Vader would destroy Maul. His skill with the lightsaber is never really seen. He's holding back with Luke because he doesn't want to kill him. With OBi-Wan I consider the very defensive fighting as just testing Obi-Wan's power..and then when the fight would have gotten good the old man takes one for the team.
Wow, what a ridiculous concept. ESB Vader beating anything stronger than Yoda tied to a chair.
- Vader was on artificial respiration. Despite all the badassedness potential people say Anakin has, he still couldn't use the Force to keep his own lungs filled with oxygen. If you think he can move faster via the Force or whatnot, I'd like for you to put an oxygen mask on and run a few laps. If you don't pass out, you might be able to do one or two moves.
- His legs from the knees down are artificial, as is one of his arms. While some people think he could tweak these for an advantage, that's not taking Vader as he is, but rather as you would have him. And if that's the case, let all his opponents have enhanced cyber suits for a fair fight. In any case, this idea is ludicrous. Unless you could find a scientific engineering process that would make the Vader suit faster while still controllable, I'd never ever believe this and neither should anyone else.
- Vader was a middle aged man in ESB with more health problems then a WWII vet out of Okinawa. He quite simply isn't anywhere near as fast as he was, nor as human. His Force affinity has been msotly lost, and in any case it's not like he had to use it all that much after the Jedi Purge. It's not like he had been in a decent fight in the last twenty plus years, either.
- MistaMandalore, you say Vaders skill with a lightsaber is never really seen. You could argue that point for every Jedi and Sith in the series, because we only see a few (if that many) battles for each character, and each of those is limited in length from as small as half a minute to perhaps three or five. None of them are really, honestly enough to base one's complete skill in any case. It would be like seeing two rounds of the Rocky versus Tyson match and saying Tyson wins because he's champ. Let me put this in perspective... -That doesn't make a logical argument statement to support your beliefs.- And that, my friends, makes your words worth a bit less than the air they sailed out on.
Now, allow me to make a few points clearly...
- Maul as we saw him in TPM (Which, I'm assuming, is how he would be entering this duel) was young and agile, healthy and obviously talented enough to warrant being an apprentice to Sidious, no matter his actual pawn like status in the grand scheme of things. He seemed almost at ease for the majority of his battle with Qui Gon, a Jedi master and Form IV master, and Obi Wan Kenobi, who is the ninja of all Jedi, though still a rash padawan. While he did lose (and you can chalk that up to overconfidence and plotline neccessity) you cannot doubt his prowess in battle. Vader, however, hasn't shown us anything even on par with this. And while everyone's gonna jump down my throat with "Well, episode III's gonna change that" blah blah blah, I should remind them that Episode III Anakin is a lot young and substantially more -human- than ESB Vader, and didn't have a clunky ass suit and no peripheral vision in that helmet of his which must have been god awfully hot and bothersome. No wonder he killed people.
Point being, from all I've seen put forth, both in movie context, and few tidbits of knowledge I scrounge from threads here and there, I'd say Maul wins this one. Not utterly and easily, but definately wins.
First, you're making technological comparisons of things seen in Star Wars against our own level of science. If in Star Wars they have the ability to destroy planets and clone entire armies I'm thinking they might be just a wee bit ahead of our medical achievements.
Second point. I have no idea how Vader's artificial limbs affect his ability. We just don't know. Perhaps his strikes are stronger instead of being as fast. General Grievous on the other hand looks to have benefited greatly from his implants. Why couldn't Vader?
Third, I've heard the theory that Vader's loss of limbs=loss of midichlorians but I don't know that for certain since Lucas seems to have dropped the whole midi-chlorian bit. (Haven't read the script mind you.) But as far as age goes, Yoda's pretty damn old, the Emperor looks to be well older than Vader was at his death, etc..put a young agile martial artist against a fifty year old master and see who wins.
Fourth, I agree with your point. But saying your opinions are better then mine is pointless. I'm not out to set my opinion in stone just add to the debate.
As far as Maul being superior than Vader. We really don't know. All I do know is that Maul was killed by a padawan learner after killing Qui-Gon (I agree it was a cheap death though) Wheras Vader was killed after having destroyed the Jedi Order and the Sith Master. Pretty big resume' difference there.
