You like religion here...so....

Originally posted by Darth Revan
Bullshit. The reason we have more school shootings in school today than we did a hundred years ago is because guns are more easily accessible to kids. My dad owns some guns, and I know how to shoot them. However, he drilled into my head from day one that guns can kill people and to never, ever point a gun (even an empty one) at a person. Every time I even picked a gun up, he always made sure I checked to see that it was loaded... I could go on, but you get the general picture. My father has never been a religious person.

The other reason for school shootings is kids getting picked on and bullied by "cool" kids. That's something that used to happen to me a lot, and honestly, if I had been older and had access to my dad's gun cabinet... The results wouldn't have been pretty. And I'm not a violent person, I'm very opposed to using military force unless it becomes absolutely necessary. Guess who the kids who bullied me all the time were? The ones I saw in Sunday school every week. Obviously they weren't the only ones, but they were the "ringleaders", so to speak.

CF> Actually, you have the Thanksgiving thing a little backwards... The first thanksgiving that we talk about today was attended by almost a hundred local indians and a handful of European colonists. It was basically a big party... But you're right when you say that it didn't come to much historically. This country has a history of being racist, sexist, and homophobic. The "Texas Rangers" that we glorify so much today got started by driving out Mexican immigrants in the 1800's for no reason at all.

Being picked on in schools is NOT a new thing, rather you agree or not, i thk more school shootings take place cuz everyone is trying to take God out of the school. They complain at graduations, geeezzzzzz if someone wants to pray, it's their graduation Too.

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
I have always wondered......suppose you die and find out there IS a god.......what will you say to him then? I mean Id really like an answer to that from anyone who's an atheist. SUPPOSE you are WRONG. What then? I mean if I die and find out there ISNT a god what have I lost really? But if an atheist finds out there IS a god and hes been denying them all this time I think thats gonna be kinda messy for your soul 😖 Please understand Im not being flip, I really want to know.

JP.....

That, in fact, is a very good question and one that as an atheist I have been asked a few times.

The answer is simple:

If...or rather WHEN, I die and the curtain falls...if I find myself in heaven or hell, ( if I have been deemed to be a bad person ), then I will just have to accept this and hold my hands up and say I was wrong.

As I think I am a fairly good person I would hope - even as an atheist - that I might go to the Klingon's Stovo-cor or the native American Happy Hunting Grounds or whatever you want to call it...and I will be pleasantly surprised.

If I find that after I die there is just nothingness for eternity, then I will be expecting this, will not be disappointed and will have to accept it....BUT....If one of the faithful dies and there is no heaven they are going to be TERRIBLY disappointed.

No disappointment for me, as I don't expect anything in the first place, but a pleasant surprise if I find I am in heaven.

If I do finish up in heaven I will just have to say to whoever is in charge up there that I was just a foolish old atheist and would I be given the benefit of the doubt.

After all...your God is supposed to be a loving and forgiving entity is he not ?

Surely he/she/it will forgive me that one mistake - as after all he/she/it has never supplied any incontrovertible proof down here that he/she/it exists at all - so he/she/it is bound to get punters appearing before him/her/it, all mixed up.

Do you think that I would be denied entry to heaven after that one silly mistake ? 🙂

Originally posted by Papaumau
[b]JP.....

That, in fact, is a very good question and one that as an atheist I have been asked a few times.

The answer is simple:

If...or rather WHEN, I die and the curtain falls...if I find myself in heaven or hell, ( if I have been deemed to be a bad person ), then I will just have to accept this and hold my hands up and say I was wrong. As I think I am a fairly good person I would hope - even as an atheist - that I might go to the Klingon's Stovo-cor or the native American happy hunting grounds or whatever you want to call it...and I will be pleasantly surprised. If I find that after I die there is just nothingness for eternity, then I will be expecting this, will not be disappointed and will have to accept it....BUT....If one of the faithful dies and there is no heaven they are going to be TERRIBLY disappointed.

No disappointement for me as I don't expect anything in the first place but a pleasant surprise if I find I am in heaven.

If I do finish up in heaven I will just have to say to whoever is in charge up there that I was just a foolish old atheist and would I be given the benefit of the doubt.

After all...your God is supposed to be a loving and forgiving entity is he not ?

Surely he/she/it will forgive me that one mistake - as after all he/she/it has never supplied any incontrovertible proof down here that he/she/it exists at all - so he/she/it is bound to get punters appearing before him/her/it, all mixed up.

