main force Superman had to overcome in moving the moon. As you say below, "Gravitational force is the weakest of most forces"--actually, by far the weakest of the four fundamental forces--"so its likely that this is the lowest variable..." Following your own reasoning, then inertia--a factor in changing momentum--would be the main force to overcome in moving the moon, not gravity. You even realize this yourself, below.

Originally posted by inamilist
if you wanted to move the moon, you not only have to stop its ridiculous momentum, but you would have to break it from the Earth's gravitational field. Gravitational force is the weakest of most forces, so its likely that this is the lowest variable in my "move the moon equation"

Thank you.
This is why moving objects in Earth orbit (eg, Hubble telescope) is difficult. In space they are weightless, but not massless, hence, again, inertia--changing momentum--is the force to overcome.

Originally posted by inamilist
stopping a moving rock the size of the moon on earth would prove to be signifigantly easier than in space. Both the gravity of the earth and friction would stop it by itself. the fact that superman is versitile enough to do this is more than enough to prove my point without a direct reference to strength

Friction with what? The air? The moon headed for the Earth, or grazing it, has so much mass, in relation to our thin envelope of atmosphere that friction would not be a significant factor in stopping it. Heck, the air doesnt even stop large asteroids (just ask the dinosaurs). Also, the above proves nothing about whether or not the Hulk--made angry enough and braced--could move the moon. As for Superman being more versatile: thanks for reminding us of the obvious.

Originally posted by inamilist
superman outclasses the hulk 9/10, and DD beats superman.

"Outclasses" is vague and subjective. Better to have said, Superman beat the Hulk. But this does not necessarily mean Superman is ultimately stronger than (Savage) Hulk.

Originally posted by inamilist
even though both hulk and DD are tank fighters, DD is way more durable and basically has an immunity to physical attacks at this point.

Definitly something to consider, but likely open to writer whim. And again, not sure it works that way.

Originally posted by inamilist
a weightlifting contest isnt a fight

Good thing I clarified that myself <whew>. At least we agree here.

Originally posted by Mindship
You mean there's matter w/o density?
inertia, the tendency of matter to remain at rest, if already at rest, or, if moving, to keep moving in the same direction, unless affected by some outside force.
Yes, the moon is where it is because of the Earth's gravitational field. The orbiting motion gives the moon momentum. Moving the moon, however (changing the direction of its momentum) brings in the factor of inertia. That's why this is the main force Superman had to overcome in moving the moon. As you say below, "Gravitational force is the weakest of most forces"--actually, by far the weakest of the four fundamental forces--"so its likely that this is the lowest variable..." Following your own reasoning, then inertia--a factor in changing momentum--would be the main force to overcome in moving the moon, not gravity. You even realize this yourself, below.

in fact, i realized this in my first post regarding gravity and inertia of the moon. i believe i called inertia Y and gravity Z

my point is to state that, out of the three things mainly involved, hulk probably couldn't do any of them, even if they were reduced into a straight 'lift' scenario. The gravititational pull of the earth on the moon HAS to be well higher than the energy equiveliance required to lift 150 billion tonnes, or else the moons own inertia, which as you have described is increadable, and its mass, also increadable, would pull the moon out of orbit (in fact, it has a tendency to do this at a rate of some inches a year)

(BTW, lots of matter without density. well, it gets into what you consider matter, but im sure you are up on theoretical physics, yes?)

Originally posted by Mindship

Thank you.
This is why moving objects in Earth orbit (eg, Hubble telescope) is difficult. In space they are weightless, but not massless, hence, again, inertia--momentum--is the force to overcome.

a force. you also fail to realize that a good portion of inertia is CAUSED BY GRAVITY, but your gr 9 science text book will tell you this.

Originally posted by Mindship

Friction with what? The air? The moon headed for the Earth, or grazing it, has so much mass, in relation to our thin envelope of atmosphere that friction would not be a significant factor in stopping it. Heck, the air doesnt even stop large asteroids (just ask the dinosaurs). Also, the above proves nothing about whether or not the Hulk--made angry enough and braced--could move the moon. As for Superman being more versatile: thanks for reminding us of the obvious.

lol, meant to take this out too 😛

air compared to space has a much greater degree of density causing friction.

i re- read this, im not sure if i explained myself properly.

on earth, to STOP an object in motion it takes less energy than to stop an object moving in space.

i think that is all that i meant to say, what i had written before was very misleading and confusing

(BTW, the speed of a meteriorite is HEAVILY decreased as it enters the atmosphere and travels through the air)

Originally posted by Mindship

"Outclasses" is vague and subjective. Better to have said, Superman beat the Hulk. But this does not necessarily mean Superman is ultimately stronger than (Savage) Hulk.

