The Beyonder (secret wars version) VS The Living Tribunal

Originally posted by picoico
FOlks, as I said Marvel did a rethink. Prior to Secret Wars III (i.e. the plot run in FF), it was thought that LT was just another cosmic type. After that, Marvel had made him top dog. Marvel Continuity is NOT continuous.

Beyonder WAS the top dog during the day. LT and all the other cosmic types were too SCARED (this is explicitly stated in Secret Wars II #8 and #9, I think), to do squat against him. Only Owen (Molecule Man) had the guts to stand up to him.

Later, when doom, Kubic, Shaper and owen show up in Beyonder's pocket universe (the one where Molecule Man put him in when Beyonder made himself mortal in SW II #9), we find out he's not all that.

I don't know when LT was made top dog, but it certainly was that way as of Thanos Quest, and most recently it has been explicitly stated by Thanos himself in Marvel Universe: The End.

So, original beyonder vs. current LT, I dunno...it's too confusing to tell.

Didn't Molecule Man beat the hell out of him too? LT is certainly above Molecule Man. LT's powers haven't changed, they've just been more concretely defined. His role has been the same since the beginning of time, just because he wasn't defined as the top dog doesn't mean he wasn't. Yes he's a character, but we're supposed to believe these characters believe that what exists is real, thus LT is going to be the same, he's not going to 'gain power.' You can't gain power when you have as close to all the power as you can get without being THE God.

Mider, in Marvel Universe: The End, "The One Above All" gave his powers to Thanos, and so LT couldn't do squat against him. Something about some great cosmic anomoly that required the universe to be reset, kinda like how you have to reboot your computer when it hangs. Silly story, but that's how it was. The idea was that TOAA could count on Thanos to do the job, and LT and all other cosmic beings were left clueless.

Originally posted by wrathofachilles
No, he only DID watch. He sat around at watched Thanos with the IG too, doesn't mean he couldn't stop him. It's not his job to stop every little punk who comes along and acts like he's God, he only does so if he's threatening existence. Beyonder didn't do that. Beyonder was a threat to Earth heroes, not to the entire multiverse. Thus it's not LT's job.

That is NOT how it was portrayed in Secret Wars. In fact, at one point the Beyonder did nullify the universe temporarily, if memory serves me correct.

The writing was not ambiguous on this. The cosmic beings were too chicken to confront beyonder. Check out SW II #7 or #8, can't remember which one. One of the issues was dedicated to the Beyonder confronting the cosmic beings.

Originally posted by wrathofachilles
Didn't Molecule Man beat the hell out of him too? LT is certainly above Molecule Man. LT's powers haven't changed, they've just been more concretely defined. His role has been the same since the beginning of time.j

MM beat up Beyonder in one of the FF annuals, I think.

LT's role in the Marvel Universe I think was always the same, however as far as power levels are concerned, it is quite clear that Marvel did a rethink on this. I mean, we can explain it away (and that's exactly what Marvel did) by thinking LT was just playing along, however the intent of the original writers was to have LT as just another cosmic being doing his job. So as the current LT stands, you are correct. He was always that way.

However, I think the challenge is the beyonder as understood from the original SW vs. LT of today.

umm Beyonder captured Galactus thats a threat to the universe DUH! and so was Doom when he got the Beyonders powers and yes the tribunal is moronic and no the Beyonder isnt. why? cause the Beyonder was just some guy with like unlimited power the living tribunal is a pompas mornic character that sits around while others do his work just like eternity and death.

The UNIverse is not the MULTiverse. Thanos was a threat to the UNIverse and Living Tribunal didn't care. Beyonder was not a threat to all of existence, so yeah LT sat around. He was interested and perhaps a little scared because he'd never encountered such a ridiculous, irresponsible cosmic being with such power, doesn't mean he wouldn't wink him out of existence.

Plus anyone would be scared of someone with such an absurd haircut. If you like Beyonder you've got to like Richard Simmons.

You have no clue what you're talking about do you? We're talking about the original Beyonder. Also, killing Death isn't going to get LT's attention?

LT didn't interfere with Thanos because Thanos only wanted to KILL life to satisfy his Mistress. Killing life isn't the same as destroying the universe; Thanos never wanted that. He only wanted life in the universe to cease - there's a difference. Hence, LT did not stop him. As long as the universe in still in place, life can still start over.

HOWEVER, Eternity was able to PUT UP A CASE & WIN against Adam Warlock with the IG because Eternity acussed Warlock of being unstable and unfit to wield a power which can destroy reality. Meaning Warlock is a danger to the universe based on his past, which LT agreed and ruled against Warlock.

Beyonder was threat to the everything. Doom with Beyonder's power was affraid that he might destroy existence if his mind went astray for a mere moment. Beyonder was toying with every being. When Beyonder threatened to destroy existence, the Celestials jumped at him about to attack but was put do easily with a whim from an amused Beyonder. With a thought Beyonder could destroy the universe, the Multiverse is just a collection of universes which might require harder concentration to wipe out.