Do you think that I would be denied entry to heaven after that one silly mistake ? 🙂 [/B]

I agree with you 100%. But anyone that wouldn't agree would say that the answer to your last line would be "yes"

Yo...Capt'n...

You said: ( After I asked if I would be denied entry to heaven just because I had foolishly chosen to be an atheist while I was down here )...

I agree with you 100%. But anyone that wouldn't agree would say that the answer to your last line would be "yes"

Not a very loving or forgiving decision that !

If that IS the case then that God of the faithful is really a nasty piece of work after all and is the jealous and vengeful and selfish God that some say he/she/it is in parts of The Bible.

I just cannot see such a supreme being being like that at all !

Originally posted by Papaumau
[b]Yo...Capt'n...

You said: ( After I asked if I would be denied entry to heaven just because I had foolishly chosen to be an atheist while I was down here )...

Not a very loving or forgiving decision that !

If that IS the case then that God of the faithful is really a nasty piece of work after all and is the jealous and vengeful and selfish God that some say he/she/it is in parts of The Bible.

I just cannot see such a supreme being being like that at all ! [/B]

Neither can I. In reality, I don't see god paying much attention to us at all.

Originally posted by Fiery Eyes
Being picked on in schools is NOT a new thing, rather you agree or not, i thk more school shootings take place cuz everyone is trying to take God out of the school. They complain at graduations, geeezzzzzz if someone wants to pray, it's their graduation Too.

I didn't say bullying was a new thing, I said kids being able to find guns easier was a new thing. Which it is.

And I've never seen anybody being prevented from praying on their own in school. It's just that it's not right to make EVERYBODY pray when there are perhaps only a handful of Christian students in any given class.

I'm not sure why gun violence is so much more prevelant than it used to be. There have always been bullies, there have always been guns and there have always been disturbed children. I don't know if it's more news coverage or what, but it's an interesting dynamic. I know Michael Morre would say it's the fact that so many guns are around, but I don't think that's it. There are guns in all countries, but you don't have 12 year olds blowing each other away everywhere. I think when it comes right down to it, we just have a really screwed up society.

Yea, but it IS differen't here. The attitude towards them is different. I don't exactly know how to describe it, but the way America as a whole views guns, its different than other countries.

FE> I will not pray in school. I came to school to learn facts, not have opinions shoved down my throats, if I want that I'll watch Fox or something. I will flatly and curtly refuse to pray if a teacher asks me, and if they get me in trouble, I will get them fired.

What I think that is required to make gun-use so prevalent anywhere is just a few simple options....

1). Easy access to guns.

2). A casual attitude to their use.

3). A perception that guns are acceptable in ordinary society.

4). A society that feels and widely accepts that guns are supposed to be used to settle arguments.

5). A society that will use guns to rob and assault as they are the best tools that they can find easily to do this job.

6). A society that has an endemic gun-culture that is supported by the country's Constitution and Bill of Rights.

Any one or more of these options is liable to encourage the easy use of guns but only one country has them all.

Originally posted by Tptmanno1
I will flatly and curtly refuse to pray if a teacher asks me, and if they get me in trouble, I will get them fired.

Typ....having that kind of attitude towards a teacher is alot of whats wrong with the damn school systems. There are kids all over who think that its their way or the teacher is going to pay. I am NOT saying you should have to pray in class if it goes against your beliefs. HOWEVER I am saying that you can politely refuse and if that doesnt work you can go to the office and call your parents and have THEM come explain it. Many of todays students have absolutely NO respect for their teachers. And Im sure we will get the old "well the teacher doesnt respect me" line from someone. But you know what? There is a limit to the amount of that particular type of "respect" that the student is entitled to. You are a STUDENT, a CHILD, a TEEN whatever....and I dont care if you are 14 or 44 ALL people should have respect for people older than themselves. And the PARENTS of students shouldnt always assume that their little darling can do no wrong or is being treated unfairly. I have worked in the school system for many years and it PISSES me off to NO END, when some idiot kid has done something deliberately in violation of the rules, gets in trouble for it and not 30 minutes later here come mommy and daddy to bail their precious child out of the trouble they are in. Ive have 3 children and my son was a holy terror. And ALWAYS when I got a phone call the first thing I always said after I heard the principal or teacher out, was I'm sorry and then I said whatever punishment you see fit I will support. For that matter , when my older daughter was still in high school she had an English teacher that was admittedly an idiot. Courtney hated her with good reason. One day this teacher told my daughter to work on something specific and my daughter promptly told her to go to hell. She came down to my classroom to relay what had happened and I sent her ass right back up there to apologize for her mouth. I was raised with the phrase "you will respect your elders" drilled into my head and thats the way I raised my children. When I was 21 I was having a rather heated argument in the car with my father and I said F you to him. The man reached right across the front seat and slapped me silly. And do you know what I said in return? "I'm sorry Dad I know better."