Hulk has never shown a feat on par with anything described in what would be required to move the moon

so unless we get to just "make up" events in comics, hulk is not as strong as superman

Originally posted by Mindship

Definitly something to consider, but likely open to writer whim.

writer whim is irrevelant

we are trying to eliminate the biases/financial concerns of a creative team

Originally posted by godking
Hulk has a 50 % chance against DOS Doomsday

Would be killed quickly against Hunter Prey Doomsday

Would beat Doomsday who has intelligence

Would not stand a snowballs chance in hell against Gog wars Doomsday.

Always the way I saw this fight though I might give him the nod against DOS Doomsday. Superman would not have been killed if he had started the fight with DD giving his all. Supes didn't even get serious until they got to Metropolis and he was already banged up.

Originally posted by inamilist
in fact, i realized this in my first post regarding gravity and inertia of the moon. i believe i called inertia Y and gravity Z
my point is to state that, out of the three things mainly involved, hulk probably couldn't do any of them, even if they were reduced into a straight 'lift' scenario. The gravititational pull of the earth on the moon HAS to be well higher than the energy equiveliance required to lift 150 billion tonnes, or else the moons own inertia, which as you have described is increadable, and its mass, also increadable, would pull the moon out of orbit (in fact, it has a tendency to do this at a rate of some inches a year)
(BTW, lots of matter without density. well, it gets into what you consider matter, but im sure you are up on theoretical physics, yes?)

a force. you also fail to realize that a good portion of inertia is CAUSED BY GRAVITY, but your gr 9 science text book will tell you this.

(BTW, the speed of a meteriorite is HEAVILY decreased as it enters the atmosphere and travels through the air)

Hulk has never shown a feat on par with anything described in what would be required to move the moon

so unless we get to just "make up" events in comics, hulk is not as strong as superman

writer whim is irrevelant

we are trying to eliminate the biases/financial concerns of a creative team

Someone had posted earlier about the Hulk punching/smashing an asteroid twice the size of the Earth. I personally have not seen this comic, but in deference I am giving the poster the benefit of the doubt. Could be a mistake on my part, I dunno. If it is, and the best the Hulk has done is the mountain thing, then, yes, moon-moving far outdoes his best feat. Though Hulkophiles would probably still argue (and perhaps rightly so) that, given enough anger, Hulk could still theoretically do it.

(Matter w/o density? Wouldn't that mean matter w/o mass? Perhaps you know something I don't. The closest I could think of are neutrinos, but now even these are suspected to have some mass, perhaps part of the universe's "dark matter"😉.

Latest theories also suggest inertia may be caused by the electromagnetic "drag" of the quantum vacuum (it's been a long time since I was in 9th grade wink3)

The speed of a meteor is decreased, absolutely, by air friction and does even stop the smaller ones. IMO, it wouldn't stop the moon, though.

Writer whim should be irrelevant, no question about this. But as you are aware, I'm sure, writers often don't do their homework, or want to put their own spin on a character, or simply don't care.

This all appears to hinge on what one considers the Hulk's strength limit. Supposedly it is "limitless." If this is the case, then certainly moving the moon would be theoretically possible for him, and DD has a tougher time defeating him. But if Greenskin's best feat is "just" with the mountain (and I imagine Hulk experts would know this better than I), then, yes, Hulk is "outlcassed" by Superman and likely DD.

EVERYONE GO TO THE CLOSED THREAD BELOW NOWWWWWWWWWWW

Originally posted by Mindship
Someone had posted earlier about the Hulk punching/smashing an asteroid twice the size of the Earth. I personally have not seen this comic, but in deference I am giving the poster the benefit of the doubt. Could be a mistake on my part, I dunno. If it is, and the best the Hulk has done is the mountain thing, then, yes, moon-moving far outdoes his best feat. Though Hulkophiles would probably still argue (and perhaps rightly so) that, given enough anger, Hulk could still theoretically do it.

