Darth Revan versus Count Dooku

Originally posted by Darth Inanis
Don't forget that the jedi that boarded Revans flagship were only able to board it because of Bastilas battle meditation and Bastila was never truly a jedi master or ever in the council. And how could you be so sure that the other three jedi where masters or even in the council? And we never actually get to see Revan fight against all of them. And remember that Revan had a lot of super machines as help and none of them were actually made by him. For Example the Star Forge: Who knows what Palpatine would have done if he had had the Star Forge. Second Example Malachor V: Revan used Malachor to convert most of the jedi to the dark side. What would Revan have done without them? Revan would have never been able to convert the jedi for his causes without the Star Forge and Malachor V. Palpatines super weapons were the two Death Stars, they were maybe never as powerful as the Star Forge or Malachor V, but they were created by Sidous himself. Revan just found the Star Forge and Malachor V but he never truly understood how they were built, or he would have built a second Star Forge.

Don't take this personal, but I'm gonna pick your post apart. It's what I do in life, other than take up space.

The Jedi who boarded Revan's ship did not get there because of battle meditation. If they did, she would not have been present, but would have been meditating in some room somewhere. That's quite obvious, since she has to sit and meditate if you use her help in the end of KOTOR I (Btw, it is possible to kill her during the match by causing too much damage.)

Ask yourself this question- would you send a handful of Jedi Knights onboard to capture Darth Revan, or Jedi Masters?

We don't Revan see all of them, but we know that they would have been destroyed had Malak not intervened. Kreia and KOTOR sites point out that Malak's actions were guided by the will of the Force, and that his actions allowed Revan to be captured and for the Jedi to have another chance. And Revan has defeated Yusanis, the greatest Echani duellist ever (Considering Echani have a monopoly on vriboblades and swords and the technology behind them, that's a considerable achievement). He also destroyed Mandalore in personal combat, and was strong enough as a Sith Lord that Malak, a frontline hero of the Mandalorian Wars and mighty Sith Lord in his own right, could only hope to fire upon Revan's bridge to kill him. Malak feared Revan in personal combat.

Revan had supermachines? Like what? The Star Forge? It was built by the ancient Ratakans. But super machines has jackall to do with combat ability. The Death Star was made by someone other than Palpatine himself and was made by Wookiee slave labor. Doesn't make a damn lick of difference. And Revan did understand the Star Forge. He understood it as much as the builders did. He understood it enough to shut it down and leave it. Hell, he obviously thought he didn't need it or the risks weren't worth it.

Lastly, Revan poured over Malachor V for a long time. He understands it arguably better than anyone, save perhaps Kreia. And since Revan's ambition was to conquer and unite the Republic against some ancient threat from beyond the Outer Rim, killing Jedi was detrimental to his cause. Granted, though, if he could not corrupt them with the powers of Malachor (A bloody planet) he would have slain those who posed a threat. He was not one to take unneccessary chances.

Originally posted by Darth Inanis
Don't forget that the jedi that boarded Revans flagship were only able to board it because of Bastilas battle meditation and Bastila was never truly a jedi master or ever in the council. And how could you be so sure that the other three jedi where masters or even in the council? And we never actually get to see Revan fight against all of them. And remember that Revan had a lot of super machines as help and none of them were actually made by him. For Example the Star Forge: Who knows what Palpatine would have done if he had had the Star Forge. Second Example Malachor V: Revan used Malachor to convert most of the jedi to the dark side. What would Revan have done without them? Revan would have never been able to convert the jedi for his causes without the Star Forge and Malachor V. Palpatines super weapons were the two Death Stars, they were maybe never as powerful as the Star Forge or Malachor V, but they were created by Sidous himself. Revan just found the Star Forge and Malachor V but he never truly understood how they were built, or he would have built a second Star Forge.

Common idea's not supported by facts.

Revan is a military genius right? We all agree on that, then why would he let Jedi come on his board if they had a chance of killing him? He wouldn't. If they really had a chance of killing him wouldn't he have send his entire crew up against them? Which seems highly unlikely seeing as a republic soldier and Bastila are still alive.

Now as you said Bastila was there because of her battle meditation but she originally seen as to weak and not important enough to go there. Let alone stand poweful enough to stand up against Revan. Revan wanted her she was the only hope the republic had left, without Bastila the Republic would fall even easier, thats what Revan was looking for. To take Bastila. The Jedi there were masters, why? Because the council on Dantooine said so. Only the most powerful and skilled were allowed to go there.

Revan didn't convert the Jedi using the star forge or malachor V those were just tools he used groups of people trained in it, trained by him i might add. and things in the unknown regions that helped him. Probably a dark side learning centre or something like that. Either way Malachor and the Star Forge had very little to do with it. Besides i very much doubt you take a light Jedi to the heart of your empire and a thing that can grant you victory on its own if you are not even sure what he will do with the information he will give them.

It would be as if Hitler invited Allied spies on his secret meetings... Foolish.

