k well as far as all the rings giving invisiblity it is all specualtion, but i dont beleive they did so. first off, if that was so then why didnt the dwarves realize and maybe even take the ring from bilbo (thinking it might be one of there lost rings). it is true though that a mighty spirit could probably use the ring to make him invisble at will, but as far as the mighty ones were concerned why be invisble when the ring in there hands could do much greater and terrible things. the only power that is for certain was the power of all of them (except the three) to corrupt. and second of all my coment about the elf rings being made to counter the other rings, that was a little presumptious since after the rings were made sauron left to make his, but i feel that celibrimbor was very supicous of sauron (thats why sauron had no hand in making the elf rings like he did the others) so, this is where i am assuming, i think celibrimbor did make the elf rings to counter the others, though most likely at the time he did not realize that the great ring was going to be made.
No, it is NOT speculation about the invisibility. Tolkien has SAID so, in his letter his son printed at the start of the second edition Silmarillion.
"The chief power of all the Rings alike was the prevention of decay... but also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor... and finally, they had other powers, directly derived from Sauron, such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible"
Clear enough for you?
Celebrimbor was not suspicious at all until Sauron put on the One Ring. The Elven Rings are simply those made without Sauron's help, and were successfully hidden from him.
well, i am going to have to check on the invisiblity thing, so i will give that one to you for now but i know celibrimbor was supiticious and once i am able to check my source i will let you know. and lastly i am glad to hear other peoples views and share my own, but i felt you were pretty ignorant in your last post with your "im right your wrong attitude".
The reason I had that attitude, Turin, is because I had said I had gotten my info from Tolkien, and you then said it was a matter of speculation, thus effectively calling me a liar. So check your own attitude before you criticise mine- or better still, properly check your facts.
That I was right and you wrong about the invisibility is simply factual. This has nothing to do with open-mindedness or toleration of views. I gave you the factual answer given by Tolkien himself and no-one has any business rejecting that, any more than you can argue that Aragorn is female and expect people to be 'open-minded'. To call me ignorant for giving out the facts is a breathtakingly weird statement.
I was not trying to be unpleasant, but having invoked Tolkien's name, rather than just calling this my opinion, do you not see you would have annoyed me less saying "Can you actually show what Tolkien said?" instead of saying "That is speculation"?
As for Celebrimbor, let us see what Tolkien has to say again, shall we?
"As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger, [the Elves] were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be master of them, and all they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off their rings. But he, finding that he was betrayed and that the Elves were not deceived, was filled with wrath, and came against them in open war, demanding that all the rings should be delivered to him, since the Elven-smiths could not have attained to their making without his lore and counsel. But the Elves fled from hm, and three of their rings they saved, and bore them away, and hid them."
No mention of suspicions until Sauron wore the Ring. And furthermore:
"Sauron used all his arts upon Celebrimbor and his fellow smiths, who formed a society or brotherhood, very powerful in Eregion, the Gwaith-i-Mirdain; but he worked in secret, unknown to Galadriel and Celeborn [NOTE- Tolkien makes it very clear that Galadriel, Elrond and Gil-Galad were VERY suspicious of the disguised Sauron- but not Celebrimbor]. Before long Sauron had the Gwaith-i-Mirdain under his influence... so great became his hold on the Mirdain that at length he persuaded them to revolt against Galadriel and Celeborn and to seize power in Eregion... now, Celebrimbor was not corrupted in heart or faith, but had accepted Sauron as what he posed to be; and when at length he discovered the existence of the One Ring he revolted against Sauron."
Thus making it clear that Celebrimbor was duped all the way until the existence of the One Ring was revealed. I can find no evidence that he was suspicious beforehand, though feel free to produce some.
DV, most of the decent info is to be found in the appendices to Return of the King, or in the Silmarillion. I am afraid Tolkien never tackled the question of what happened if you were more than one Ring.
wow, i'll hand it to you, you know your tolkien stuff. i guess i am reading more into it then needs be, but why didnt sauron have a hand in the making of the elven rings if celibrimbor was not supsicious? after all it was the elves that sauron desired most to control, so you would think that aiding in the making of the elf rings would be most important to him. yes the elfs were completely fooled by him, except the whole thing about him not helping on the elf rings makes me suspicous of celibrimbors suspicion. and as far as a revolt of celibrimbor against galadriel, where does it say that? i read into it in the silmarilion and it doesnt go into great detail and i dont recall it saying anything about a revolt and do you mean they took up arms against them or just ignored there advice. now just for the sake of argument, back to the rings invisibilty, do you think that even though the dwarven rings had that power they didnt work on the dwarves since it states that the dwarves were more resiliant to the powers of the rings. this just makes more sense to me because if it did make them invisible why didnt they know exactly what bilbo had? plus why wouldnt thror take his with him when he returned to moria, after all being invisible would have atleast got him in past the front doors. and why didnt thrain use it to regain acess to the lonely mtn to at the least recover the arkenstone? just a thought, let me know what you think.
