Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yeah, ironically Tool have been around since 92. *Tumbleweed*Haha. No it's not. It's Mike Patton, Chris Cornell, Maynard James Keenan (of Tool) and Jeff Buckley. 4 of the greatest singers of all time. Rather uninformed aren't you?
Mine's more valid because I know and have listened to Tool. You have heard the odd song on MTV which is basically saying they're unknown to you. I said if you think Elton John is musically more gifted than Tool then you have no talent perception or a lack of.
Why do I need evidence from a known musical talent professional? It's still gonna be someone commenting. I know that no bands are scientifically provable to be better than another but Tool are more musically talented than Elton John.
It's just stupid to think otherwise. Not saying you are stupid, just a stupid opinion.
Tool have been hailed numerous times as the most important band in the world.
This isn't about who is more influencial, not that Elton would win because he isn't. It's about you calling him a God, he's not. Because he's just a legend. Yes, JUST a legend. He's rated for antiquity more than talent because as far as talent goes, he's not what you claim he is.
You googled pictures and write-ups of almost everyone I've mentioned thus far. I suggest you listen extensively to the albums before you debate on the artist.
You have no valid opinion on Tool because.....well.....you don't know who they are and frankly, I mean no offense, but I think you're being biased toward Elton John.
-AC
What's the "tumbleweed" comment about?
Oh no, I assumes at least the third guy in his sig was a member of tool, because you posted a picture of yourself in the same get up in the picture thread. You're right, I don't know what these people look like. But, my radio doesn't have a picture display. The music channels on cable only display a picture of the album cover in teh top left corner of the screen. Not the best way to know what someone looks like.
If there is no way to scientifically prove that one band is better than another, then you have no factual basis to say that Tool is better. Much less that I have a lack of talent perception, because that is only limited to the person listening to the music. As I said before, it's an opinion.
Elton John has been hailed as one of the most important rock atrists by numerous people and articles. In fact, he's been hailed as one of the most important artists in rock since his first american review, in 1970. When John Lennon met him, he fell on his knees at the bottom of the steps of the airplane.
I also suggest that you listen extensivly to Elton John. I have 54 of his albums. If you want me to burn you some copies, I'd be happy to. Because as little as I know about Tool, you know just as little about Elton.
And I'll never say I'm not biased towards Elton John. But, there is some basis to my biased. But when people say that he's a okay, I'll leave it at that. but when peole say that there's a better rock/pop/ballad piano player anywhere in the world, then that simply is not true. That is a stupid opinion. And I'm not the only one that would say that.
What it reminds me of is when I was in high school and people would ask "hey, who's your favorite artist?" And I'd say, "Elton John". They'd go: "What?! The Lion King Guy? Isn't he gay?" And it was their total lack of musical knowledge that gave them that opinion.
And if I'm being biased against Tool, because Elton John is my favorite, then Ac, you are guilty of the same with Tool. They're your favorite, and Elton is mine.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
If there is no way to scientifically prove that one band is better than another, then you have no factual basis to say that Tool is better. Much less that I have a lack of talent perception, because that is only limited to the person listening to the music. As I said before, it's an opinion.
I cannot prove Tool make better music no. Then again, you can't prove Elton John makes better music than Britney. He does though doesn't he? We just know that.
Tool are actually more instrumentally gifted than Elton though.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Elton John has been hailed as one of the most important rock atrists by numerous people and articles. In fact, he's been hailed as one of the most important artists in rock since his first american review, in 1970. When John Lennon met him, he fell on his knees at the bottom of the steps of the airplane.
Yeah but John Lennon, a musician I admire, respect and for the most part I love his music. There's another one who's overrated. Imagine wins best song ever almost everytime. It's just not, it's nowhere near. John Lennon loving him doesn't mean Elton John is any better than I claim he is.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
I also suggest that you listen extensivly to Elton John. I have 54 of his albums. If you want me to burn you some copies, I'd be happy to. Because as little as I know about Tool, you know just as little about Elton.
Whoa, major ignorance there.
I know more of Elton John and Tool than you know of the pair. You know more of Elton than I, I know more of Tool than you. At least I know of Elton fairly well though, you know nothing of Tool. Either way, knowing alot or not, Elton John isn't as instrumentally gifted as Tool. Nor is he, in my opinion (which I believe to be pretty academic) anywhere near as talented.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
And I'll never say I'm not biased towards Elton John. But, there is some basis to my biased. But when people say that he's a okay, I'll leave it at that. but when peole say that there's a better rock/pop/ballad piano player anywhere in the world, then that simply is not true. That is a stupid opinion. And I'm not the only one that would say that.