Sidious didn't create the Death Star himself, he used people for that. I doubt he even thought of it himself. Revan did not even need the Star Forge it just gave him a huge edge, he was incredibly succesful with the Republic fleet alone. Seeing as he left the weapon factory's stand and kept the Republic working you can assume Revan wanted to use the Star Forge for as little time as possible, seeing as he knew damn well what the thing did to the Rakatan. I don't think he feared what the Forge would do to him, but with the Republic after he died.

So to sum it up, Revan did not want a second star forge, he didn't use Malachor or the Star Forge to convert his enemy's and those guys on his ship were masters that he did not fear otherwise he would have made sure they would have died before they reached the bridge. He let them land because of Bastila to take out the one chance the Republic had.

We must have been working on our replies at the same time.

Revan used Malachor V to convert the jedi that weren't fully on the side of Revan. A statement in KOTOR2 says that at the battle above Malachor V, Revan sent in purposefully those jedi who weren't fully convinced by Revan. Malachor V is a planet filled with dark side energy as we all know, that is also the reason why the trayus academy was built on malachor V. And also Revan needed the Star Forge. Even if he did want to use it as little as possible Revan relied on it. Revan needed the Star Forge as a factory for his fleet. Revan posessed before the Star Forge only 1/3 of the entire republic fleet. It is very much but not enough to overwhelm the republic as he did with the Star Forge. Through the Star Forge he had the advantage of limitless resources. What would he have done without the Star Forge? True he would have had a very big jedi army, but the republic still would have had a fleet twice the size of his and they would have had a jedi that mastered the battle meditation. As we know from the end from KOTOR1, battle meditation can influence the outcome of huge battles. What would happen if Revan would fight against a fleet twice the size as his and that even supported by somone yielding the battle meditation? Would Revan still win? I think not. But still it is true that Revan was a tactical mastermind and genius in leading armys to victory. You convinced me, that Revan would have beaten Tyranus, but I still don't think, that he is as powerful as Sidious.

Malachor V was a trap for those Republic officers and crews and Jedi not loyal to Revan as well as the Mandalorians. The former were used as bait while the latter arrived to fight. The Exile, as general, gave the order to activate the mass shadow generator that crushed both fleets with the collapse of gravity. Otherwise, Revan did not use the planet itself to convert or murder Jedi. He had methods which agents, such as Atton, performed that would make Jedis break or die. The same methods that Malak uses on Bastila.

And battle meditation has limitations. For one, battle meditation is the idea of encompassing all the factors in the battle and organizing them, and then imparting that information via the force to armies. Its limited by its users' powers and by their tactical know-how. You could use a Nextel phone to walky-talky every Marine in Iraq, but if you don't have superior military know-how than the enemy general you're going up against, you'll still lose.

And for your argument, you still haven't proved to us how Sidious could compare with any ancient Sith lord, including Bane, let alone Revan.

And also to the methods of Sidious and Revan in destroying the Jedi: Sidious didn't convert any more jedi than one because too many Sith actually lead to the destruction of the sith order. Like said in KOTOR2: when the sith have no more strong enemy to fight against, then they fight against each other. And also Revan fought against a republic weakened by the mandalorian wars. Sidious also took over a republic weakened by the clone wars, but the clone wars were caused by himself. Revan just used the weakness of the republic after the mandalorian wars but Sidious caused the weakness by creating the clone wars. Sidious was the true mastermind in being able to deceive the entire galaxy like that. And to anwser your question how one could compare Sidious with any of the ancient Sith Lords: Sidious actually succeeded in taking over the entire republic and I don't know any Sith Lord that ever did that before.

The Clone Wars began as a Successionist movement in the Republic that had been in the making for a long time due to the stagnation of the Republic and the corruption of its many officials. While Sidious had dealing with the Trade Federation, a large advocate of succession, to say Sidious masterminded the Clone Wars is as inaccurate as saying Lenin masterminded the Cold War. There are so many factors involved it's impossible to say any one man was the intigator.

And Sidious may have conquered the Republic, a Republic that was weaker and more complacent than the one of Revan's times (Since Sith had been in hiding since the Battle of Ruusan, and there were no enemies to fight, not like the Mandalorians) but how did he do it? He commissioned a clone army, made up an enemy to fight, eliminated a handful of Jedi and proclaimed himself emperor. It's not like he had to fight for a damn thing he had. He worked the system. Any politician worth his daddy's wallet can do that. It's a lot easier to conquer a government from within than from without.

But in personal combat, there is nothing to indicate that Sidious was a warrior. And nothing to indicate that he was stronger in the Force than Revan.

Do you truly think that the republic at the time of sidious is weaker than that during the time of Revan? Just 33 years before the mandalorian wars was the big sith war of Exar Kun. It was one of the biggest galaxy wide spanning war there ever was!!! Even 33 years after that, the galaxy was still recovering from the war against Exar Kun. And in that time there came the mandalorians to battle the republic. This also weakened the republic again. You can't possibly say that the republic at Sidious' times was weaker than that, during Revans Jedi Civil War. The republic had two big wars before Revan turning against the galaxy. Was there any galaxy wide spanning war during the time before the clone wars? I think not. Only a few minor crisis' on few planets like the blockade of naboo. True the republic during Sidious hasn't seen war for a long time, but the republic during Revan was still recovering from two wars it had some years earlier.

