George W Bush

Originally posted by PVS
your question makes no sense.

"explain how being prepared and catching saddam..."
to explain what you ask, i would have to yield in my arguement...nice try.

my point is that capturing saddam was the result of an invasion.
we were prepared for an invasion, i never argued that...ever.
i argue that we were never prepared for the REAL task, which is keeping the peace in iraq, training iraqis to police their own country, and get the hell out of there, leaving behind a new flourishing democracy...thats not happening. did you know that not all cities in iraq will be holding elections?

iraq is in the state of chaos, and terrorists are attracted to chaos. its not a religion, but a result of a fundamentilist wackos seeking out chaos to exploit. thus the taliban in afganistan.

That is a foolish way of thinking. What army has ever been prepared for all aspects. A battlefield is a living organism, changing and escalating at all levels. Who says that we were not prepared, the militaryt and government cannot tell the public, "oh ya we can beat em, but the enemy will use partisans for a while and we will suffer X number of casualties for X amount of time, and we are willing to take that kind of hit." The military has always worked on the premises that we will take losses. The civilian populace thinks we can fight without losing troops, totally foolish and utterly ignorant. Setting governments take a VERY long time, there have only been a few instance in history that this can be applicable, the idea of liberation, without the premises for control in some way. Japan and Germany are the closest things we come to. Either took extrodinarily long amounts of time. 7+ years of occupation of Japan, 40 years in Germany, you do the math, does it sound like we were prepared to deal with that even though we had 3 years of prior planing stating for the US in 42? We all knew we had to invade and topple the governments.

Originally posted by RaventheOnly
The countries who chose not to help us chose to do so far before and, no amount of time would have changed thier minds. You throw this credibility crap around like its new, all the countries that hate us now are the same who hated us then. The only thing that has changed is that our enemies are now watching thier backs because we are willing to take them down weree ever they stand.
Are you calling our spies, and ever other countries spies collectively, satilite intel officers of every country and the UN itself liars? Our operatives risk thier very lives to get that intel. Did it ever pass threw your mind that maybe, just maybe all of it was true and during the 3 months of waiting or earlier they smuggled the equipment out? i doubt not that the did not have uranium, but can you deny the fact that Saddam had been searching for a way to get some?

well, i was talking to saddam on the phone, and he never said anything about--- how the hell can i deny ANYTHING of what saddam's motives were and how can you declare that he WAS seeking uranium???

and for your information, the majority of nations were on our side...saddly it took a disaster like 911 to make this so, but you are wrong, they didnt all hate us. even france was on our side for christs sake.

----"Are you calling our spies, and ever other countries spies collectively, satilite intel officers of every country and the UN itself liars? "

a sad attempt to browbeat me, i call those higher-ups who discipher this intelligence to be liars.

intelligence given: this MAY be the location of a chemical plant.
bush: this IS a chemical plant

intelligence given: it may be possible that saddam is seeking uranium from africa.
bush: we know for a fact that saddam is seeking uranium.

intelligence is not served on a plate by spies. its just recordings, videos, satellite images...etc. powell declaired this intelligence to be solid proof when it clearly wasnt.

Originally posted by RaventheOnly
That is a foolish way of thinking. What army has ever been prepared for all aspects. A battlefield is a living organism, changing and escalating at all levels. Who says that we were not prepared, the militaryt and government cannot tell the public, "oh ya we can beat em, but the enemy will use partisans for a while and we will suffer X number of casualties for X amount of time, and we are willing to take that kind of hit." The military has always worked on the premises that we will take losses. The civilian populace thinks we can fight without losing troops, totally foolish and utterly ignorant. Setting governments take a VERY long time, there have only been a few instance in history that this can be applicable, the idea of liberation, without the premises for control in some way. Japan and Germany are the closest things we come to. Either took extrodinarily long amounts of time. 7+ years of occupation of Japan, 40 years in Germany, you do the math, does it sound like we were prepared to deal with that even though we had 3 years of prior planing stating for the US in 42? We all knew we had to invade and topple the governments.

bush declaired thatour troops would be praised as liberators and that there would be minimal casualties. so, lets use your own arguement, which begs the question..."how was bush so sure of this"

well, thats what he was prepared for.

Originally posted by PVS
well, i was talking to saddam on the phone, and he never said anything about--- how the hell can i deny ANYTHING of what saddam's motives were and how can you declare that he WAS seeking uranium???

and for your information, the majority of nations were on our side...saddly it took a disaster like 911 to make this so, but you are wrong, they didnt all hate us. even france was on our side for christs sake.