So? Your opinion that Elton John should be mentioned in the same vein as Hendrix, Tool and Patton is more stupid than someone saying "Elton John isn't the best" at whatever.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
What it reminds me of is when I was in high school and people would ask "hey, who's your favorite artist?" And I'd say, "Elton John". They'd go: "What?! The Lion King Guy? Isn't he gay?" And it was their total lack of musical knowledge that gave them that opinion.And if I'm being biased against Tool, because Elton John is my favorite, then Ac, you are guilty of the same with Tool. They're your favorite, and Elton is mine.
I don't judge favourite though. Tool are my favourite band but there have been better bands as far as musicianship go. There aren't many, but there have been.
You're just cloudy visioning it.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I cannot prove Tool make better music no. Then again, you can't prove Elton John makes better music than Britney. He does though doesn't he? We just know that.
No, YOU just know that. There are people out there who think that Britney makes better music than Elton. I'm gay, I've run into them before. That doesn't mean that they can't have their opinion. And it doesn't mean that they can't find someone out there who agrees with them.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Tool are actually more instrumentally gifted than Elton though.
Once again, this is your opinion. Just as Elton being better is mine. How many of the members of tool just sat down in front of the instrument they play and just started to play it? Elton was four when his mom was "hoovering" (as they say in your part of the world) she told him to get off the floor and sit on the piano bench until she was done. By the time she had fininshed vacuuming, she noticed he was playing the jingle that was on the radio.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yeah but John Lennon, a musician I admire, respect and for the most part I love his music. There's another one who's overrated. Imagine wins best song ever almost everytime. It's just not, it's nowhere near. John Lennon loving him doesn't mean Elton John is any better than I claim he is.
You're saying you are a better judge of musical talent than John Lennon? And don't sacrifice your opinion of Lennon to drive your point that Tool is the greatest EVER!
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Whoa, major ignorance there.I know more of Elton John and Tool than you know of the pair. You know more of Elton than I, I know more of Tool than you. At least I know of Elton fairly well though, you know nothing of Tool. Either way, knowing alot or not, Elton John isn't as instrumentally gifted as Tool. Nor is he, in my opinion (which I believe to be pretty academic) anywhere near as talented.
You know more of the pair than I do? Please AC, get over yourself. What makes your opinion academic? Were you accepted to Royal Academy of music when you were 11, like Elton was? That's academic. I said originally, unclearly I know, that Elton John was a musical god...by this I meant he was one of MY musical gods. I never said that my opinion was academic. I'm sure there are a lot of music professors out there going: "Hey, you know, those Tool chaps have such dynamic and profound chords! Why, let's write them into musical history!" It's just not happening. Elton however, perfected his playing by studying with those kinds of people.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
So? Your opinion that Elton John should be mentioned in the same vein as Hendrix, Tool and Patton is more stupid than someone saying "Elton John isn't the best" at whatever.
Yes. I believe that Elton is as talented at his instrument as Hendrix was at his. I think you might need to re examine saying that Tool is as good as Elton John. And I don't know Patton. I said as much. I can't say he isn't as good as Elton. But, what I do know is that he himself has said that Elton John was one of his major influences and that he was one of the greatest singers. So, to argue that is like disagreeing with the musical talent you claim to be the pinnicle of your musical influence.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I don't judge favourite though. Tool are my favourite band but there have been better bands as far as musicianship go. There aren't many, but there have been.
So, you're saying that you don't judge by favorite, but Tool is your favorite and they just happen(suddenly) to only be ONE OF the greatest bands of all time, more gifted than ALMOST anyone who comes before or after?
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
No, YOU just know that. There are people out there who think that Britney makes better music than Elton. I'm gay, I've run into them before. That doesn't mean that they can't have their opinion. And it doesn't mean that they can't find someone out there who agrees with them.
They can have their opinion. There is such thing as a shit opinion though. There are something that are as close to fact as you'll get without them actually being facts. I'd say Britney being shit is one.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Once again, this is your opinion. Just as Elton being better is mine. How many of the members of tool just sat down in front of the instrument they play and just started to play it? Elton was four when his mom was "hoovering" (as they say in your part of the world) she told him to get off the floor and sit on the piano bench until she was done. By the time she had fininshed vacuuming, she noticed he was playing the jingle that was on the radio.
