Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
And who are your musical gods AC?
I don't have lots, because there aren't that many. Needless to say it doesn't matter who mine are anyway, Elton John isn't a God.
First person that storms to mind is Mike Patton. Does more for music in an album than Elton John does in his entire career. Debate that if you want. I only need reel off Patton's body of work to show you that he's more talented, versatile, adaptable and genius than Elton John can hope to be.
Jimi Hendrix for obvious reason.
Billy Corgan.
Tool as a collective.
Rush as a collective.
Elton John is like U2. Reputation legend, not talent legend. None of those bar Hendrix are as or more well known than Elton. Everyone of them are worlds more talented. Not even worth comparing.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I don't have lots, because there aren't that many. Needless to say it doesn't matter who mine are anyway, Elton John isn't a God.
AC, I ask who your musical gods are because of one reason. Musical gods are like assholes, everyones got one. Much like yourself I'm sure, I take it as a personal attack when someone badmouths them. It's like putting down my opinion.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
First person that storms to mind is Mike Patton. Does more for music in an album than Elton John does in his entire career. Debate that if you want. I only need reel off Patton's body of work to show you that he's more talented, versatile, adaptable and genius than Elton John can hope to be.
Reel away my friend. I looked the both of them up in a google search, admittedly, because I don't know who he is. In more than one interview, he was compared to an early Elton John. Not only did the interviewer compare him to Elton John, but Patton himself(on more than one occasion) said that Elton John was a major musical force in his development. And several times stating that Elton John is his favorite singer. If you want the sites, I can PM then to you.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Jimi Hendrix for obvious reason.
Sure, I'll agree that Hendrix is a great player. In many ways, Elton is the Jimi Hendrix of the piano. Hendrix set his guitar on fire, Elton did the same with his piano. Actually, he blew it up. But, Jerry Lee Lewis did the same. Elton used a bottle of tequilla. Jimi played the guitar behind his back. Elton lays on top of the piano. He plays it from underneath the piano. He plays it backwards as well.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Billy Corgan.
I liked a couple of Smashing Pumpkin's songs. Tonight was genious.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Tool as a collective.
Yeah, I'm not sure wheter to take this one seriously or not. I know you do, so I will. However, I think you might want to ellaborate on this one too.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Rush as a collective.
No comment. But they look like a really old version of U2.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Elton John is like U2. Reputation legend, not talent legend. None of those bar Hendrix are as or more well known than Elton. Everyone of them are worlds more talented. Not even worth comparing.-AC
I understand what you're trying to say. However, U2 (a band I actually like, I only own their double greatest hits, and even there there are probably on 7 or 8 songs I even listen to) is a band that has been caught up in the same money driven music industry that produced the Backstreet Boys and N'Sync. Music for profit. Now, they're alot better than the boy bands, but part of the same machine. Elton John however is part of the talented THEN profit group of artists. This group of artists who worked their asses off and were recognized by one record label and then worked their asses off to get the public to buy their albums. I understand that Mike Patton is likely the same kind of musician. That's why I had to look him up.
Don't assume that because Elton John is known in every part of the world, is one of the top selling artists of all time, has more platinum albums than most of his peers and has a thirty year career that he has been force fed to the public. Elton John sat down at the piano when he was four years old and started playing what he heard on the radio, by ear. Elton John didn't release his first album and shoot to super stardom. He released his second album and went to America, where he exploded into this huge sensation. Just like the Beatles and any number of other legendary artists. Now, I'm willing to admit he isn't really a god, but then again, no one is. I'm also willing to admit that he has released so shitty shitty albums. But, I also willing to bet that Jimi Hendrix would have to, if he hadn't died at such a young age.
I'm also willing to admit that Elton John is no David Bowie. He hasn't spawned a whole new genre of music. What Elton does is take music in his genre to a new level. Even Billy Joel has stated that his music went in a different direction because he saw what Elton John was doing and said if he took his music to a whole new level, then it would be a sad immitation of Elton John.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Reel away my friend. I looked the both of them up in a google search, admittedly, because I don't know who he is. In more than one interview, he was compared to an early Elton John. Not only did the interviewer compare him to Elton John, but Patton himself(on more than one occasion) said that Elton John was a major musical force in his development. And several times stating that Elton John is his favorite singer. If you want the sites, I can PM then to you.
Jimi had influences, he's still better than any of them. Comparing Patton to Elton John is seriously silly if you know who Mike Patton is.
Discography:
The Real Thing, Angel Dust, King for a Day Fool for a Lifetime, Album of the year all by Faith No More. Possibly and arguably the most influential band of the last decade or more.
