Oh, and Col. John Chivington who lead the troops that were involved in the Wounded Knee Massacre was a preacher before he was a Colnel and was supposedly a very religious man.
Gregory, Are you saying that God did teach people to commit genocide, just that they were supposed to stop after Christ taught us to act peacefully?
Originally posted by Turbo-Cajun
Gregory, Are you saying that God did teach people to commit genocide, just that they were supposed to stop after Christ taught us to act peacefully?
I'm an atheist, so I'm not saying that God did anything. And how Christians reconsile the Old and New Testimants is entirely their problem. I'm simply pointing out that those who seek to convert others by force are acting contrary to Christ's teachings.
I'm checking out the link you provided me even as I speak. But when I actually look the passages up in my Bible, a different picture emerges.
'Levitcus 19:20 "If a man has sex with a slave girl he is not to be punished. She is a slave."'
No. What the Bible says is that he will not be put to death. It is still a bad thing--the Bible calls it a sin and demands that a guilt offering be payed.
""When you go to war against your enemies and you see a beautiful woman and find her desirable, you may take her. If she ceases to please you send her away." Deut. 21:10"
This is technically true, but if you read the passage, you'll realize that it is intended to protect the girl. If you desire a girl, you may take her to her home. After that, you have to leave her alone for a month--so that she can mourn--and then either marry her or let her go free. You absolutely may not sell her; "You must not treat her as a slave, since you have dishonered her."
"The Bible makes clear that rape is only acceptable conduct when practiced against foreigners and slaves. If a rape happens within the country itself, according to the Biblical law, you must stone to death rape victims.
"If a man rapes a girl in the city, you must stone him to death, and the woman as well." Deut. 22:24"
Yes, this is true. And it's bad; but if you read the relevant verses, you'll see that there's a reason for it--because the communities are so small, the girl could call out for help and more or less be guaranteed of getting it. Of course, it's stupid--the girl's mouth could be covered, or she could be threatened into silence--but not arbirarily cruel in the way that that passage, taken out of context, suggests.
I'm pretty sure that he's confused about several aspects of Jewish culture--specifically, what being unclean means. He talks about how orgasm is a sin, menstration is a sin, etcetera--no. They make a person unclean, and require ritual purification, but that's not the same as being sinful. Killing people in battle also makes one unclean, but is clearly not views as a sin.
"Surprisingly, while you must not eat 'road kill' yourself you can sell it to foreigners, and it is not a sin.
Dueteronomy 14:21 You shall not eat anything that you find that is dead; you may give it to the stranger who is within your towns, that he may eat it, or you may sell it to a foreigner."
Well, maybe. But my Bible (I'm using the CarperCollins Study Bible, New Revised Standard Edition) translates this as "eat anything that dies of itself." That is, of natural causes. This is religious law. And the reason you can sell it to foreigners, of course, is that since they're not Jews, they don't have to follow Jewish law. Hardly sinister.
I've already said that I'm an atheist. And I think that the Bible has a lot of very bad stuff in it, especially in the Old Testimant. But that page stinks of either bad research or outright dishonesty.
Originally posted by Gregory
I'm an atheist, so I'm not saying that God did anything. And how Christians reconsile the Old and New Testimants is entirely their problem. I'm simply pointing out that those who seek to convert others by force are acting contrary to Christ's teachings.
And even when not converting others by force. There is always that bit about.. if you don't believe in god, then you go to hell and burn forever in a pit of eternal torment. So.. either way.. no matter the method of persuasion involved. There is always pressure applied and threats made. Refusal to worship either met with penalty of death or torture or both, or the instillment of the idea that not worshipping this god and no other meant suffering horrors beyond imagination for all time after death.
Considering everything meantioned in this thread and that which the Bible teaches.. I'd have to say.. God isn't that full of mercy, or love, or justice, doesn't promote peace, doesn't teach equaility of race or sex. But he does threaten, he does demand, though he allows free will he punishes those who'd use that freedom in choosing not to worship him, wants people to enslave eachother, kill eachother, brutalize eachother, rape virgins, kill innocent people, torture unbelievers until they either swear to follow him or die.
God is not a nice guy if that's how he really is.. and if he even exists. And I gotta tell ya.. if he's really teaching people to kill and rape and pillage.. then.. I wouldn't want to go to his "kingdom" his "heaven". I'd rather fade into nothing when I die than grovel at the feet of such a tyrant in the afterlife.
But hey, that's just my opinion.
Vash, I'm agreeing with you here.
Gregory, none of those verses you point out contradict the idea of a God that supports genocide. Kiddnapping beautiful woman and dividing virgins amongst themselves instead of killing them all does not lead me to think that God is anymore merciful (If he does exist). If that is somehow better I fail to see how. Many victims of rape consider rape a more heinous crime than murder. I think that that those verses supports raping your enemies women. Dividing up virgins amongst yourselves? mmm.... So add that up on top of genocide and you have a holy book that has rules and justifications given by god to commit half the crimes recognized under modern international law.
