Yeah that's what I mean - in the Original Trilogy, the duels had dialogue, psychology and were brilliant plot devices.
In the PT, it's like "OK, we need a duel here, because the others had them".
The fights may kill off a character, or badly damage someone like in the prequels, but they are pretty "cold". They just seem, I dunno, run-of-the-mill.
The fights in the PT also look TOO good, and they look choreographed and Matrix-y. Yeah, sure, that's what Jedi's can do, but in the OT, the fights seemed frantic and panic-ridden.
The PT fights seem to be just movements. The lightsabers also seem to lack the "Whoomph!" factor - the sabers from the OT seemed a lot more powerful, because of the restrictions of the fights. The PT seems to make it look all too easy to swing lightsabers around willy-nilly, hacking bits off droids, lopping off heads as though they are nothing.
I actually thought the best duel in AOTC was Jango vs Fett (but that isn't counted here), because it seemed like a FIGHT, a struggle. That's what the PT duels are lacking. The OT duels made them look like a real struggle, and therefore, more of a FIGHT, rather than some flashy dance.
That's just my personal preference.
I agree with Superfly in comparing the old movies with the new. The old stuff has intensity, and the fact that they(the fighters) aren't perfect and can make mistakes adds so much to the film. The newer ones have too much hype, which takes away some realism from the characters. A hero who is untouchable is boring, but a hero who can be hurt or killed keeps you on the edge of your seat.
What I try to do when I write my duels and fights is make it a bit more guerilla style combat. Dirty cheap moves, things that would make sense. For example, if you're in a deadlock and you're close to someone, why wouldn't you use a little Force Lightning on him to give yourself an edge? Take swings at the face, cut people up just to cut people and do a little damage instead of always trying to just block. I agree that the PT duels do seem choreographed, but I have to admit that they're more entertaining even though they lack the emotion that was in the V and VI duels...IV just plain old sucked lol
remember, the duels in the OT were between:
vader and kenobi: a mechanical half-the-man-he-used-to-be vs. a broken down old man.
vader vs. luke: mecha-man vs. wet-behind-the-ears, hastily trained and relatively unexperienced young kid.
the participants in these duels were either old and rusty or young and unskilled, thus the more barbaric style of fighting.
in the PT, we see a bunch of highly educated duelists doing what they do best.
its like this:
OT duelist=barbarian
PT duelist=samurai
and lets face it, its more exciting to watch a barbarian hack away at someone with an axe than to see a samurai do a single cut and make the kill.
EDIT: correction...there WAS a certain elegance to the vader/ben duel, so that is the exception.
Vader is old and rusty? He isn't made from remains of the Tin-Man lol.
I miss the old school barbaric style.
And those OT fights made the lightsabers more "elite" weapons.
I mean, they seemed heavy, hard to handle, and very, very powerful. Only Vader seemed to be able to wield one with one hand because of his mechanical strength. That to me made it very impressive. It put across the idea that only a Jedi could wield such a weapon - as Han demonstrated on Hoth, as he looked like he was picking up a heavy mallet.
The PT make the sabers TOO elegant, swinging them around like they are staffs made of balsa wood.
George Lucas kinda shot himself in the foot - he's made his OT fight scenes look old and dated by doing what he's done with these new fights. If he made the fights more in line with the OT - then he wouldn't have "fans" complaining about Episode 4's less extravagent showdown between Obi-Wan and Vader.
I, for one, am hoping that the blue vs blue duel in Episode 3 will be more like Luke vs Vader, rather than something that resembles the "dance" between Obi-Wan and Maul. I know for a fact, that this fight will be choreographed to HELL, but I hope there's bits where they just POWER FIGHT like when Luke goes mental with Vader.
GL hasn't shot himself in the foot- his very intention was to show that the OT fighting was a pale imitation of the sabre heydey, for precisely the reasons PVS mentions.
I have a very great regard for the ANH duel between Vader and Obi-Wan. It was technically very good and totally appropriate for the situation- it's not something they could repeat again.