Darth maul would probably win
Here is my argument. Darth maul beat both Qui GOn Jin and Obi wan in their fight, it was only when Maul turned away that Obi Wan killed him. If Maul had lived, he would have become even better then he was, which was better than Obi Wan who is Anakin's exact equal in fighting ability, and thus I feel that he would beat Darth Vader in a fare fight. Also, as seen in episode one, where he force pushed Obi Wan into the mining pit, Darth Maul is obviously well versed in the force, at least as much as Vader.
I think Vader would just be to slow for the agile Darth Maul. I mean he was beat by Luke in RoTJ, who was still a very young (in terms of experience) jedi knight. Yes you can play it off as he was trying to turn luke rather then kill, which i totally agree with. But the fact still remains what we saw of the two (maul and vader) i believe maul would just jump right over him and slash vader in the back.
Thats my own opinion I'm probably wrong, just stating what i think.
Darth Vader would kick all over Darth Maul. Vader is just pure power, and I don't care what anyone says about Darth vader being Slow. He is not slow, and the reason he looks slow is because it is an old movie with limited special effects. Vader would deliver powerful blow after powerful blow onto Maul, and perhaps use the force to throw objects at him or choke him, until D.Maul was in peices.
Maul Vs. Vader.
Timeline: Between Empire strikes Back and Return of the Jedi.
EU timeline: After the events of shadows of the empire.
Darth Vader was unsatisfied with the many droids he had trained to hone his skills with a sabre. The last, he had destroyed within 10 standard seconds. No matter how many times the programmers insisted their machines could learn in combat, insisted an increase in technique, they proved worthless. Vader enhanced his kill time with each of the twenty units until finally there were none left. At 255,000 Imperial credits apiece, that was no small amount, no matter how wealthy he was. The challenge was gone, the chance to gain skill, non-existent.
Vader had heard the rumors throughout his term as the Empires second in command. No one, of course, would ever confront him with it, including Palpatine, but they remained none the less. They ate away at his soul and increased his capacity to hate. While a good thing, increasing the hate would increase his power, it needed to be settled once and for all. In the back of his own mind, the part that remained in the flesh, doubt would dare creep upon him.
He had seen the Sith Lord in action, as a boy on Tatooine, and had eventually learned Qui-Gon Jinn, was murdered by his blade. Vader never witnessed that fight but heard the stories that Obi-Wan would rehash, over and over. Vader even used that story, told by his old master, to beat the doubt back into submission where it belonged.
If Obi-Wan could have destroyed him, as a mere boy, than there should be no challenge to an adult Vader, one who mastered the dark side of the force. Still the rumors persisted.
Bars and meeting places, not in the pits of Couracant, but higher up where individuals who mattered discussed things, lay the groundwork for such talk. Vader was above going to such places but his spies where everywhere and they told him everything. He had half a mind to get a list of names and destroy those that would dare speculate on such blasphemes.
But then he thought more about it.
The technology to create a perfect clone was possible. That was proven years ago and perhaps, improved upon by now. Borrowing a specimen from the Emperor’s private stock, Vader made his way to Kamino two years after being fitted with his life support suit. Even with his mastery of the force, it had taken that long to adapt to it, to make it feel as part of his natural body while in combat. The technicians kept humanizing their droid creations through the years, increasing the challenge level to Vader, but eventually, they were not enough. Now they were no longer necessary, a relief felt by all the droid engineers who escaped with their lives.
It took fifteen years to grow clones of Maul. Ten to get them up to age and five to train them properly in the ways of the force. Vader was no fool however. He used extreme caution and discretion for his side projects. He knew the danger of growing Sith, heard the stories from his master about the Sith wars long ago and made enough calculated risks with the Kaminoans to ensure everyone’s safety, most importantly, his own. They would be as attack dogs, trained in the ways of death, only on authority, when the command was spoken by one of two people. Vader, their master and Rimian, their cultivator, the Kaminoan who altered the DNA for the final batch of clones.