I didn't really get the thing about not eating things you find dead, but thats okay to give to foriegners as particularly hateful except that it reinforces hatefulness or barriers between "God's people" and everyone else. Maybe giving foreigners roadkill is their idea of "compassionate conservatism"... but then again I don't really understand Christians and how they think that well. I'm just analyzing what I read in the Bible. And yes, some different versions of the Bible use different language. Sometimes this does radically change the meaning of the verse. Yet another reason to challenge the Bible as an absolute source of truth.
Originally posted by Turbo-Cajun
Gregory, none of those verses you point out contradict the idea of a God that supports genocide. Kiddnapping beautiful woman and dividing virgins amongst themselves instead of killing them all does not lead me to think that God is anymore merciful (If he does exist). If that is somehow better I fail to see how. Many victims of rape consider rape a more heinous crime than murder. I think that that those verses supports raping your enemies women. Dividing up virgins amongst yourselves? mmm.... So add that up on top of genocide and you have a holy book that has rules and justifications given by god to commit half the crimes recognized under modern international law.
I wasn't aware that I was trying to contradict anything, other than the validity of some of your link's examples.
Moses, incidently, was probably a great deal less lenient than he might have been with the women because they essentially caused the conflict--another thing you won't see in your link, but which is evident in the actual Biblical passage. I'm not defending his actions--they were abhorent. That doesn't mean, however, that it's okay to take verses out of context and leave out explanatory material in order to make the early Christians seem even worse than they were--that's dishonest.
Greg is on the money here - those (well known) examples all overstate the case of what most biblical translations actually say. By willfully making the already ridiculous seem even more so you allow your opponents to concentrate on your exaggeration rather than the original point.
I like to call it "Michael Mooreism" - making a good point, badly.
I checked several different versions of the Bible before posting.
I chose that site because it had a lot of good examples in one, easy to read location.
If you want to analyze different translations of the Bible this is the resource I used.
It doesnt sound much better in any of the other versions.
I don't think that these verses become any less genocidal when written using different wording for the same basic ideas.
There certainly seems to be rather unpleasant overtones in part parts of the bible, and I felt motivated to have a bit of a look. It really does seem, from a historical point of view that it is very much two books. Pre Christ God appeared very war like, and, frankly brutal in what the authors believed he demanded. After Christ the tone changes to the very noble "love they fellow man". Perhaps it has something to do with the times it was written in, and who did the writing, after all, the bible is not actually written by God (if there is a god), but by people, with human flaws, human hates and human desires.
Originally posted by Turbo-Cajun
So add that up on top of genocide and you have a holy book that has rules and justifications given by god to commit half the crimes recognized under modern international law.
Not just modern law, his OWN law. God has broken, and told other Christians to break the 10 commandments on many occasions.
The Ten Commandments
1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.
3. Thou shalt not tak the name of the Lord they God in vain.
4. Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy.
5. Honor thy father and mother.
6. Thou shalt not kill
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10. Thou shalt not covet anything that is thy neighbors.
God flooded the earth, killing nearly everyone on the planet, he broke rule number 6.
He destroyed Soddom and Gomorrah, he broke rule 6. Again.
God killed all of the Egyptian first born children...but that wasn't enough! He killed the first born of their cattle as well! Breaking the 6th I see... yet again.
Jealousy is one of the Seven Deadly Sins, is it not? on more than one occasion, God has stated "I am a jealous God, and you shall have no other before me".
Jesus and God are one, correct? That's the whole point of the trinity.
"5.Honor thy mother and they father" Jesus said "Lk.14:26
"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."" Telling other to break rule 5 I see...
There are many more contradictions in the Bible. http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ (Link courtesy of The Omega. Thanks!)
More!
Revelations:
19:11
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
19:12
His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
19:14
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
19:16
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
19:17
And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
19:18
That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Apparently Jesus is supposed to make war and EAT HIS ENEMIES. What happened to that "love your enemy" crap he spewed while he was alive?
I suspect the answer I will hear is "you aren't supposed to take Revelations literally! You aren't supposed to take the Old Testament literally! Just believe the love part, because that's the good part!11one!1!"
Most of the earlier religions were based upon two features (in a broad sense). The gods were defenders, meant to hold back the tide of chaos in a literal, bloody war like sense. As such, anybody that was not actually a follower of "order", was chaos, and didn't really count towards the rules, like the killing of a slave not being really murder, as they were seen as property. Also religion served as saying, well, you suffered on earth, things will get better later on.... it is likely all religions today still have a grounding in such traditions. Thats not to say any are wrong, but back then at least Gods needed to be bad it seems. These days its not the same (thank goodness), but remnants of these beliefs will linger....
The Ten Commandments had not been drafted in the days of the Flood, the destruction of those two cities, the infanticidal spree... 🙂
Christ's personal philosophy was largely independent of the Old Testament which is alot like the ancient pagan religions which influenced it. Probably you have a slight mistranslation of Christ's verse; it is more likely that he was merely exhorting any possible disciples to leave whatever lifestyle they had previously.