----"Are you calling our spies, and ever other countries spies collectively, satilite intel officers of every country and the UN itself liars? "

a sad attempt to browbeat me, i call those higher-ups who discipher this intelligence to be liars.

intelligence given: this MAY be the location of a chemical plant.
bush: this IS a chemical plant

intelligence given: it may be possible that saddam is seeking uranium from africa.
bush: we know for a fact that saddam is seeking uranium.

intelligence is not served on a plate by spies. its just recordings, videos, satellite images...etc. powell declaired this intelligence to be solid proof when it clearly wasnt.

Well......hmmmmm i don't know.... only every country in the Arab world woud sacrifice half thier economy to obtain some..... i don't know.... i think its more logic then assumption.

When were tey on our side and who? The missles Saddam was implimenting before the conflict was of FRENCH design, sold to them by FRENCH arms dealers, sounds like they are really on our side 😊 Germany was helping design the nuclear power plants Saddam tried to build and Isreal smashed with air strikes, really on our side 😊 any other willing candidates? 😱

higher ups huh? 😱 do you think that the military would let a bunch of snot nose politicians lie to them? it was not only Bush's administration that said they were what they were, the UN intel office looked at them and there was concensous that they were indeed, FOR GOD SAKES the reason they didn't go to war also was because they wished to further their diplomatic card for a 17th time.

Originally posted by RaventheOnly
Well......hmmmmm i don't know.... only every country in the Arab world woud sacrifice half thier economy to obtain some..... i don't know.... i think its more logic then assumption.

When were tey on our side and who? The missles Saddam was implimenting before the conflict was of FRENCH design, sold to them by FRENCH arms dealers, sounds like they are really on our side 😊 Germany was helping design the nuclear power plants Saddam tried to build and Isreal smashed with air strikes, really on our side 😊 any other willing candidates? 😱

So now that WMD didn't work out we are reverting back to 'Saddam didn't allow the inspectors access' That is a great reason. I'll put it in a letter to send the the families of the Iraqis who died for Bush's War. You know the ones. The 3 year old that was living next to the 'terrorists'. The mother who died because she was in the wrong place when our military decided to blow up a building.

Not many people look at this war from the Iraqis point of view. What would we do if another country invaded America. Wouldn't we fight them? Would we be considered terrorists?

I am sure there are people in Iraq that deserve to die. However Mr. Bush never addresses the people who didn't need to die.

Sorry Bush supporters, none of your reason seem good enough. How many more innocents needed to die for Bush's Greed and Revenge?

Dude, do you know how many people in the middle east are glad that we are over there...many...lots are against us being there also...its impossible to please everyone...but there is enough backing us there...that are glad that we are there and took Saddam out...PVS you make it sound so easy, we should have gone in, made it peaceful and gotten the hell out...It's harder than you think and if we pull out now we'd be screwing them over...Everything takes time so if you want what you said done...it will take time...Kerry says he can do it better...It's easy to say you can do it better...but harder when its your actually doing it...And Zanthor, as for the WMD thing not working out...PVS now says that he does think that there were in fact weapons...he said that he did not disagree with that...Decide where you people stand on the issue...stop changing your minds...Saddam did not give access to the UN inspectors...which is probably because he DID have weapons and didn't want us to find them...or why else wouldn't he have allowed us in? Thusly, we went in to take him out...That's what the soldiers were fighting for, and now we are trying to establish the peace...and there is going to be elections held...not in every city maybe, but at least some...and that's what matters...

Not that many people are glad, actually. Maybe you've never seen American flags burned all over that region in various countries.

Our backing Iraq in its war with Iran was seperate from the hostages because they'd been released by then.....

And yes, we're a bigger target now. In the Mid East there is the persistent belief that the US wants to take over the whole region for its oil, an idea we are making look true by knocking over one of their nations even as we make statements about another one (Iran).

Originally posted by hunchy
PVS now says that he does think that there were in fact weapons...he said that he did not disagree with that...Decide where you people stand on the issue...stop changing your minds...Saddam did not give access to the UN inspectors...which is probably because he DID have weapons and didn't want us to find them...or why else wouldn't he have allowed us in?

go back and find the post where i said there was never wmd's in iraq.
he USED weapons on the iranians (compliments of the u.s.) and the kurds (which 10 years later bush all of the sudden cares about)

saddam gave access and claimed he was willing to allow u.n. inspectors to search the previously off-limits sites. was he full of shit? maybe. but thats how it rolled out, get the facts straight. the u.n. asked for more time and bush refused. whether or not you agree with bush's motives or the u.n.'s motives, fact is fact.