The ESB asnd ROTJ duels, whilst they did have a certain amount of drama, frankly I found them clumsy and unconvincing. I like the dramatic bits only, not really the duels as a whole. And I believe SW is a partly visual experience so I would refute queeq's point; the good looking duels are more SW by default.
The TPM duel was brilliantly designed, brilliantly performed, and brilliantly shot. It's only problem was how intercut it was with other, less interesting scenes. I think it annhilates the ESB and ROTJ ones, frankly; their drama is rendered irrelevant by the spectacle and it so happened that that duel contained more characterisation than the whole rest of TPM., and more than Luke got in his entire trilogy (which was basically, whiner leaves home and changes clothes and then FINALLY becomes interesting right at the very end).
And I have no idea where this idea that sabres are heavy comes from- Han was worried about impaling itself. When Luke picks it up for the first time in ANH, it is clearly very light. They are NOT super-heavy weapons, and never were, from the ANH duel onwards. There is no change with the PT.
well lightsabers are not heavy though, a blade made of LIGHT would be very easy to move. So that is actually more logical, to have a faster duel. Although i like both styles, it makes more sense to have a duel be faster when both combatants are wielding lightsabers, becuase they are supposed to be fast moving weapons.
in response to Red Superfly)
Oh well, there's absolutely no way I can agree with what you just said Ushgarak, but I respect your insanity.
Also, a thing I noticed about the duels from OT and PT - was that in the OT, the lightsabers sound a lot LOUDER, and when they ignite, they sound SICK.
The sabers from the PT have awful sound effects, especially when they switch them off - they just turn on and off with a pathetic whimper. Maybe that's another reason as to why I liked the OT duels more - the sound effects were better.
Like the bit where Luke is "edging" towards Vader with his saber on, and all we can hear is the two sabers moving and clashing, and yells of struggle from Luke. The atmosphere is eery, and brilliant.
There's no denying that the fights are better choreographed, but personally, that isn't why I became a Star Wars fan. I became a fan because of everything in the OT. The OT never prided itself on the choreography of the duels, rather than the strength of the story surrounding it.
The PT is doing this backwards, seemingly focussing on new ways to choreograph awesome looking fight scenes, instead of trying to build a quality story AROUND the fight. Sure the fights had a narrative, but they were transparantly done out of necessity for a stunning fight sequence rather than to hold their own as part of the story.
I also find it a bit strange how the best duel of the PT will inevitably be the Obi-Ani battle, which is in effect a fan-made fight due to the demand of it, and the fact that fans wouldn't accept anything other than Anakin saying his last words above some sort of fiery pit. In a way, the best bit of the PT won't even be 100% Lucas's creation. Ironic?
Originally posted by Ushgarak
And I have no idea where this idea that sabres are heavy comes from- Han was worried about impaling itself. When Luke picks it up for the first time in ANH, it is clearly very light. They are NOT super-heavy weapons, and never were, from the ANH duel onwards. There is no change with the PT.
notice how luke almost took ben's face off with the saber when he first switched it on 😆 i wonder if they fixed that for the dvd.
i also fully agree with ush about saber weight. quigon, obiwan, and as ush said, han solo had no problem weilding it.
Originally posted by SnakeEyes
well lightsabers are not heavy though, a blade made of LIGHT would be very easy to move. So that is actually more logical, to have a faster duel. Although i like both styles, it makes more sense to have a duel be faster when both combatants are wielding lightsabers, becuase they are supposed to be fast moving weapons.in response to Red Superfly)
Um, I read that the Lightsabers create a heavy backlash from merely swishing them in the air. It was an explanation used back before the PT was created, to explain why the lightsabers seemd so heavy looking in the OT.
Whether or not that explanation holds up today is another thing. It's just another superior idea that Lucas has thrown out the window, oh well.
I don't think it's off topic, it's still about the duels.
I don't mean the sabers seemed physically heavy - I meant they seemed to have a lot of momentum when swung, and therefore created difficulty when trying to swing them around like freakin' ninjas with nunchucks.
