who created god

Originally posted by TacDavey
No, it's a beginning. Modern Cosmology has found that matter, space, and time itself had a beginning at the Big Bang.

False. Cosmology has found that the universe we live in came into existence with the Big Bang. We know nothing at all about what came before. It's entirely possible that matter, time, or space (or all three) exists beforehand or that things like them could have existed. The only intellectually honest statement about reality before the Big Bang is that we don't know what happened. One commonly cited possibility is an infinite series of universe spawning new ones or an infinitely large set of ageless universes that happened to spawn our own a few billion years ago.

In any event cosmological explanations for the origin of the universe exist that require neither space-time to exist or a creator to be present.

Originally posted by TacDavey
It's a little more advanced than that. If it's so illogical, you should be able to refute it.

Your formulation of it is so absurd it can't be addressed by an argument only dismissed.

I recall that it depends on us believing that when time doesn't exist only sentient thought can take place. There's no response to that worth writing out at length. It's just stupid. It doesn't even begin to make sense. You may as well contend that the number three tastes purple. Anyone who spends time "refuting" such a claim is wasting their time because the person who came up with the idea is obviously divorced from any kind of rational argument.

I always imagine this example: a guest speaker comes to a conference and starts speaking on the microphone placed on the podium. However, that microphone wasn't always there- something or someone must have placed it there. It wasn't there on its own. It required an origin.
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If we know nothing before the Big Bang, except that the Big Bang began and our known universe was established, then why does it matter asking "Who created God?" For those that see God as a distinct Creator, then you can assume it was the maker that caused the Big Bang. And if this God was supremely omnipotent, then it's obvious he couldn't be created. But then, who created him? It's an infinite loop. God was created by God who was created by God and so forth...

Simply put, there was a start, and 'God' was at that start.

For a Hindu such as myself, who sees as "God" as the infinite Divine ground of this Universe, I don't think it frankly matters asking who created God because Brahman is already everything.

EDIT: This is my view on the matter. I am not saying anybody is wrong here, but honestly, we really don't know anything. Just a crazy guy spewing out some crap.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
no you didnt. modern cosmology does NOT say that the universe came to existance ex nihilo. the "nothing" that cosmologists refer to is not the same "nothing" that philosophers refer to. the cosmological "nothing" has basic axiomatic properties and identity properties that make it NECESSARY for the dimensions and concepts we know to be our universe, to come out of it spontaneously. this is not an UNCAUSED universe. the kind of nothing"absense of everything" that you are referring to has no justification for being a real phenomenon. nothing we have experienced or scientifically measured has ever show it to be the case

Hold on.

"this is not an UNCAUSED universe."

That's exactly what the first part of my argument was saying. Then we agree.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
yes but modern cosmolog has also found that matter space and time are not ALL there is to existance even though our human intuitions can not grasp much else. infact, in modern cosmology, there are higher dimension and causality outside our current universe

I fully accept the possibility of something outside of matter, space and time. Whatever caused the universe had to be outside of all three, since they came into existence at the Big Bang.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
yes but that is an error based in the arrow of time, which again is based in the way our memory works based on entropy. it would be more accurate to talk about finiteness in dimensions of events or structures{things} and then see which variable caused it rather than use TIME as a perfect frame of reference{which it is NOT in modern physics}.simply put, simply because things are outside time does not mean than they are UNCAUSED.

If something has a cause it must have a beginning since it must have not existed, and then was caused. But something outside of time has no beginning. It never came into existence it simply always was. Thus, it needs no cause.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
and it actually isnt any more advanced than that at all. it is the most simplistic, and most weak arguments for god's existance on the face of the earth. infact, the only step down would be a "god exists because he has to" or "fish!".

I'm going to let this one slide because I actually laughed at the fish part.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
False. Cosmology has found that the universe we live in came into existence with the Big Bang. We know nothing at all about what came before. It's entirely possible that matter, time, or space (or all three) exists beforehand or that things like them could have existed. The only intellectually honest statement about reality before the Big Bang is that we don't know what happened. One commonly cited possibility is an infinite series of universe spawning new ones or an infinitely large set of ageless universes that happened to spawn our own a few billion years ago.