Originally posted by hunchy
Dude, do you know how many people in the middle east are glad that we are over there...many...lots are against us being there also...its impossible to please everyone...but there is enough backing us there...that are glad that we are there and took Saddam out...PVS you make it sound so easy, we should have gone in, made it peaceful and gotten the hell out...It's harder than you think and if we pull out now we'd be screwing them over...Everything takes time so if you want what you said done...it will take time...Kerry says he can do it better...It's easy to say you can do it better...but harder when its your actually doing it...And Zanthor, as for the WMD thing not working out...PVS now says that he does think that there were in fact weapons...he said that he did not disagree with that...Decide where you people stand on the issue...stop changing your minds...Saddam did not give access to the UN inspectors...which is probably because he DID have weapons and didn't want us to find them...or why else wouldn't he have allowed us in? Thusly, we went in to take him out...That's what the soldiers were fighting for, and now we are trying to establish the peace...and there is going to be elections held...not in every city maybe, but at least some...and that's what matters...

You convince me. I'm going to give my vote to the President.

And you're wasting your vote just to tell you, vote kerry in 04 for a better economy/america/war/life, vote bush if you're one of those ***holes that think they know whats best and the bible knows, for no gay marraige, screw you, i say you can have a gay wedding (they serve good food at those) and after that they can have unprotected sex on the american flag, what are you gonna do, none of your damn business, im for gay rights, womens rights, and freedom, im an american male, and thats my dream for everything to be right, im not gay, or a women, or a republican, i just want a more safer and better america, and as for the war, get the troops out and leave that poor iraq alone

There's no telling whether John Kerry will make the American Economy better, whether he'll make better progress in the war, or if our "life" will be better with him as President.

All you can do is look at everything in the past 4 years and ask...

Is it worth the risk to change presidents to see if he can actually improve things around this country. And personally, I'm willing to take that risk. Things haven't been THAT good in the past 4 years. Actually they've been worst than any in recent memory.

And Drum....being a Dennis Leary wannabe won't get you anywhere in life. ❌

Originally posted by Drumdude1167
And you're wasting your vote just to tell you, vote kerry in 04 for a better economy/america/war/life, vote bush if you're one of those ***holes that think they know whats best and the bible knows, for no gay marraige, screw you, i say you can have a gay wedding (they serve good food at those) and after that they can have unprotected sex on the american flag, what are you gonna do, none of your damn business, im for gay rights, womens rights, and freedom, im an american male, and thats my dream for everything to be right, im not gay, or a women, or a republican, i just want a more safer and better america, and as for the war, get the troops out and leave that poor iraq alone

I just love it when ppl get all panic when someone says "I'm voting for Bush". It is indeed the sign of our times. What makes it even more entertaining is that they belive that Kerry will bring prosperity to the US. I can't help finding all this humoristic.

Originally posted by hunchy
Dude, do you know how many people in the middle east are glad that we are over there...many...lots are against us being there also...its impossible to please everyone...

When did you talk to all these people that want us there? The administration said we would be welcomed with open arms. Ya open arms alright... Fire at us. So what you are saying is that since some of the people want us there it's ok that we killed 13,000-15,000 Iraqis? This has nothing to do with pleasing people. It has to do with people(Bush) being held accountable for all the deaths. They kill 3,000, we kill more. When does it stop. How many other countries will Bush try to take over?

Why doesn't anyone address the Innocent Civilian deaths. Seems like everyone is skirting the issue and talking around it. Or out and out ignoring it. We should never have illegally gone in to Iraq in the first place.

If we had gone in just to get Saddam then we could have assassinated him. Our president wanted more and everyone knows it. Some just don't want to admit it. He wants to spread 'Freedom and liberty'. Whether these countries like it or not. How many more people will die on Bush's watch. He is responsible for the American deaths and for the innocents. After all he says he a religious man. That a lot of death for a man who follows god.

Originally posted by hunchy
Everything takes time so if you want what you said done...it will take time...Kerry says he can do it better...It's easy to say you can do it better...but harder when its your actually doing it

It shouldn't be taking time as you say it should never have happened!

Originally posted by hunchy
PVS now says that he does think that there were in fact weapons...he said that he did not disagree with that...Decide where you people stand on the issue...stop changing your minds...

Decide where I stand on the issue because we keep changing our minds? Are you feeling ok. A touch of fever perhaps? You must not be reading my posts if you think I have changed my mind on any of this. Conceding a possible point such as PVS did by agreeing there might have been WMD does mean he is changing his mind. All he said was that it is possible and it doesn't change his point. You read what you want and run with it with out reading the rest. If addressing a post please address all points not just the ones you take out of context.

So I say vote Kerry!

I am zanthor and I approve this message.

The fact of the matter is...the collateral damage caused by every bomb we drop creates more and more hatred against the United States.

If you were barely siding with America, and wanted to cooperate with them and help them build a better Iraq. And then they bombed your parents house, killing your mom, dad, brother and sister....would you still be on America's side?

No, you'd want to go get a gun and avenge your parents. The ONLY thing I really liked about Farenheit 9/11 was the footage of all the dead Iraqi civilians. It gave me some real insight as to what horrow we are actually causing while trying to bring about change.