Just my opinion. I thought the OT sabers looked like weapons, and the PT sabers looked like child's playthings, that's what I meant.
first of all in the OT GL made the duels look clumsy and out of step because Vadar and Obi- Wan are old and have not used their light sabers in a while in a sense they are out of practice Luke style is that way because he is trained by an old jedi and so he wold have a similar style
TPM and AOTC take place in what is called the Golden Age of jedi so they are all well trained and well practiced in their individual styles
all of this comes from interviews with GL himself so you see that is what he planned on
th OT seem more dramatic because they take place in the during the darkest time for the galaxy and they were emotional for instants Vadar, Obi-Wan , and Luke all knew each other they were all practically family so it was very emotional say fighting you father or your son or in vadar and obi-wans case vadar once considered obi-wan like a father and obi-wan looked at anakin as a son
as for TPM maul and obi-wan didnt know each other never met before they fought and it wasnt really emotional until Qui gon was killed then it was pretty emotional and intense
and lightsabers are childrens weapons
think of the very young padawans they had lightsabers 😆 😆 😆
"the PT make the sabers TOO elegant, swinging them around like they are staffs made of balsa wood"
No the are made of light and energy
There's no denying that the fights are better choreographed, but personally, that isn't why I became a Star Wars fan. I became a fan because of everything in the OT. The OT never prided itself on the choreography of the duels, rather than the strength of the story surrounding it.
the OT WERE choreographed very intense choreography.
Originally posted by Red Superfly
Oh well, there's absolutely no way I can agree with what you just said Ushgarak, but I respect your insanity.Also, a thing I noticed about the duels from OT and PT - was that in the OT, the lightsabers sound a lot LOUDER, and when they ignite, they sound SICK.
The sabers from the PT have awful sound effects, especially when they switch them off - they just turn on and off with a pathetic whimper. Maybe that's another reason as to why I liked the OT duels more - the sound effects were better.
Like the bit where Luke is "edging" towards Vader with his saber on, and all we can hear is the two sabers moving and clashing, and yells of struggle from Luke. The atmosphere is eery, and brilliant.
There's no denying that the fights are better choreographed, but personally, that isn't why I became a Star Wars fan. I became a fan because of everything in the OT. The OT never prided itself on the choreography of the duels, rather than the strength of the story surrounding it.
The PT is doing this backwards, seemingly focussing on new ways to choreograph awesome looking fight scenes, instead of trying to build a quality story AROUND the fight. Sure the fights had a narrative, but they were transparantly done out of necessity for a stunning fight sequence rather than to hold their own as part of the story.
I also find it a bit strange how the best duel of the PT will inevitably be the Obi-Ani battle, which is in effect a fan-made fight due to the demand of it, and the fact that fans wouldn't accept anything other than Anakin saying his last words above some sort of fiery pit. In a way, the best bit of the PT won't even be 100% Lucas's creation. Ironic?
Aside from that being GL's original idea, you mean?
And this idea about the fights being there just for their own sake strikes me as arrant balderdash. That's no different to the original films. And also the idea that they in some way weren't trying to prioritise the choreography of the OT duels is crud as well- they just weren't as good at it. You're just being confused by the fact the ESB duel is in the best film and the ROTJ one the best bit of that film.
I rate the TPM duel above the OT ones in terms of look, style- AND drama. It brought the Sith out into the open, provided all the characterisation as I mentioned above, brought GL's dream of what duels were ABOUT onto the screen, and advanced a vital part of the plot. Frankly, I think what you call 'insanity' is actually simply me not being stuck in the past, making more of things than there really was.
Originally posted by PVSEDIT: correction...there WAS a certain elegance to the vader/ben duel, so that is the exception. [/B]
I think Dooku has a unique elegance in both his manner and fighting style. He's a dark lord, but still retains everything he had as an accomplished Jedi Master. It'll almost be a shame to see him go...hopefully the fight is a good one.