That is not quite correct. We don't know much about what happened before the Big Bang, that's true. But we DO know that matter space and time did not exist before it. Cosmology has found that these things had a beginning at the Big Bang.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
In any event cosmological explanations for the origin of the universe exist that require neither space-time to exist or a creator to be present.

Of course I know there are other explanations/theories to explain the origins of the universe. I think they are incorrect, based off of, among other things, this argument.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Your formulation of it is so absurd it can't be addressed by an argument only dismissed.

In what way? I have two premises and a conclusion. The conclusion follows necessarily from the premises. How is this formulation absurd? Which premise do you disagree with? 1 or 2?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I recall that it depends on us believing that when time doesn't exist only sentient thought can take place. There's no response to that worth writing out at length. It's just stupid. It doesn't even begin to make sense. You may as well contend that the number three tastes purple. Anyone who spends time "refuting" such a claim is wasting their time because the person who came up with the idea is obviously divorced from any kind of rational argument.

I never made that point. Nor did I ever intend to.

If something has a cause it must have a beginning since it must have not existed, and then was caused. But something outside of time has no beginning. It never came into existence it simply always was. Thus, it needs no cause.

that is EXACTLY what modern physics SPECIFICALLY denies and proves to be wrong. simply because WE use the dimension of time to judge causes does not mean that they actually ARE causes. special reletivity has many cases where this is blatantly false{i.e. you go back in time and kill your father among others}. your logic is classical, intuitive and inadequate here. time is merely one dimension of reference. things are still CAUSED outside time. simply put, there is no justification for an uncaused cause

the others, you didnt deny, and hence, i suppose you indirectly concede that your premises are incomplete and your conclusion false.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
that is EXACTLY what modern physics SPECIFICALLY denies and proves to be wrong. simply because WE use the dimension of time to judge causes does not mean that they actually ARE causes. special reletivity has many cases where this is blatantly false{i.e. you go back in time and kill your father among others}. your logic is classical, intuitive and inadequate here. time is merely one dimension of reference. things are still CAUSED outside time. simply put, there is no justification for an uncaused cause

the others, you didnt deny, and hence, i suppose you indirectly concede that your premises are incomplete and your conclusion false.

Of course not. The whole first part of my argument was to show that the universe was not uncaused. It has a cause, which you agreed with in your last post. So I see no reason to continue defending a point you seem to have already supported.

yes but your conclusion is unjustified in tht argument because the argument requires that nothing be uncaused.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
yes but your conclusion is unjustified in tht argument because the argument requires that nothing be uncaused.

Nothing that begins to exist. Yes.

But who cares at this point? We both accept the conclusion to be true. We should move on. Continuing to debate over it seems a waste of time.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Nothing that begins to exist. Yes.

But who cares at this point? We both accept the conclusion to be true. We should move on. Continuing to debate over it seems a waste of time.

its when you say things like that....................when people stop taking you as a serious debater.

do you notice how much you are trying to move on and bury a conclusion that fundamentally destroys your own argument by glossing over detail?

your first sentence{which is you repeating a false premise AGAIN} is what i PROVED to be false and is PROVEN to be false in modern physics/cosmology. even if you are OUTSIDE time, you still have to be caused to exist. and on the other hand just because you are in time and have chronologically BEGUN to exist doesnt MEAN that you were caused, infact there ae precise situations in general reletivity where that is BLATANTLY false{i.e. travelling back in time and killing your mother before you are born}.

if you continue to use such tactics to not seriously answer arguments or problems in your own theories then people who will consider you to be trolling with overtly polite language.

you also use language to your advantage where you change the your answer in a fashion that it seems that the question being asked didnt exist or was a different question that posed{this you are doing conciously- making your intent fallacious}. for instance, you are pretending, that the argument was that the universe had a cause, when infant the argument you quoted was an argument for GOD as a cause which is itself uncaused.

no please, start actually ANSWERING some of these problems honestly. or, keep doing what your doing, seems to be working ell for you so far.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
its when you say things like that....................when people stop taking you as a serious debater.

do you notice how much you are trying to move on and bury a conclusion that fundamentally destroys your own argument by glossing over detail?