(Matter w/o density? Wouldn't that mean matter w/o mass? Perhaps you know something I don't. The closest I could think of are neutrinos, but now even these are suspected to have some mass, perhaps part of the universe's "dark matter"😉.

Latest theories also suggest inertia may be caused by the electromagnetic "drag" of the quantum vacuum (it's been a long time since I was in 9th grade wink3)

The speed of a meteor is decreased, absolutely, by air friction and does even stop the smaller ones. IMO, it wouldn't stop the moon, though.

Writer whim should be irrelevant, no question about this. But as you are aware, I'm sure, writers often don't do their homework, or want to put their own spin on a character, or simply don't care.

This all appears to hinge on what one considers the Hulk's strength limit. Supposedly it is "limitless." If this is the case, then certainly moving the moon would be theoretically possible for him, and DD has a tougher time defeating him. But if Greenskin's best feat is "just" with the mountain (and I imagine Hulk experts would know this better than I), then, yes, Hulk is "outlcassed" by Superman and likely DD.

my appologies for the snide remarks, i tried to edit most of them out 😛 i like to troll a bit 😛

and to be honest, i was assuming you had less of a knowledge of physics than it appears you do 😛 i wont argue the matter thing because at its base it becomes a linguistic thing where it is impossible to really define anything so ect....

the outclassed remark refers more to how superman kills the hulk, his speed and mobility and range of abilities just make a tank type character almost useless against him. I personally think it is MIRACULOUS that DD can fight superman considering his speed/flight combo

is superman incapable of lifting doomsday?

Its the fact that Doomsday, who is basically the same type of character as hulk (and for the sake of argument ill say has less strength than hulk) can go one on one with superman and win, even considering the huge disadvantage he is at power wise.

still, this is probably a wicked fight 😛

Originally posted by inamilist
still, this is probably a wicked fight 😛

drunk I'll drink to that.

The Hulk wins this fight easily. Doomsday really is just some crappy ripoff. And Superman was beaten by him, the Grey Hulk With Horns. Superman stronger? Nope! Hulk has bent and destroyed energy in his bare hands, has with one punch broken through a force-field that could change the orbit of a planet and also ripped open Onslaught's armor, among many other feats. Those are way beyond what Superman has done. Superman faster? Yes, but how often does he actually fight at super-speed? Exactly. And Superman doesn't even have the Hulk's regeneration power. Superman will just get more injured as the fight goes on while the Hulk will just get tougher. Superman's eye-beams? From what I've heard even Cyclops's have only annoyed the Hulk. I don't see heat-vision doing any better. It's not the Power Cosmic. And as for Superman having more powers all around? Yes. But I don't see how super-hearing is going to let the Turd of Steel KO Earth's Mightiest Mortal. Superman only won DC VS Marvel because it was a crappy popularity contest. Superman might last 5 minuits if he's fighting the Grey Hulk.

u sir, are not very knoledgable about supermans feats...he lifted 250 quintillion tonnes one handed. hulk braced a 150 billion tonne mountain on his back.
250 quintillion>>>150 billion..
superman is stronger than hulk..

Originally posted by MadMel
u sir, are not very knoledgable about supermans feats...he lifted 250 quintillion tonnes one handed. hulk braced a 150 billion tonne mountain on his back.
250 quintillion>>>150 billion..
superman is stronger than hulk..

superman one million/pre crisis or any other weird incarnation of the man of steel dosent really count.

That was All-Star Superman, and I'm not even sure if it's canon, in fact I'm almost positive it isn't. 🙂

well its just a fully powered superman basically, so he doesnt have to "will" himself to lift stuff, because he's just so powered up, but i have a feeling pre crisis could lift that weight too

Originally posted by Tony Stark
The HULK has taken the whole Avengers+ team on at the same time IM, WM, Herc, Namor, SHE-HULK and the rest of the crew... And did more than hold his own for quite sometime...

I think that any version of The HULK outside of (Grey because he starts too low and dosen't increase fast enough) will beat DD more times than they would lose.

The HULKs strength continues to increase the madder he gets that means LIMITLESS... Where as Superman has a limit to his strength.

The HULK would get madder/stronger everytime he fought him so DD wouldn't (IMO) be able to adjust correctly to his might after each death.

Doomsday is strong and FAST enough to kill Hulk before he reaches the power level of Doomsday.