Self titled, Disco Volante, California by Mr. Bungle. One of the most out there, afraid of nothing, experimental genius bands to exist.
Self titled, Mit Gas by Tomahawk. Rock, hard, but not like any other Hard Rock out there.
Amunaza Del Mundo, The Director's Cut, Delirivm Cordia, Suspended Animation by Fantomas. One of the craziest, most ambitious bands. Although that applies to every Patton band. Delirivm Cordia being one of the most frightening, disturbing, genius masterpieces of an album to ever be created.
Adult Themes for Voice, Pranza Oltranzista by Himself. Classical meets everything else in a car crash, basically. Sounds beautiful, astounding, insane. I'll keep going....
General Patton Vs The X-Ecutioners by Himself and The X-Ecutioners. Yes, a Hip Hop album better than most Hip Hop albums.
Irony Is a Dead Scene by The Dillinger Escape Plan and himself. Another giant slab of "Look what I can do because I'm a musical God."
Other albums include: Kaada-Patton collabo, he has collabo'd with Bjork, not to mention Dan the Automator with Lovage.
He's created more influencial, genius, broad, varied and adaptable music over his career than Elton John. Comparing the two is ridiculous.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Sure, I'll agree that Hendrix is a great player. In many ways, Elton is the Jimi Hendrix of the piano. Hendrix set his guitar on fire, Elton did the same with his piano. Actually, he blew it up. But, Jerry Lee Lewis did the same. Elton used a bottle of tequilla. Jimi played the guitar behind his back. Elton lays on top of the piano. He plays it from underneath the piano. He plays it backwards as well.
Elton John is the Jimi Hendrix of the Piano? Are you a joking? The man is a great pianist......that's it. He's no Tori Amos. Him playing piano in different positions doesn't equate to Hendrix's ability to create otherworldly guitar music. I could learn and easily play Elton John stuff. No guitarist could say the same with Hendrix.
Originally posted by Da Moose
Yeah, I'm not sure wheter to take this one seriously or not. I know you do, so I will. However, I think you might want to ellaborate on this one too.
Tool = The greatest band on Earth. Collectively more musically gifted than but a few bands. I view them as a whole, a musical God.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
No comment. But they look like a really old version of U2.
U2 aren't worthy of being Rush road crew.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
I understand what you're trying to say. However, U2 (a band I actually like, I only own their double greatest hits, and even there there are probably on 7 or 8 songs I even listen to) is a band that has been caught up in the same money driven music industry that produced the Backstreet Boys and N'Sync. Music for profit. Now, they're alot better than the boy bands, but part of the same machine. Elton John however is part of the talented THEN profit group of artists. This group of artists who worked their asses off and were recognized by one record label and then worked their asses off to get the public to buy their albums. I understand that Mike Patton is likely the same kind of musician. That's why I had to look him up.
Elton is talented, I respect the man and what he's done. I'd only call his reputation legendary though. Not his music. Because Mike Patton, if anyone, is worthy of the label musical God. On sheer ability alone.
Nobody is the same kind of musician as Mike Patton.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Don't assume that because Elton John is known in every part of the world, is one of the top selling artists of all time, has more platinum albums than most of his peers and has a thirty year career that he has been force fed to the public. Elton John sat down at the piano when he was four years old and started playing what he heard on the radio, by ear. Elton John didn't release his first album and shoot to super stardom. He released his second album and went to America, where he exploded into this huge sensation. Just like the Beatles and any number of other legendary artists. Now, I'm willing to admit he isn't really a god, but then again, no one is. I'm also willing to admit that he has released so shitty shitty albums. But, I also willing to bet that Jimi Hendrix would have to, if he hadn't died at such a young age.
Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa.
You can't sit there and say Jimi Hendrix would have released shit just because Elton has. The two shouldn't even be compared. I mentioned Hendrix coz you asked for my opinion on musical Gods.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
I'm also willing to admit that Elton John is no David Bowie. He hasn't spawned a whole new genre of music. What Elton does is take music in his genre to a new level. Even Billy Joel has stated that his music went in a different direction because he saw what Elton John was doing and said if he took his music to a whole new level, then it would be a sad immitation of Elton John.
Patton has spawned bands, genres, ways of making music.
Bands and genres exist because of Patton.
-AC
Of course Elton John can't create otherworldly music. He playing a piano. It's kinda hard to pull off a guitar rift on the piano. It's how he couples his piano with other instruments that give it other worldly sounds. And I've never heard backing vocals like his. Those alone are worthy of the highest praise.
Tool? Come on? Are YOU joking? There's nothing original about pissed off guys and 15 dueling guitars.
Tori Amos? Tori Amos would cream in her jeans to have Elton Johns talent.