Prayer!!! It worked back then, & guess what?? It still works today.

JP>
A) My parents will not bail me out, they are moderatly christian. not like me.
B) This is different from refusing to do an assingment. and If you notice that I said I'd curtly refuse. I'd protest if refusing to pray got me in any trouble. If you haven't noticed, I take great offence to people trying to shove their beliefs down my throat. And that is the biggest example that I can think of short of the governemnt forcing that. Forcing students to believe the way they do is just plain wrong no matter how you look at it.

Sin is the reason so much more violence is taken place today. Thats why there is more shootings, rapes, fighting, stabbings, robberies....ect You take God out of School, you bring more sin into the school system. No where have I have said anyone shld be made to pray. If somene wants to, then they shld be allowed not matter if it offends them or not, becuz them saying that, offends christians, it works both ways.

The bible is a guidline to live by, the reason you wouldn't have an entry into Heaven is obvious in the bible. Athiest/sinners: Rather you thk you've sinned or not or that your a good person & shld be allowed into heaven, The bible plainly states that Jesus said: if you deny me, i'll deny you before my Father. That to God is sin, so by the standards of the Word of God, you would not have an entry into Heaven. You have been told about Jesus, you just simply don't beleive. That is a reson for NO entry.

Respect is not only to someone that is older than you, Its anyone that is put into an authority position. Kids have gotton worse these days. I have a friend one time, Her older son was teaching her younger one to do drugs. She threatened to beat his butt off and he said if you touch me i'll call the cops on you. HMMMM you know what she did, NOTHING!!! I'M like are you CRAZY, i would have beat the living day lights out of that kid and handed him the phone to call!!! I said, LET the social services take him, does he thk its a picnic being a foster care?? NO way would my kids ever talk to me like that or threaten me like. Thats whats wrong w/alot of parents, they let their kids do what they want.

Originally posted by finti
SO then I ask again were in the constitution are these prayers then

Did i say it was in the Constitution? NOPE i said our Country was founded on God, and it was.

So the lack of God automaticly means an influx of sin?
Thats extrordinarily arrogant of you, saying that without your belief, our society would fall apart. I don't believe that thats the problem, maily more like the parents that you mentioned. the ones who either work too much or don't care, NOT the lack of God. Do you think that those kids, if their parents acted the same, would listen if you taught about God? They won't! And some kids that have parents that care, like me, still wouldn't care and wouldn't listen. lack of God isn't the problem its the lack of good parents.

Originally posted by Tptmanno1
So the lack of God automaticly means an influx of sin?
Thats extrordinarily arrogant of you, saying that without your belief, our society would fall apart. I don't believe that thats the problem, maily more like the parents that you mentioned. the ones who either work too much or don't care, NOT the lack of God. Do you think that those kids, if their parents acted the same, would listen if you taught about God? They won't! And some kids that have parents that care, like me, still wouldn't care and wouldn't listen. lack of God isn't the problem its the lack of good parents.

Can u prove to me that i'm wrong?? God is being taken out of Schools, People are fighting against IN GOD WE TRUST on are money, They fight against a kid wanting to pray at a graduation........Can you not see since taking God out has brought more crime? maybe you can't, but i sure do.

I can prove that I'm correct.
If you trace the violence back to the parents, its allways the same, careless parents.
And I would fight against prayer at graduation, or simple not do it. For the same reason.

there is nothing wrong w/you NOT praying, that is your right, your free will. and violence?? what about all the crimes and violence that does not trace back??? i would say that to most school shootings are not traced back thru the parents.

I would, and the accesability of guns.
This is not a new thing, but it used to be just fights, its escaleated into shootings due to kids being able to get their hands on guns eaiser.

We were able to get our hands on guns when we were kids, how is it moe accessible now? Kids get angry and their thought is, get a gun. NOW why didn't they have that thought 20 years ago?