your first sentence{which is you repeating a false premise AGAIN} is what i PROVED to be false and is PROVEN to be false in modern physics/cosmology. even if you are OUTSIDE time, you still have to be caused to exist. and on the other hand just because you are in time and have chronologically BEGUN to exist doesnt MEAN that you were caused, infact there ae precise situations in general reletivity where that is BLATANTLY false{i.e. travelling back in time and killing your mother before you are born}.

if you continue to use such tactics to not seriously answer arguments or problems in your own theories then people who will consider you to be trolling with overtly polite language.

you also use language to your advantage where you change the your answer in a fashion that it seems that the question being asked didnt exist or was a different question that posed{this you are doing conciously- making your intent fallacious}. for instance, you are pretending, that the argument was that the universe had a cause, when infant the argument you quoted was an argument for GOD as a cause which is itself uncaused.

no please, start actually ANSWERING some of these problems honestly. or, keep doing what your doing, seems to be working ell for you so far.

Leonheart, this is only the first part of the argument. In this part the object IS only to prove the universe has a cause. Since this is something you already agree with, I see no reason to get into a debate about WHY we agree on the same thing. Doesn't that seem a little silly to you?

Very well, though. If you insist on debating the point I will do so.

You say that things that are outside of time (things that don't have a beginning) still require a cause. But you have not currently provided any support for this claim. You have simply stated that it is true.

Second, you state that even if you have a beginning, you don't necessarily need a cause. You also provided an example of going back in time and killing your mother before you were born. I don't see how this shows anything came into existence without a cause. You'll have to explain that to me.

nobody created God, for He is everlasting to everlasting God always been, He is the same yesterday, today and future he doesn't change. God is the source of creation, God has always been.

Originally posted by the Darkone
nobody created God, for He is everlasting to everlasting God always been, He is the same yesterday, today and future he doesn't change. God is the source of creation, God has always been.

What did they call god before man (he) was created?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
What did they call god before man (he) was created?

Who are "they" in this question if man didn't exist? 😎

Originally posted by TacDavey
Who are "they" in this question if man didn't exist? 😎

The big they, or any they. It is mean to be absurd, just like calling God "he" is absurd.

The way I imagine it is everything has always existed, even when there was nothing. It was this so called Divine Design that caused a kind of Big Bang.

Many believe an epicenter of the purest of this design is God itself. Some believe its raw data made up of many levels and layers. Some believe in both.

Some believe in alternate relaties or dimensions where some are still empty and others have divergent paths. Some believe this God flows through all them as a passive observer nuturing all within it.

Some believe before this Big Bang happened data existed in basic forms seperated into the Known (those that are active within God), The Unknown (those that are still unrealised by the Godhead) and Intent (those that have will to make change). A triad force philosophy created by the Toltec Indians. Pagan religions and Australian Aboriginal faith have myths that revolve around this philossphy as well. And arguably Norse and Greek mythology dables in the idea of basic godheads representing smaller pieces of god as well.

Originally posted by the ninjak
The way I imagine it is everything has always existed, even when there was nothing. It was this so called Divine Design that caused a kind of Big Bang.

Many believe an epicenter of the purest of this design is God itself. Some believe its raw data made up of many levels and layers. Some believe in both.

To me god is like dark matter. It is a place holder for something we can indirectly detect, but cannot understand. For example: why am I alive and not a rock? We fill the answer with a place holder "god".

We need to be careful not to ask the wrong questions. Like for dark matter, asking the question how dark is dark matter, puts emphasis on the place holder.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
To me god is like dark matter. It is a place holder for something we can indirectly detect, but cannot understand. For example: why am I alive and not a rock? We fill the answer with a place holder "god".

We need to be careful not to ask the wrong questions. Like for dark matter, asking the question how dark is dark matter, puts emphasis on the place holder.

Cool. That's why I imagine and not assume. I really look into such thoughts as creative writing/thought I prefer to write stories based on "what ifs" and whatnots for entertainment but I'll never assume any are true.

Your view on Dark Matter to me is similar to my idea of the Unknown. Which philosophically is still a piece of the whole. In the idea of the question "Who Created God" I imagine no beginning or end, Alpha and Omega but both. To understand the idea of God is both complex and simple at the same time so to say. And it's the creative idea of the philosophy of anything being complex yet simple at the same time is the root of the the quest of understanding.

