For or Against Euthanasia

Started by Grand-Moff-Gav19 pages

Originally posted by Bardock42
I'm so freaking awesome.

Anyways, I am still for euthanasia in the form of self-determination.

I agree with you, but what safeguards would you put in place (if you were the policy maker) to protect those suffering from depression/mental illnesses etc from exercising this right- if indeed there should be any "safeguards".

Also, when money (insert other motives) comes in to play how would those who are vulnerable be protected against exploitation from relatives or doctors. (I.e. Son wants Dad's estate, tells Dad he is a burden and should let himself die. Or Doctors putting pressure on those who are badly ill with little chance of recovery to exercise euthanasia so that they can do other things/get bed space/save moeny etc)

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
I agree with you, but what safeguards would you put in place (if you were the policy maker) to protect those suffering from depression/mental illnesses etc from exercising this right- if indeed there should be any "safeguards".

Also, when money (insert other motives) comes in to play how would those who are vulnerable be protected against exploitation from relatives or doctors. (I.e. Son wants Dad's estate, tells Dad he is a burden and should let himself die. Or Doctors putting pressure on those who are badly ill with little chance of recovery to exercise euthanasia so that they can do other things/get bed space/save moeny etc)

It's a valid question. I don't really know. I just feel that the right to end your life if you want is pretty important, you are the one that has to experience your life after all.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I'm so freaking awesome.

Anyways, I am still for euthanasia in the form of self-determination.

so you agree with euthanasia in the form of self-determination, but does that make it justifiable to ask someone to kill even if that person agrees?

do you have any objections? ones that don't concern the right to personal freedom and choice?

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
I agree with you, but what safeguards would you put in place (if you were the policy maker) to protect those suffering from depression/mental illnesses etc from exercising this right- if indeed there should be any "safeguards".

Also, when money (insert other motives) comes in to play how would those who are vulnerable be protected against exploitation from relatives or doctors. (I.e. Son wants Dad's estate, tells Dad he is a burden and should let himself die. Or Doctors putting pressure on those who are badly ill with little chance of recovery to exercise euthanasia so that they can do other things/get bed space/save moeny etc)

to protect the practice of medicine, yes, i believe there should be safeguards. if doctors were legally allowed preform voluntary euthanasia for whatever reason, i think it would undermine and compromise society's trust in doctors and the medical system.

Originally posted by Fallen
so you agree with euthanasia in the form of self-determination, but does that make it justifiable to ask someone to kill even if that person agrees?

do you have any objections? ones that don't concern the right to personal freedom and choice?

Well, it's just a question, the person can refuse, so I don't think it is a problem.

And what are you referring to? I can't think of any, really.

On Dexter, Dexter killed a psychiatrist for causing quite few of his patients to commit suicide.

That brings up another point. People can be indoctrinated to the point of suicide. How can you determine that they are being rational and not just being a puppet?

In the fictional psychiatrist's case, he would yank his patients off of their anti-depressants and then encourage their suicidal thoughts.

I'm still all for euthanasia.

Originally posted by dadudemon

That brings up another point. People can be indoctrinated to the point of suicide. How can you determine that they are being rational and not just being a puppet?

I guess to be a bit heartless....what does it matter?

Originally posted by Bardock42
I guess to be a bit heartless....what does it matter?

I'm stupid and have fallen for shit before. I greatly regretted it. Maybe there should be some sort of battery of questions designed to give them second thoughts...just in case they are about to make a stupid mistake based on stupid shit someone put into their head.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I'm stupid and have fallen for shit before. I greatly regretted it. Maybe there should be some sort of battery of questions designed to give them second thoughts...just in case they are about to make a stupid mistake based on stupid shit someone put into their head.
Yeah, a talk with a psychologist or such a list of question, or maybe just even just a notary might be a way to make it safer.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, it's just a question, the person can refuse, so I don't think it is a problem.

And what are you referring to? I can't think of any, really.

i agree on that note. even in the medical context, doctors don't have any obligation to carry out more than what's standard care.

i was referring to the possible outcomes and consequences of voluntary euthanasia. i think euthanasia should only be defined in terms of medicine and medical care. permitting the practice outside the medical environment would be detrimental to society. the system would be abused and cases of homicide would become more prevalent. i only bring up this point because suicide doesn't need to involve the medical system.

so, on the basis that euthanasia is defined in terms of medical care, i think there are valid concerns against voluntary euthanasia...

a) if the purpose of euthanasia is to end suffering, doctors might act independently out of compassion or benevolence, which then becomes an act of involuntary euthanasia. such actions would violate patient consent and the concept of self-determination.

b) as i mentioned earlier, the doctor-patient relationship could be compromised. some argue that euthanasia contradicts the very goal of medicine, which is to promote well-being. if doctors are killing their patients, the public may no longer trust doctors to do what is best for their interests. therefore, theoretically, the institution of medicine could crumble. the last bit may be extreme, but everything has stepping stones.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
I agree with you, but what safeguards would you put in place (if you were the policy maker) to protect those suffering from depression/mental illnesses etc from exercising this right- if indeed there should be any "safeguards".