LT did shit against Beyonder. He could only gather his cosmic buddies together and watch helplessly as the Beyonder destroyed Death.

not a threat to existance? um ok he only captured Galactus and killed every super hero on earth killed death and umm some other minur stuff......but yeah i guess your right he was not that much of a threat to existance he only defeated two cosmic entities took over earth defeated mephesto and beat the shit out of everyone else uh huh : / and distoryed a galaxy......get your info right

Thanos did the same thing: killed virtually every super hero and half the life in the universe. Saying that's not a threat is asinine. It's a threat to the balance of the universe, but it's not a threat to existence. Beyonder had to be rescued from Mephisto, and LT was impressed with Beyonder, he was not scared. The Multiverse is to the universe what the universe is to Earth, saying it might require harder concentration is absurd. Beyonder in no way is capable of taking out the multiverse, thus the Living Tribunal is simply amused by his antics, nothing more.

The idea of killing Death is asinine. The Marvel writers must have been off their rockers. Thanos had his way with the universe and LT didn't step in until he felt it necessary, so wrath is right here. The wellbeing of all existence does not lie on a single earth in a single universe. You guys are thinking too small scale. What beyonder was doing wasn't even a drop in a bucket.

Well, Death WAS killed by captain Marvel in Universe X

theres a lot of cunfusion here, LT didnt do anythin about thanos with the infinite gauntlett cause the IG was only destroyin the life of a single universe, but infact later, with the snap of a finger LT cancelled the IG powers. but when thanos had THE HEART OF THE UNIVERSE, he even destroyed LT. now as long as we are talking about the secret wars version of the beyonder, there is no chance in hell that LT could do anything about it. the beyonder wahted to destroy the entire multiverse not just the universe which many think, but that was just a phase he went through because he could not find his place and purpose in the world. dr strange and cap america talked him out of it. but that doesnt go to say that LT did not TRY to stop him. but the simple fact is that he wasnt able to. another thing, the beyond realm is NOT, and i repeat NOT part of the multiverse or omniverse. it was chronologically created alongside the normal multiverse by TOAA. that is exactly the reason why beyonder of secret wars{and true beyonders, as we see them now} had so much power, because they were not limited or UNDER any of the limitations of concepts or abstracts of the normal multiverse. ok imagine this, the fact is that the beyond realm is unimaginably big, bigger than the whole multiverse, but even a single dimensional gate, be it microscopic, will leak out the power to create a cosmic cube, now the other fact was that the secret wars version beyonder was the sum total of the entire beyond realm, just imagine that.

another thing is that people tend to see the things beyonder did as the extent of his power, however thas not true, his destruction of a galaxy and destruction of DEATH, was like childs play to him, he didnyt even blink let alone weaken when he used his power to destroy death, then he brought death back in existance.

and whoever is comparin true beyonders with the celestials has knocked his head badly somewhere.
according to reed richard's hypothesis, the only thing that the beyonder couldnt do was create a paradox in space time as this would destroy all of existance, and the entire multiverse, along with the beyonder because he was also in one of the universes of the multiverse, but even this was just a hypothesis.

That doesn't work. There cannot be a universe outside the multiverse, by the very definition ANY universe is part of the multiverse. Beyonder's universe was his own, but it's still part of a multiverse, I don't care how it was explained. Leon, by your very argument, you've admitted the only thing Beyonder could not do was the very thing he needed to do to be a threat to Living Tribunal. LT did not try to stop him. He didn't need to stop him. Beyonder didn't have the power to destroy all of existence, thus LT can sit back and watch. Again, the Beyonder was insanely powerful, but he was not multiverse-scale. He manipulated and destroyed things on a cosmic level, but only on a universe scale, not a multiverse. LT is multi-verse level. Nothing is higher than him except the One.

You talk like the Creator needed to imprison his creations. If that were true no one would be Here at all. The "freedom" to be independent of the Creator is inherent. To function outside of ramifactions is the natural order of things. Yet your whole argument denies this reality. No offesense. But let those who judge be judged.

wrathofachilles

The color might have come out wrote (don't know why) but just read it. This is comic logic. Think what you might, but the Beyonder does exist outside the multiverse. This is comic; they can choose to have a realm outside the multiverse - it's their creation, not yours! Beyonder is NOT from the multiverse - hence why he's called "The Beyonder."

Here's Galactus' statement

And wrath, did you even read The Infinity Gauntlet Saga and Infinity Watch #1. LT HIMSELF clearly admits to the reasoning behind not taking away the Gauntlet from Thanos and taking the Gauntlet away from Warlock. LT himself clearly states his reasons.

I think it was Eternity that stated Thanos being more suitable of a host to the Infinity Gauntlet than Warlock as he does not have the life experience as other beings have had.

Thanos was a nut who wanted to wipe out life in the universe only.
Warlock was unfit/unstable and might wipe out the ENTIRE universe.

Yes I read the IG, I know LT's reasons behind not stopping Thanos. Point is, he didn't. He could have, but he didn't. As far as Galactus' statement, the Marvel writers can say whatever they want, but the fact of the matter is it is impossible, plain and simple. Yes this is a comic book world and comic 'logic', but comic book writers almost never know what they're talking about when they delve into a scientific field. It doesn't make much difference anyway; once Beyonder entered into this universe, he entered into the jurisdiction of the Living Tribunal, thus he was under his power. He could have been willed away like any other being in this universe.