And it's certainly possible that Jimi Hendrix would have released shit albums if had lived. Or, like so many other artists of his time, he would have dragged on and on, not releasing new music and playing the same songs of his five or six albums.(that's just an example, I don't know how many albums he released.) And I'm not saying that he could release shit becasue Elton has. I'm saying it's possible. You can't say for sure, can you?
And Elton has done a lot for music. He and his producer discovered that it was hard to get music from a piano to recor without pits in teh sound. So, they developed a double stack piano, that is still in use all over the world.
Basically, what the end result of you and I going back and forth is going to be that our opinions differ. We can go back and forth if you want, but at the end of it all, it's all going to be personal opinion. You can take that as me backing off, but it's isn't. I'm willing to go around and around.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Of course Elton John can't create otherworldly music. He playing a piano. It's kinda hard to pull off a guitar rift on the piano. It's how he couples his piano with other instruments that give it other worldly sounds. And I've never heard backing vocals like his. Those alone are worthy of the highest praise.
I've heard better backing vocals than his, miles better. I'm sure lots of people on this board can say the same thing. You had to Google Mike Patton and Rush so I'm not sure if you're coming to debate this with a limited view of music.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Tool? Come on? Are YOU joking? There's nothing original about pissed off guys and 15 dueling guitars.
I agree.
Say something about Tool though, that's the band I referenced.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Tori Amos? Tori Amos would cream in her jeans to have Elton Johns talent.
She wouldn't though would she? Lets be honest. Saying they're all lame compared to Elton doesn't work. Tori Amos is much more talented than Elton John. On the piano and as a songwriter.
You're just making blind jabs at anyone who isn't Elton without even knowing who they are or having listened to them in depth. Which is what you're doing and you've proven that.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
And it's certainly possible that Jimi Hendrix would have released shit albums if had lived. Or, like so many other artists of his time, he would have dragged on and on, not releasing new music and playing the same songs of his five or six albums.(that's just an example, I don't know how many albums he released.) And I'm not saying that he could release shit becasue Elton has. I'm saying it's possible. You can't say for sure, can you?
I'm not saying it isn't possible, I'm saying you've got a lot of nerve and gaul to assume he would just because Elton John has put out lots of it. If you release a hundred albums and 50 of them are good, it doesn't make you a good artist. Elton's shit has almost levelled his decent stuff, which is already way overrated.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
And Elton has done a lot for music. He and his producer discovered that it was hard to get music from a piano to recor without pits in teh sound. So, they developed a double stack piano, that is still in use all over the world.
Yeah, so they brought usage of an instrument about. Great.
Hardly the same as saying he's created genres, spawned bands and revolutionised genres. Coz he hasn't.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Basically, what the end result of you and I going back and forth is going to be that our opinions differ. We can go back and forth if you want, but at the end of it all, it's all going to be personal opinion. You can take that as me backing off, but it's isn't. I'm willing to go around and around.
Well, it's not. Because Elton isn't anywhere near worthy of Hendrix comparison, he's not worthy of Patton comparison, or any of those people I mentioned. The closest comparison is Tori Amos and if you wanna get technical she's better than him.
-AC
Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Little bit arrogant and ignorant to debate against an unknown opponent.
In referrence to both of you. No, I have heard Tool. I have MTV. Nothing original about them, save their music videos from what I hear people say. I don't watch a lot of MTV.
Whisper: I told you I saw it somewhere. I hate to do it. Follow the link, and there is your review of Tumbleweed Connection
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
In referrence to both of you. No, I have heard Tool. I have MTV. Nothing original about them, save their music videos from what I hear people say. I don't watch a lot of MTV.
Like he said.
Arrogant to judge an unknown opponent. If all you know of Tool is what you've seen on MTV, you know next to nothing of them. Because to say they have no originality is absolutely preposterous.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I've heard better backing vocals than his, miles better. I'm sure lots of people on this board can say the same thing. You had to Google Mike Patton and Rush so I'm not sure if you're coming to debate this with a limited view of music.I agree.
Say something about Tool though, that's the band I referenced.
She wouldn't though would she? Lets be honest. Saying they're all lame compared to Elton doesn't work. Tori Amos is much more talented than Elton John. On the piano and as a songwriter.
You're just making blind jabs at anyone who isn't Elton without even knowing who they are or having listened to them in depth. Which is what you're doing and you've proven that.
I'm not saying it isn't possible, I'm saying you've got a lot of nerve and gaul to assume he would just because Elton John has put out lots of it. If you release a hundred albums and 50 of them are good, it doesn't make you a good artist. Elton's shit has almost levelled his decent stuff, which is already way overrated.