Also, when money (insert other motives) comes in to play how would those who are vulnerable be protected against exploitation from relatives or doctors. (I.e. Son wants Dad's estate, tells Dad he is a burden and should let himself die. Or Doctors putting pressure on those who are badly ill with little chance of recovery to exercise euthanasia so that they can do other things/get bed space/save moeny etc)

i addressed your question earlier, but didn't really have enough time to elaborate.

consent in the medical context is only valid if its from a rational individual. those who are clinically depressed or suffering from mental illnesses are labeled as incompetent and can't give rational consent. the same restriction would naturally be applied if voluntary euthanasia were to be legalized.

i think oregon's law provides a good staring point. patients have to make a request for prescribed medication that will, in turn, end their lives.

1) the patient has to be suffering from a terminal illness in which death is imminent within the next 6 months. (i personally think this restriction should be expanded to include those who are not necessarily facing imminent death, but are severally ill and have condition will not improve, as well as the severally incapable like quadriplegics.)

2) the patient is required to go through a psychological evaluation to determine competency.

3) the request has to be confirmed by two witness, one of which cannot be a family member, the treating doctor, or someone who is entitled to any material possessions (to prevent coercion).

4) written and oral request with waiting periods.

5) the right to rescind the request.

Originally posted by dadudemon
On Dexter, Dexter killed a psychiatrist for causing quite few of his patients to commit suicide.

That brings up another point. People can be indoctrinated to the point of suicide. How can you determine that they are being rational and not just being a puppet?

In the fictional psychiatrist's case, he would yank his patients off of their anti-depressants and then encourage their suicidal thoughts.

I'm still all for euthanasia.

i'm a fan of the show. it can be so disturbingly dark. i love it!

again, consent from someone who is clinically depressed isn't valid.

I can't help but feel that limiting the right to die to someone suffering from a terminal illness is a bit unfair...

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
I can't help but feel that limiting the right to die to someone suffering from a terminal illness is a bit unfair...

i agree, which is why i think those who are severely handicapped should also have the right, but i'm not so sure that permitting those who simply want to die is a valid reason to perform euthanasia.

Originally posted by Fallen
i agree, which is why i think those who are severely handicapped should also have the right, but i'm not so sure that permitting those who simply want to die is a valid reason to perform euthanasia.

Why not?

This argument is almost as pointless as the abortion thread. Believers in Christ are going to say only God has the right to choose when someone dies, but the non believers are going to say it's up to the family or the individual (Most of the time anyways). Then it will boil over into a religious debate.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
This argument is almost as pointless as the abortion thread. Believers in Christ are going to say only God has the right to choose when someone dies, but the non believers are going to say it's up to the family or the individual (Most of the time anyways). Then it will boil over into a religious debate.

I dunno, I can think of a few good non-religious reasons for opposing euthanasia...some have been mentioned....though I think your point is valid, there will be those who want to make this into another religious debate because they feel its easier to "win" that way. (Though I think its fair for someone to give a religious viewpoint on this issue- after all it is relevant.)

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
I dunno, I can think of a few good non-religious reasons for opposing euthanasia...some have been mentioned....though I think your point is valid, there will be those who want to make this into another religious debate because they feel its easier to "win" that way. (Though I think its fair for someone to give a religious viewpoint on this issue- after all it is relevant.)
Some say tomato.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Why not?

because of what i stated earlier about the negative effects on the medical system.

with any right that is given to the people, that right can be abused, which is why laws and restrictions are in placed.

we have to be able to balance personal freedoms and individual rights with the overall effect it has on society. the medical institution is an integral part of any society. it needs to be protected.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
This argument is almost as pointless as the abortion thread. Believers in Christ are going to say only God has the right to choose when someone dies, but the non believers are going to say it's up to the family or the individual (Most of the time anyways). Then it will boil over into a religious debate.

i don't see how its pointless at all. the debate concerning abortion and euthanasia are extremely relevant today, regardless of someone's religious beliefs or lack of.