I don't affiliate myself with any major religion, I just see it as an easy way out but to take my own path and accept any view openly with a smile.

Originally posted by the ninjak
Cool. That's why I imagine and not assume. I really look into such thoughts as creative writing/thought I prefer to write stories based on "what ifs" and whatnots for entertainment but I'll never assume any are true.

Your view on Dark Matter to me is similar to my idea of the Unknown. Which philosophically is still a piece of the whole. In the idea of the question "Who Created God" I imagine no beginning or end, Alpha and Omega but both. To understand the idea of God is both complex and simple at the same time so to say. And it's the creative idea of the philosophy of anything being complex yet simple at the same time is the root of the the quest of understanding.

Are you a writer?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
For example: why am I alive and not a rock? We fill the answer with a place holder "god".

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Are you a writer?

I've been studying to become a librarian for the last 6 years so I haven't done anything for a while. But in my teens I wrote comics. One called the Blood Network was based in a Lovecraftian style world in a war between Evil Shamans, vampires and the heroes that would fight against impossible odds. I involved Pagan style mythology into it. It never went beyond scribblings and a few issues because I could never find an artist. But my goal is once I get my career out of the way I'm going to start it again.

If the being god lives he was never born or you say he was created what started him or it? Because the measure of time before universe infinite.So existences was never a start but universes die and get born. itself never ending numbers of measures.There stuff out side of creation too.If god was powerful It seem we are nothing important to god because there no communication.Do we see him in death but not in life?Do you know how long we was unborn for before life ?There was nothing to know what was happening to us in the never born yet state for the never ending time without a body and senses .We humans don't know nothing until we are born in this world to learn it.I don't believe in a god because I don't think a being can create all existence of all universes and every place in time.not measurable: without any finite or measurable limits of space.All living things in existence there a big number of life that know nothing of word god man invented .God is man made but most would say the stuff that made us made it.People who worship something that not there We can scream into the empty silence trying to call it to us but nothing there for us.True freedom is better without acting like a god got plans for us. Because no one would really know that god is the thing they will encounter it could be a alien to us and something That was never was in contact with us.There only nothingness and silence. .We don't need to be saved.Pass the point of death we know no unknown place in the afterlife to truly be really what will happen to us.heaven or hell or back in the blank emptiness of no senses to reawake in as new birth again without knowledge of before or this is the one life we got that mean no new birth in existences too. God a being that powerful is so selfish and we are not important to it.It don't help us to impove the survival of our kind.I don't think existence made the being god.Because something can't be giving powers of everything.To make anything with what magic. what is the origin of what make this power or magic to do it.Because what made him can make another.being born in this world people don't know nothing of god.Until they come in contact with other people or make some form of what they think of the place around them to invent the thought of it.We human are the makers of the words and knowledge of putting something like that in place to explain the unknown.another thing is if existence made god it would not be one they would be more of them.Because of the stuff that created it and there nothing because.What the unknown element that make stuff of that god.there Multiple Universes with Multi births of Existences too and space a endless place it go on for infinite time.If there was a wall to a universe what that made of because breaking through go for a never ending path.What ever did it to created god can happen any where or you will say it happen at the birth of universe too.There no start or end to all existence outside creation being outside existence is another existence but some would say absense of existence is absense of space .If a universe died it still something to think about.heaven and hell would not be places that are not real to me but god believer say it to be.The other means we will die as this life is over in future we will come back as a new lifeform in birth of no knowledge of before in a unknown place in universe or multiverse or different space of time.Some even think we become ghost but the last one I said was meaning stuff that made the body that made us.Meaning the senses of the body after that gone we offline and What I mean we can't be place in a new birth after death but it a mystery of the unknown.no start or end of a god being no birth or death of it.no beginning of god or end and they say he everything in existence.The uncreation or creation of that makes god or gods.Making of god or the unmaking of god inside existence and outside existence.Pop in space and pop out of space there absence space.The nonuniverses are there too.the anti god the antiuniverse the antiexistence and anti space anti creation.most think god got a body or don't have one making him space and that empty.If spirit or energy of it is made of something and that would mean what made that stuff.Could make others.Most can't say there not more gods then one but no way of telling if it there.