Once mature, Vader had sent for the galaxies best to train them in sabre fighting, acrobatics and the other arts Maul excelled in, and then he had those masters killed. There could be no leaks. Vader himself taught them in the ways of dark power, teaching them everything he knew, understanding the danger that could cause. He restored their entire memory process, using surveillance tapes and induced craotic hypnotism, up to Maul’s death on Naboo. They would be perfect replicas. Without such knowledge the entire project would be unrealistic. Throughout the entire training process, Vader only had to put down one subject, one who would not respond to the voice command. This was an untrained clone, just getting a taste of the dark side and being corrupted because of it. This left him with twenty nine clones, all trained and ready to be tested. Any larger number could have proved fatal and any less, his skill gain would be dismal. Never really considering the possibility of being killed by one, or what would happen if twenty nine trained sith broke loose on Couracant with him dead, Vader called to his trusted caretaker.
“Bring in Maul number one.”
The short man with the large, shiny face bowed then disappeared for a few moments. Vader would test the first few clones in his mansion on Couracant, more specifically, in his combat room. As large as an auditorium, the room was completely white in color and constructed completely in perm-crete. The caretaker had cleared the room of its various equipment and broken battle droids earlier, in preparation for today’s contest. This was only the beginning of course. Eventually, Vader would silence his critics by unleashing his experiment in front of a Couracant audience, proving once and for all, there never was any comparison. Today however, he would settle for killing one or two and seeing if his work was up to par.
The electronic lighting in the room revved up a notch, to fighting condition, and the ceiling fixtures glowed with an intense white, filling the room’s corners with clear brilliance. Through the only door along the west wall, walked a figure dressed in black, complete with tattoos and a dual light sabre that hung from his mid-section. Creeping slowly through the door, reminding Vader of a caged animal, the clone cautiously walked a few paces forward and stopped when he noticed Darth Vader.
“What is it you will have me do, Master,” Maul asked, not yet being given the vocal command to attack. He bowed in respect to Lord Vader.
“Padme”, Vader ordered in a deep voice.
The change in the clone was immediate. His face, which was docile upon entering the room now contorted with rage. Hard lines formed in his forehead and around his mouth. Yellow teeth bared violence and the small horns on his head gently sweated down his cheeks. At the same time, Maul reached for his belt and ignited his dual Sabre. Red energy expanded in two directions from the hilt, crackling energy, emitting ozone.
Vader smiled under his mask. Now the clone really did look like Darth Maul, the creature he watched on so many recordings, the creature so many thought more powerful than him.
“Now Maul,” Vader said raising his fight hand into a fist, “I give you the glory to die before me.”
For a moment, both men stood silent, unmoving. The only hint that neither were made of stone was the oxygen being pumped into Vader’s lungs.
It was a moment that lasted only a split second, but to Vader, it was fifteen years worth of work, climaxing in a battle that, for the very first time, he knew he could loose. Unlikely but altogether possible.
Vader’s fist already in the air, he called upon the force immediately and closed Maul’s throat, eliminating his air intake. Looking upon his rival’s face, for a moment, Vader was disappointed, thinking it would be all too easy.
Maul panicked, his face no longer full of rage but fear. He would not let Vader gain an advantage so easily. Calling on the force, using his rage, Maul opened his throat and smiled.
As did Vader. There was but a small moment when he felt pride over his accomplishment, training the clone to use the force to counter his choke grip. The moment was fleeting however as Darth Maul launched into the air, across the room in a double flip and landed behind Lord Vader. As the blade of red energy landed firmly on Vader’s shoulder, cutting into his suit and exposing burned circuits, the force brought his ignited light sabre to his hand and he blocked Mauls next blow, one that would have taken off his head. Both Lord’s took a step back, readied their light saber’s and studied the other.
Vader left the room empty for a reason. He did not want his mastery of the force to be an excuse for his destruction of Maul. Yes, he would use his rage to let the force flow through him, make his older body strong and his electronic limbs as one but this was not about moving nor hurling objects through the air. It was about physically beating an opponent who was extremely skilled with a light sabre. Vader knew otherwise, Maul would not stand a chance, as Skywalker didn’t, even if his skill was not as great…yet.
There would be no excuses when this was over, Vader thought. He would fight to Maul’s supposed strengths.
And he did very well.
