Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
I disagree. Greed and hate are not socialized traits. Rather, they are part of the fundamental rancor that lies at the core of human nature. Human beings are morally flawed. If anything, socialization is one of the things that mitigates these intrinsic weaknesses.The protestation of moral innocence is one of charming narratives we construct about ourselves, revisionist history covering up the shame of compromised origins. None of us are innocent. No one.
The need to construct this image of ourselves as innocent is telling, though. It hearkens back to what I was arguing in my earlier post about humanity primarily being a function of its own narratives. We tell stories to construct identities for ourselves. For good or ill, narratives are the symbolic structures with which we clothe our self-perception. Sometimes these narrative ennoble us. Sometimes they plunge us into self-degradation. Sometimes they lie sweetly and rock us gently to sleep...
And you would know that the hate and greed are natural....how?
They are not. They can never be. Greed is forged by the emergance of higherarchy within civilisation, and so is hate.
We didnt evolve with hate and greed. If we did, none of what we have not would be possible to create.
Its a flawed logic. What you know today, is not how it should be. Socialisation is making us act certain ways, and thats all too obvious.
People in a different social soroundings will thing and do different things to those not in their social soroundings.
Some people are brought up to hate a particular group of people, others aren't.
And why do we hate each other? Because of ideology differance, money and power.
Neither of those are the things which are natural in our mind. These are aquired things - through ideology and socialisation.
Originally posted by big gay kirk
The point is, nothing can happen in the universe that is not natural.... therefore, everything that happens is ....
The universe was once a naked singularity of non-space, non-time that exploded inexplicably into existence. Was this natural? The fact that anything exists and not nothing is a subject of wonder.
Originally posted by big gay kirkYep. And here we have people talking about fate... and humans being dead or something. 😆
Sorry, but I am fed up of hearing people say that human beings are unnatural, and that we do unnatural things... WE DON'T!!! Everything we do is natural, or we just wouldn't do it... maybe our houses and skyscrapers aren't as beautiful as an anthill, or birds nest, but they are just as natural... farming is natural... ants do it, why is it unnatural for us, but not for them... war is natural.. chimps do it... why shouldn't we... even our polluting of the atmosphere is natural.. it's what we do... it may not be "nice," it may not be "wholesome" but it is natural... we are just as much a part of nature as a chimp, a rat, a sparrow, a cod, a frog or a virus... whatever we do is natural.... sorry, but that's how it is...
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
And you would know that the hate and greed are natural....how?They are not. They can never be. Greed is forged by the emergance of higherarchy within civilisation, and so is hate.
We didnt evolve with hate and greed. If we did, none of what we have not would be possible to create.
Its a flawed logic. What you know today, is not how it should be. Socialisation is making us act certain ways, and thats all too obvious.
People in a different social soroundings will thing and do different things to those not in their social soroundings.
Some people are brought up to hate a particular group of people, others aren't.And why do we hate each other? Because of ideology differance, money
and power.Neither of those are the things which are natural in our mind. These are aquired things - through ideology and socialisation.
A debate! Goody!
Well, I'm not really constructing a formal proof for hate and greed's permanent existence in the human Psyche. I don't think such a proof could be made. I guess you could say I'm extrapolating back from the phenomena at hand. What do I have direct experience of? Human nature. Is human nature, as I have seen it, universally tainted by these forces? Yes. Do I have reason to believe that hate and greed would disappear if society dissolved and humanity found itself castaway on a deserted island? No. Maybe I'm too much influenced by "Lord of the Flies." ;-)
Part of what makes me conservative, is my belief that human nature is fairly constant. The experiences--the thoughts and feelings, the aspirations and fears--of our ancestors are not that different from ours. Otherwise, we could not read Homer or Thucydides and understand. Men and women are always themselves. They are always half flesh and blood, half spirit. Half tragic, half comic farce.
The story of Cain and Abel in Genesis is so compelling because of the nugget of human truth it reveals about us. In the beginning, before there were hierarchies or civilization, brother killed brother, and the killer--Cain--became the founder of cities. Civilization rests on a foundation of fratricide and blood.
If you're not partial to the Hebrew scriptures, you can pick from any number of other ur-story materials. Fratricide and the spilling of blood is a common thread in many origin stories. Romulus' killing of Remus in the founding of Rome is a prominent example, as are any number of Greek myths that speak to the cannibalization of children and the like. Most of the early stories agree that civilization is erected on top of an intrinsic human evil.
I think my favorite description of civilization's function occurs in Allan Tate's "The Fathers"--Civilization is the common pact we share with one another not to gaze into the void.
Originally posted by Imperial_SamuraBut what about...
Ah, yes. But it is true when you look at it, at an ant colony, it is a perfectly harmonious society, industrious, peaceful and every ant contributes, every ant has a part to play. They don't destroy the earth, they don't rage war with no cause, they don't look to achieve genocide or to enslave, they are driven, united...
Mosura!!!
Dun dun dunn...
The ants don't stand a chance.