You misunderstood me. Yes, there are many that hate us over there...but most of them just happen to be terrorists and also praised the 9/11 attacks...or perhaps those who backed Saddam...and there is also a lot of people that are glad we are over there...I have heard both sides on opinions and I've come to the conclusion that its pretty split...and you can't please everyone now can you? Most of the ones against the war, just hate the US for many various reasons and of course they don't want us in their country...but I think that ones that do and want freedom deserve it...don't you? Let me guess...your gonna say, yes but we kill tons of civilians...again, of course there is gonna be some...there was tons under Saddam anyway...the terrorists don't care about civilians...they hide behind them and use them as shields...Many of you now say that you are for the war, just against how Bush went in...no matter, HOW you went in, how prepared you were, what President did it...your gonna have casualties so just accept that. And PVS, when I first came on here you claimed that Saddam didn't have weapons...that was one of the points I debated you on...I am not going back through tons of posts just to prove it to you...YOU know you backed that fact, as do I...As for what "Link" said about Fahrenheit 9/11 and the casualites...yes, that was good footage...but of course in an anti-war documentary they are gonna shw all the bad stuff...which there IS don't get me wrong...but you don't see the other side and that also matters. Zanthor, tell me, did I ever specifically address your name when I was talking about those who changed their mind? No...The only one I named was PVS...and there is others...

"Not that many people are glad, actually. Maybe you've never seen American flags burned all over that region in various countries."

"And you're wasting your vote just to tell you, vote kerry in 04 for a better economy/america/war/life, vote bush if you're one of those ***holes that think they know whats best and the bible knows, for no gay marraige, screw you, i say you can have a gay wedding (they serve good food at those) and after that they can have unprotected sex on the american flag, what are you gonna do, none of your damn business, im for gay rights, womens rights, and freedom, im an american male, and thats my dream for everything to be right, im not gay, or a women, or a republican, i just want a more safer and better america, and as for the war, get the troops out and leave that poor iraq alone"

"I just love it when ppl get all panic when someone says "I'm voting for Bush". It is indeed the sign of our times. What makes it even more entertaining is that they belive that Kerry will bring prosperity to the US. I can't help finding all this humoristic."

First off, Wind Dancer, did I really change your view on the subject? And secondly, Drumdude1167 how dare you slam him for saying his opinion...again, people keep slamming us for liking Bush...Course PVS said I was slamming people for liking John Kerry and disagreeing with me...but yet, he couldn't find a post where I said anything of such...because I didn't...and ignored my post where I said he had turned that statement around on me...

Originally posted by Tptmanno1
Oh come on,
We gave Iraq and Afganistan 90% of the weapons they are using!
Thats fact,
look it up if you have to.

no we didn't ... read a history book ..... they use ex-soviet hardware. We supported Isreal and funded them, and the soviets funded the Arabs. When we saw the moment to get Iran back after they took our hostages and released them after more then a year we funded Iraq in fighting Iran. When the Soviets invaded afganistan, we sent the CIA to smuggle in stingers.... and funded a small bit of war lords to fight the Communists. It was indirectly fighting the Cold War, plain and simple, after the Soviets fell, it was our time to fight them.

Originally posted by Linkalicious
There's no telling whether John Kerry will make the American Economy better, whether he'll make better progress in the war, or if our "life" will be better with him as President.

All you can do is look at everything in the past 4 years and ask...

Is it worth the risk to change presidents to see if he can actually improve things around this country. And personally, I'm willing to take that risk. Things haven't been THAT good in the past 4 years. Actually they've been worst than any in recent memory.

And Drum....being a Dennis Leary wannabe won't get you anywhere in life. ❌

Do you realize what exactly we went threw through the past 4 years? Ressecion followed by war. Most wars are fought when getting out of ressecion, considering the circumstances, we are actually doing quite good.

Originally posted by Linkalicious
The fact of the matter is...the collateral damage caused by every bomb we drop creates more and more hatred against the United States.

If you were barely siding with America, and wanted to cooperate with them and help them build a better Iraq. And then they bombed your parents house, killing your mom, dad, brother and sister....would you still be on America's side?

No, you'd want to go get a gun and avenge your parents. The ONLY thing I really liked about Farenheit 9/11 was the footage of all the dead Iraqi civilians. It gave me some real insight as to what horrow we are actually causing while trying to bring about change.

Oh and what do the terrorists bombs do everyday? Make them happier?
We do not use bombers or air support unless the enemy is in a relatively wide area with minimal civilian buildings. You drop a bomb at 30,000 feet and hit a target dead on. That movie was so one sided i can't believe a human can go in and not feel totally manipulated and lied to. Showing pictures of our bombs killing peole by accident is no way to depict an enemy who actually aims for them. Please explain the logic of accident compared to intention.