Yeah, he's a great pianist. I never said he wasn't, I am a pianist and I respect him greatly. There are better though, better musicians. Tool put out better music.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
You're saying you are a better judge of musical talent than John Lennon? And don't sacrifice your opinion of Lennon to drive your point that Tool is the greatest EVER!
I'm saying I'm a judge of musical talent, we all are. John Lennon loving the man doesn't make him any better. Britney Spears could buy a Tool CD, it doesn't mean she has great music taste. Just means she hit the one great band.
Just we both know, isn't proveable. Elton John being as great as you claim isn't one of those near-fact things though, because it's easily deniable when you compare him to others.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
You know more of the pair than I do? Please AC, get over yourself. What makes your opinion academic? Were you accepted to Royal Academy of music when you were 11, like Elton was? That's academic. I said originally, unclearly I know, that Elton John was a musical god...by this I meant he was one of MY musical gods. I never said that my opinion was academic. I'm sure there are a lot of music professors out there going: "Hey, you know, those Tool chaps have such dynamic and profound chords! Why, let's write them into musical history!" It's just not happening. Elton however, perfected his playing by studying with those kinds of people.
If he's one of yours, that's all well and good.
You know nothing of half of what we're debating. Essentially Elton John.......Vs Tool. I know about more about Elton than you know of Tool, and more of Tool than you know of Tool, which is nothing.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Yes. I believe that Elton is as talented at his instrument as Hendrix was at his. I think you might need to re examine saying that Tool is as good as Elton John. And I don't know Patton. I said as much. I can't say he isn't as good as Elton. But, what I do know is that he himself has said that Elton John was one of his major influences and that he was one of the greatest singers. So, to argue that is like disagreeing with the musical talent you claim to be the pinnicle of your musical influence.
No pianist can ever be as good as a guitarist like Hendrix. Purely coz of instruments involved. Elton John hasn't done stuff on a piano that has never been surpassed. Jimi Hendrix has.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
So, you're saying that you don't judge by favorite, but Tool is your favorite and they just happen(suddenly) to only be ONE OF the greatest bands of all time, more gifted than ALMOST anyone who comes before or after?
You wanna make the connection? You do that.
I love music enough to not be biased when it comes down to talent. If you wanna assume that's what I'm doing, do so.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
They can have their opinion. There is such thing as a shit opinion though. There are something that are as close to fact as you'll get without them actually being facts. I'd say Britney being shit is one.Yeah, he's a great pianist. I never said he wasn't, I am a pianist and I respect him greatly. There are better though, better musicians. Tool put out better music.
I'm saying I'm a judge of musical talent, we all are. John Lennon loving the man doesn't make him any better. Britney Spears could buy a Tool CD, it doesn't mean she has great music taste. Just means she hit the one great band.
Just we both know, isn't proveable. Elton John being as great as you claim isn't one of those near-fact things though, because it's easily deniable when you compare him to others.
If he's one of yours, that's all well and good.
You know nothing of half of what we're debating. Essentially Elton John.......Vs Tool. I know about more about Elton than you know of Tool, and more of Tool than you know of Tool, which is nothing.
No pianist can ever be as good as a guitarist like Hendrix. Purely coz of instruments involved. Elton John hasn't done stuff on a piano that has never been surpassed. Jimi Hendrix has.
You wanna make the connection? You do that.
I love music enough to not be biased when it comes down to talent. If you wanna assume that's what I'm doing, do so.
-AC
Good argument AC, we'll get back to it tomorrow. I have to get in the shower. It's almost 6:30, I have to go out. I think we've been arguing all day. See you then. And I didn't make that connection, you did.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Yes. I believe that Elton is as talented at his instrument as Hendrix was at his.
Possibly the most laughable thing I have read on this forum.
Out of interest, could you post the links to these myriad articles where Mike Patton cites Reg as an influence? As far as I was aware, I had read most of the interviews the man has done, so this is something I'd like to read.
Sure they'll make interesting reading.
http://www.flashinghobo.com/patton_interview.htm
http://jimmartin.tarantella.net/articles/fnm/1995/950300SM.htm
http://www.digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/best_z-prev/ly_lyricists2.html
http://www.cv.org/index.php?page=4&subject=Mike%20Patton
http://jimmartin.tarantella.net/articles/solo/guitmag.htm
http://www.live-aid.info/rewind/bbc/pages/060eltonjohn.html
There are more if you want them.