Sooner or later a Christian will bring up that only God should choose when and how we die. Which is true IMO. This is why I am pro life and I do not support the death penalty, because we, as humans, basically suck as a species, and for us to assume we have the right to decide when and how someone dies is the epitome of self glorification. Don't get me wrong, I aint no holy roller, you know that for certain, better than most here anyways. I just have a certain unshakable set of beliefs, which I am entitled to.

When the Christian brings this to the argument, when they bring their religion into it, which is completely valid from their POV, someone who doesn't believe in Christ will bring up that there is no God, that Christ does not exist, and the "debate" will move from euthanasia to religion.

The one exception for us "deciding" when someone dies is when they are in a coma and on life support, and will likely never come out of it/recover. But pulling the plug and using euthanasia are like apples and oranges.

It is an exercise in futility, IMO, this is why I tend to stay outta the religion forum.

Originally posted by Fallen
i'm a fan of the show. it can be so disturbingly dark. i love it!

again, consent from someone who is clinically depressed isn't valid.

AHA! (It's a good show...I love it as well. I just finished the second season.)

It makes sense. But who, other than the depressed and religious douches, would choose suicide?

AHA! 😆

I can understand RJ's example of the life support patient.

Because I'm a cynical a**hole, I'd rather not give the benefit of the doubt and take them off sooner than later. I don't do double standards so I would take any of my family off of life support sooner than later as well. (being religious...I would pray for an answer with my hubbida hoobida incantations with an animal sacrifice burning in the background.)

Originally posted by Fallen
i agree on that note. even in the medical context, doctors don't have any obligation to carry out more than what's standard care.

i was referring to the possible outcomes and consequences of voluntary euthanasia. i think euthanasia should only be defined in terms of medicine and medical care. permitting the practice outside the medical environment would be detrimental to society. the system would be abused and cases of homicide would become more prevalent. i only bring up this point because suicide doesn't need to involve the medical system.

so, on the basis that euthanasia is defined in terms of medical care, i think there are valid concerns against voluntary euthanasia...

a) if the purpose of euthanasia is to end suffering, doctors might act independently out of compassion or benevolence, which then becomes an act of involuntary euthanasia. such actions would violate patient consent and the concept of self-determination.

b) as i mentioned earlier, the doctor-patient relationship could be compromised. some argue that euthanasia contradicts the very goal of medicine, which is to promote well-being. if doctors are killing their patients, the public may no longer trust doctors to do what is best for their interests. therefore, theoretically, the institution of medicine could crumble. the last bit may be extreme, but everything has stepping stones.

a) They do that now at times. I don't think this is a real slippery slope arguments, and, many people that got in trouble because of euthanising people did so in agreement with the patient. I don't see why there would be more reason for doctors to act independently if it was legal, and in fact it would decriminalize behaviour which is, imo, very moral.

b) I don't think that is a correct view of what doctors do. Obviously they already try to ease suffering, at the cost of some time of life in specific cases. It wouldn't actually be a new view, so I don't see a worry with that.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Sooner or later a Christian will bring up that only God should choose when and how we die.

If you actually believe that you must refuse any and all human care for your illnesses. You probably shouldn't work out either.

Or is God only allowed to choose if death would strike sooner, rather than later?

Whenever someone brings up their religion to force others to do or not to do something, there's something wrong. If Euthanasia was legal, no Christian would be forced to perform it...nor to receive it. It's a right for people that want it, why someone else for some reason should be allowed to deny it is beyond me.

Originally posted by Bardock42

If you actually believe that you must refuse any and all human care for your illnesses. You probably shouldn't work out either.

Or is God only allowed to choose if death would strike sooner, rather than later?

Whenever someone brings up their religion to force others to do or not to do something, there's something wrong. If Euthanasia was legal, no Christian would be forced to perform it...nor to receive it. It's a right for people that want it, why someone else for some reason should be allowed to deny it is beyond me.

Let's say "Jim" goes to the doctor and they find a tumor on his kidneys. Deciding it it operable, they remove it and he is OK. This is a far cry from using euthanasia, man. Using science and medical advancements to prolong life and using euthanasia to END a life are two different things entirely.

It's like checking the oil in your car, making sure it it at a certain level at all times. If you check it and it is low, and decide to drive without adding a quart of oil, sure, your engine is gonna blow. But if you add however much oil the car needs, then the car has a longer life.

Sure, christians also steal and commit adultery. "Thou shall not kill", one of the ten commandments, along with "Thou shall not commit adultery" and "Thou shall not steal."

For the record, I bring up my religion simply because it ties into my views. I will never try and force anyone to do anything just because I believe in it. "Free will."