Celebrimbor's revolt is in Unfinished Tales, as is Galadriel's suspicion about Sauron. It was a relatively peaceful coup d-etat; Celeborn and Galadriel were forced to leave (hence them not being in Eregion when Sauron twatted it).
The Elven Rings were still built on the basic precepts that Sauron had taught the Elves, but it just so happened he did not PERSONALLY help build all of them. I cannot find anything more suspicious in it than that.
We have little information over whether the Dwarves actually wore their Rings during the Third Age, or just bore them. All that had them were well aware by that point over how dangerous they were. Whether they would have been literally better off using them to achieve thgeir goals, or whether it would have given them the same immortal curse as it did to the weaker mortal users (i.e. the men) and hence not been worth what they would have gotten them, is a matter for speculation. Personally, I don't think any of the Sauron-tainted Rings could be used for any prolonged purpose that would not have become Sauron's own.
And the Dwarves DID know what Bilbo had... a Magic Ring. If Gandalf wasn't sure if it was more than that, why would the Dwarves be?
well my suspicion is just that those were the most important rings to sauron since he desired most for dominion over elves, so since he didnt oversee there creation that seems odd. now i think it is something tolkien might have overlooked or not thought about but possible maybe tolkien was thinking that either sauron was so arogant and cocky that he felt he had celibrimbor completely under his control and could trust him to make the rings (problem with that is that even if he had that much faith in his control over celibrimbor why didnt he stick around to put his evil into the rings like all the other rings had) and the only other option is that celibrimbor was suspicious. so i hope you can see my point. solely on the lack of information on saurons absence during there construction do i asume that celibrimbor had his suspicions.
now for the dwarves, yes they new bilbo had a magic ring, but they did not know of what sort that ring was. if it was one of the rings of power or just a magic ring (assuming there were other magic rings other than the great rings since i am sure celibrimbor "practiced" making rings) i feel that if they new that the rings of power gave the power of invisiblity then they would have realized bilbo had one of the great rings, the one, or the one of the seven. just a thought. again i am probably making more of something that isnt there, but considering tolkien worked all his life on these stories yet we have such limited resources on the works, i think there is a lot that wasnt told and that makes it fun to speculate on the gaps. wouldnt it be great to be able to take all these questions right to the source!
Sauron desired those Rings most because he did no get his hands on them, that's the only reason. That they were made without his hand is no real proof of Celebrimbor's suspicions, only that he made some himself without aid. How could Sauron have objected to that WITHOUT looking suspicious? "What, you are insisting you help make EVERY ring? Hmmmmmmmmm...."
Where Sauron messed up was in not knowing the Elves would sense his deception so soon and so be able to hide those Three Rings- else he would have gotten them.
I would think the Dwarves would have had very little knowledge of the Rings of Power in general, even Thorin (who was not, of course, the brightest of people). I think they would have just thought that a magic ring was a magic ring, and left it there. Also the One Ring is rather more plain than the other Rings; if Thorin had ever seen his ancestral Ring he probably would not have thought Bilbo's one at all similar.
good point on the dwarven rings, but sauron didnt desire the elven rings the most because those were the only he didnt have but because he disired to have dominion over the elves more than all other peoples (because they were the most powerful) and through those rings he would achieve it. that places an importance on those rings more than the others, hence i would think he would take special care in the making of those rings. if you want me to quote a source on his desire to rule the elves more than others look at what you quoted earlier from the silmarillion and read more in that chapter.
Remember, they were ALL Elven Rings when made, They only became not Elven when Sauron handed them out when he grabbed them all during the war against Eregion, which was his secondary plan after his original plan to dominate the Elves failed because they saw it coming.
So the only reason he desires the three that the Elves end up with... is because they ended up with them.
thats a very good point that all were elf rings at the start, so i guess it could be hypothisized that sauron wasnt even aware of the creation of the 3 till after he put on the one otherwise he would have had a hand in their making, hmmm, interesting. that makes you wonder why didnt celibrimbor waite for sauron to help in the creation of the 3? was he vain in his own ability so he created the rings? but i guess he was very successful since they turned to be the most powerful (excluding 1). even still why did he create the 3 after the sauron aided in the others? perhaps he was SUSPICOUS of sauron and felt the need to create 3 more powerful ones. just a thought...
Is there any evidence that the Elven ones are more powerful? We have no real accurate idea of thre power of the other Great Rings. We know they have powers of invisibility that the Elven ones do not, but no-one of sufficient power ever really wore them to make full use of them
Maybe the Elven Rings had powers to compensate for the lack of invisibility. And maybe they had powers further still, but I do not think so.
No, I think Celebrimbor made 3 himself, purely because he wanted to. He WAS a Noldor, after all.
very true, a grandson of feanor none the less, the most conceited elf of all. i do think it says somewhere that they are the most powerful and i will try and find that tonight and let you know. and that is very true he probably just made the rings because he could, but he is an elf and i guess i am putting a lot of faith in their hate for morgoth and sauron, and through their hate i would hope that celibrimbor atleast had a sneekin suspition of annatar. (excuse my spelling, me very bad speller).