Yeah, so they brought usage of an instrument about. Great.
Hardly the same as saying he's created genres, spawned bands and revolutionised genres. Coz he hasn't.
Well, it's not. Because Elton isn't anywhere near worthy of Hendrix comparison, he's not worthy of Patton comparison, or any of those people I mentioned. The closest comparison is Tori Amos and if you wanna get technical she's better than him.
-AC
Come on AC, you're full of shit. I also realize that we are not of the same opinion. Unlike yourself, I'm not trying to insult you for your opinion, am I? But, give me a few minutes and I'll show you how many bands and artist were influenced by Elton John.
As for my musical influences, I have a variety. I know I'm arguing for Elton in this thread, but I am not limited in my appreciation for other music.
By all means, feel free to tell me what musical genres this Patton fellow has created.
And I stand by my opinion that Tool is shit.
As for me making "blind jabs" at people who aren't Elton, I did no such thing. I admitted that I didn't know who this Mike Patton fellow was. So, I looked him up. And what I found was article after article about how Elton John was a major influence in his life. So, you could say that an indirect way, one of his contributions to music IS people like Mike Patton..from Pattons own mouth! Conversely, what do you know about Elton John's music? You wouldn't make ignorant statements like: "Elton John is just a reputation", not inspired music. Rush: I have heard of Rush, I just don't listen to theri music. You hear the names of bands on the radio, you can change the station without knowing what they look like.
And I'm fighting an uphill battle. I've mentioned one of my musical influences. You're using 4 or 5 of yours. But I have others. David Bowie, John Lennon, Gregg Alexander, The Beatles, Billy Joel, Sting, DJ Milky, Moby, Jerry Lee Lewis, Dirty Vegas, Eric Clapton. And I would take Elton over any of them.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Like he said.Arrogant to judge an unknown opponent. If all you know of Tool is what you've seen on MTV, you know next to nothing of them. Because to say they have no originality is absolutely preposterous.
-AC
Originality doesn't denote musical greatness. Yoko Ono was original, what do you think of her?
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Exactly.Thanks for posting what I hoped you would.
We're not discussing originality are we? You brought it up.
If you think Elton John is a better musician than anyone of Tool, you obviously lack talent perception. He plays piano well. That's it.
-AC
Yes, I said original, but I was reffering to what people have said about them. Not what I think. I don't think much of them. In ten years, you look back and we'll see who is still around and who has been left on the pop rock pile of obscurity.
Speaking of which, is that tool in Doom's signature?
Talent perception? What makes yours more valid than mine?
Piano? And that's it? Go out there and find me some evidence from a known musical talent professional that says that Tool is more infulential or talented than any of the people I've mention.
You cannot compare musicians of different instruments, and especially of completely different genres. I love Tool, I find them fascinating and I think Danny is one of the greatest drummers ever. I would give anything for just a fraction of his talent. But you cannot compare them to Elton John because they are complete opposites. They are all great at what they do, however.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Yes, I said original, but I was reffering to what people have said about them. Not what I think. I don't think much of them. In ten years, you look back and we'll see who is still around and who has been left on the pop rock pile of obscurity.
Speaking of which, is that tool in Doom's signature?
Yeah, ironically Tool have been around since 92. *Tumbleweed*
Haha. No it's not. It's Mike Patton, Chris Cornell, Maynard James Keenan (of Tool) and Jeff Buckley. 4 of the greatest singers of all time. Rather uninformed aren't you?
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Talent perception? What makes yours more valid than mine?Piano? And that's it? Go out there and find me some evidence from a known musical talent professional that says that Tool is more infulential or talented than any of the people I've mention.
Mine's more valid because I know and have listened to Tool. You have heard the odd song on MTV which is basically saying they're unknown to you. I said if you think Elton John is musically more gifted than Tool then you have no talent perception or a lack of.
Why do I need evidence from a known musical talent professional? It's still gonna be someone commenting. I know that no bands are scientifically provable to be better than another but Tool are more musically talented than Elton John.
It's just stupid to think otherwise. Not saying you are stupid, just a stupid opinion.
Tool have been hailed numerous times as the most important band in the world.
This isn't about who is more influencial, not that Elton would win because he isn't. It's about you calling him a God, he's not. Because he's just a legend. Yes, JUST a legend. He's rated for antiquity more than talent because as far as talent goes, he's not what you claim he is.
You googled pictures and write-ups of almost everyone I've mentioned thus far. I suggest you listen extensively to the albums before you debate on the artist.
You have no valid opinion on Tool because.....well.....you don't know who they are and frankly, I mean no offense, but I think you're being biased toward Elton John.
-AC