A) The first one (I've scanned it 3 times) doesn't show him citing Elton as a major major influence.
B) The second one states he was a big fan. Not that he cited him as a major major influence, because as he isn't. It's evident from the music.
C) Third is a list voted for by loads of yahoos. Have you bothered to read the other lists? Alot of their choices are by reputation. Rarely do they hit the mark. For the most part they don't have a clue. Have you seen the drummers, guitarist and bassist polls? Some of their decisions are terrible. Not to mention you posting that doesn't prove Elton John has been cited as a major major influence, as you claim. But let's continue...
D) Once again, it shows he's a fan. So what? Where is he saying that Elton John is a major influence to what he creates? Are you making a blind connection?
E) "Patton's favourite singers are Elton John..." Yeah? So? I have favourites. Favourite doesn't equal inspiration. 5 interviews of nothing as far as backing up your claims go. Can we make it a 6th?
F) Not too sure what you're trying to prove with this. Just see that there's a David Patton on bass. Let's hope I'm overlooking what you're trying to show me.
So once again I make a request, can you show me where it shows Mike Patton citing Elton John as this major, major influence that you claim he is?
Elton John would, to steal your phrase, cream his pants to have Mike Patton's talent. Ironically, all the interviews you posted show why. The man is world's more talented and varied.
-AC
The point of all of them is that Patton repeatedly states that he a big fan, then there are reviews by a number of people that state that he has released songs that sound like Elton John. I searcehed the net for reviews where anyone made a statement that "Elton seems to have been influence by former "faith No More frontman Mike Patton. (granted, I'm sure their opinions are less academic than your own) However, there are dozens of reviews in which people say "Patton seems to have been influenced by Elton John. Now, I know it's a huge leap here, but when an artist states that he's a big fan of someone, that he's one of his favorite singers, then has a review from several sources stating that some of his music sounds like that artist...it's a pretty safe bet that he has been influenced by that artist.
There was a cybertalk chat transcript with a group called Mr Bungle, in which Patton says that he was influenced by Elton John. I'm gonna keep looking for it. I think I saved that live aide url instead of that one. Clearly, I realize that David Patton isn't the same guy.
Yeah he is a big fan, so what?
A few people say a couple of songs sound akin to Elton John. Yeah? And?
Where does it show, in anything you've produced, that Elton John is a major influence to the bodies of music that Mike Patton creates? It doesn't because he's not. This coming from someone who knows more about Mike Patton and his music than you do, Mr. Had to Google him.
You're missing the point. Reviewers saying he SEEMS to be influenced by Elton John (and there aren't huge amounts) and him being a major influence over Patton's works (which was your claim) are two vastly different ball parks. Patton's a fan and the song Pink Cigarette by Mr. Bungle was said to sound vaguely like an Elton John song. He's not a major major influence and if you're gonna continue to be so deluded in claiming so, knock yourself out. But don't bring it up if you can't prove it.
Why is it a safe bet that he's influenced majorly, just because a few reviewers happened to say the ODD SONG sounds like an Elton John song? You're making a very blind and presumptuous, benefit of the doubt, biased connection.
-AC
I'm not asking you to stop.
You carry on all you want my friend. Your sheer pig ignorance in claiming that my respect and admiration for those artists is my reason for rating them so highly is your downfall.
You are biased toward Elton John, admittedly. Just because you can't get over your favouritism and see who is the more talented, regardless, doesn't mean I'm doing the same and if you're being so deluded in thinking so, then I pity you.
You've already admitted you're wrong, I've proven you wrong. Even with 6 or more interviews you couldn't prove shit. So what you think of my standpoint is irrelevant.
-AC
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
http://www.flashinghobo.com/patton_interview.htmhttp://jimmartin.tarantella.net/articles/fnm/1995/950300SM.htm
http://www.digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/best_z-prev/ly_lyricists2.html
http://www.cv.org/index.php?page=4&subject=Mike%20Patton
http://jimmartin.tarantella.net/articles/solo/guitmag.htm
http://www.live-aid.info/rewind/bbc/pages/060eltonjohn.html
There are more if you want them.
Perhaps some that say he was an influence, as requested.