For several minutes, Vader used every bit of his skill to stop incoming blows including a few close calls. Maul used his dual sabre very well; it was but a blur, even to the electronic sighting in Vader’s mask. But the Dark Lord did succeed in stopping it, without taking another hit to a tender region. His strategy was simple, even at his advanced age and with Maul in his physical prime. He would outlast the Sith. As a boy, when he was Anakin Skywalker, his greatest asset in the force, was growing stronger in battle. Other opponents would weaken, even Obi-Wan when they spared, but he would only get faster, his blows more powerful as the force flowed through him. And that was done with the weaker side of the force. Now, as a master of the dark side, it grew tenfold. His rage increased as the battle progressed past ten standard minutes; he could see Maul slowing down and could feel his own power increase.
To Vader, Maul was moving in slow motion. The duel up to this point had been an offensive showcase on Maul’s side and all defense on Vader’s. As the two men locked sabres for a final time, Maul was shocked at Vader’s strength, finally being thrown backwards and off his guard.
Vader waited.
Maul stood up and charged, spinning his weapon, trying to slide it upwards as he reached sabre distance, to remove Vader’s arm at the elbow. The Dark Lord saw the maneuver happen a second before it did, shuffled to the side and cut the duel sabre in two with a downward blow. The dead piece of perma-steel slid across the white floor, hitting the wall with a clinking sound and echoed. Maul again backed up and readied his stance to adapt a single blade style. Vader noticed the fear, sensed it and that excited him. The end was near and he knew it.
Again Maul charged. Reaching striking distance, the Sith lord jumped and spun to Vader’s rear. He was met with a red beam of energy that slid through him, starting at his groin, cutting sideways, taking one leg and a quarter of the torso with it.
Vader used the force to push Maul’s deactivated sabre away and look down on him, still conscious and still full of rage.
“As I expected,” the Dark Lord said, “no contest.”
Using his blade to end Maul’s misery, he gently pushed it through the neck, separating the head from the body.
Calling for his caretaker, Vader was just getting warmed up, “Clean this up and get me Maul number two.”
Vader is weaker then Anaking skywalker COULD have been. Naturally his mechanics hold him back, but not from any midichlorians-lost-to-blood crap. If body mass was a deciding factor in power, yoda would have been the wussiest jedi to live.
What Vader lacks is physical ability. Since he no longer has flesh and blood limps, he can't channel the force through them, thus making him slow compared to a jedi able to use supernatural speed in limps, though not anybody else. (If we use expanded universese's shadow of the empire as an example: Guri was faster then everybody except Luke using the force). This does not actually impact his force ability: the fact he was in ESB able to pick up so many objects to throw at luke was an obvious show that he wasn't weak. For that matter, in episode three, for a guy who'd just been massivly crippled, vader did a good job destroying everything in the med room when he came too. Telekinetically, Telepathically and and all other mental aspects of the force, I suspect ESB vader is much stronger then EP III anakin/vader. This loss of potential has nothing to do with the loss of midichlorians, just the loss of flesh.
Now, looking at his big physical vulnerability, i think it's simple. If Maul can use force lightning (something he never demonstrates ability in), he would most certianly win. Vader could try to block it, but he'd likely loose as he won't be able to breath after the stuff shorts out his life support.
Otherwise, it's already been settled in the star wars comics itself.Since anything is cannon unless Lucas or the movies contradict it to be otherwise, the what if has been delt with: Vader wins, though not easily.
I'm a huge Vader/Anakin fan and Obi-Wan fan but it all depends. What I mean is that if Darth Maul didn't perish in TPM he'd probally rival Vader's and Obi-Wan's talents. But if its TPM Maul the battle goes to Vader and Obi-Wan. But years of experience Maul, the battle would be 50% Maul and 50% the oppenent.
I dunno. I mean, Maul was raised by sideous from childhood on. He was hardly untrained. And being killed by a padawan, even a strong one, doesn't say much of his mastery. If young obi wan could kill him, it stands to reason he won't be able to stand up to the older more experienced obi wan.
Besides, that's a big what if, since Maul dies, we cant' really gauge how far he would have gotten. I assume for the purposes of this debate we are using TPM maul, in which case I reiterate that Vader wins.
in my opinion darth vader is just as good with a lightsaber as everyone else, in fact hes better. Lets see darth maul drag himself out of a pit of molten lava after having his limbs cut off and being maimed by lightsaber strikes. Vader has raw willpower which is why i think he didnt die on mustafar.