Let me ask you this...

What the Republic stronger? How so? Did it have a standing army? A navy? How many ships? Was it stronger from night fighting or weaker?

It was stronger than a republic recovering from two galaxy wide spanning wars.

Depends on how you view strength. It was less rippled with the tidal waves of war and post war, yes. But it was not united and strong militarily. If it had been, there would have been no move for succession and no need for a Clone Army.

The republic during Revan had more forces then the one during Sidious his time. He still had to create an army, Revan faced an already existing and thus trained army. Who had seen a lot more battles and were a lot more skilled then the average none clone trooper if they even existed at that time.

Besides saying 33 years isn't enough to rebuild yourself is bullshit, Germany did it in 25 with a lot of sanctions against them, and they immediately started a war. A war that made the world shake. 33 years is more then enough if you want it to be. But really besides the point.

You still havn't given any argument for why Sidious would win besides that you think his conquest was more impressive. But honestly why would Sidious win? What have you seen him do that could possibly defeat Revan, what has he done? He manipulated instead of fought, he worked behind the scenes instead of finding a challange and destroying it. Revan always worked to improve himself, Sidious however was more then willing to just take the power and hope he would last.

Like I said before Revan had lots of Help from things that already exsisted. Sidious first had to create his Empire out of almost nothing. Sidious was responsible for the battle of Naboo, he was responsible for the seperatistic movement, using Dooku as a puppet for his plans and he was planning all this and the clone wars for at least ten years. What did Revan really do? He was only to amass his first fleet thanks to the mandalorian wars. But unlike Sidious, he wasn't responsible for this war but still used its advantages. What would he have done without the Star Forge? I already said it but I'm going to say it again: he would have lost. And that he didn't use Malachor V to convert jedi to his cause is wrong. As said in part X of the chronicles: "He had discovered a weapon that he could use against the Mandalorians, and a weapon by which he could convert more Jedi to his cause. This process of "turning" Jedi into SITH ASSASSINS continued even as the Jedi Council hailed Revan as a hero(...)". Fact is that Revan would have never won without the Star Forge or Malachor V. And you're comparing Germany with a galaxy-wide spanning republic is ridiculous.

Okay play Kotor II again, make Revan a Dark Side male, then go to Korriban, find the charges and blow up the door leading to Uthar his office. Active the holocron and then tell me what you said again.

Besides if Revan used Malachor V as a turning point that wouldn't explain the serious lack of people there when Nihilus showed up. Who showed there right after the battle above Malachor V. Along with Sion who was also never seen or heard from again. If Revan used Malachor V you would think those two were known.

Malachor was a tool to destroy his opponents those that would not follow him and those he was fighting against. The Star Forge was also not the thing that turned the Jedi, once again go find that holocron and you'll find out for yourself. The Star Forge was a weapon plant a thing that he used to create a bigger fleet faster, so that he could conquer the Republic faster.

He did save the Republic from an enemy nobody thought could be defeated by the Republic and he used a Republic fleet to start his invasion. To say Revan needed the star forge is bullshit. It made it easier for him. Malak needed the Star forge, he couldn't have done anything with out it. But Revan just used it as a tool to make his conquest stronger and faster with less loss of live. Something everybody would want, the same reason Sidious had the Death Star.

And to say Sidious was the one that caused the separatist wars is just incredibly foolish to do, he couldn't have done that without playing out existing feelings. It was coming one way or another and when they had somebody to lead them it happened...

Now the funny thing is though, that even when Sidious had control of an army and the Republic still had to find one he refused to make an assault against the Republic. Sidious was a politician, he back stabbed the rest did what they wanted and in secret organised there fall. I will not deny his genius in this, but to say his conquest was more impressive is like saying that Cleopatra's conquest of Egypt is more impressive then Hanibal Barca's war against Rome... Foolish

Revan faced his opponents he met them head on and always tried to grow stronger by it, Sidious on the other hand refused to do that, scared of the consequences of the Jedi Council. Scared of what the weak few and scattered Jedi could do even without an army. Revan faced all of that. When Sidious was hiding Revan was fighting.

Bah, this is getting ugly...

Sidious created an Empire out of an existing, docile and corrupt Republic, not a void.

Sidious orchestrated the Battle of Naboo, yes. Revan orchestrated the military victory from a position of near defeat over the Mandalorians, the virtual Wehrmacht of the universe.

And Revan was very responsible for the Jedi Civil War and all its backlashes.

Yesssss! I found it! After an hour of searching through old threads I finally found this classic! Ahh the good old days were the best.

Please stop.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Please stop.

Why? I was looking for this thread anyway and I just bumped two others during my search. All the other threads on the top pretty much suck as it is.

Is this bash the forum day? Janus kept going on about how crappy it is earlier today.

I rather appreciate looking over the old threads. At least people generally made sense.