Batman's usual advantages, Intelligence and fighting ability would not be a factor since Richards is smarter and can easily endure Bat's physical punishment. Batman would have an advantage in the mental toughness department, but only slightly, Reed is much tougher than people think, dont assume he's some soft scientist.
I have a ? Why do you say Reed is smarter than Batman. Didnt Batman create all of his gadgets, batmobile, JLA watch tower, his jet, He speaks countless languages, knows countless martial arts. I am not saying Reed is a dummy cause that would be just stupid. But saying he is smarter than Batman is a little loopy. I would say they are equal in intelligence. But I think Batman is his superior overall. He is a jack of all trades as to where Reed is just a gifted scientist. The disrespect for Batman is rediculous in these forums.
Originally posted by snoopdogg
I have a ? Why do you say Reed is smarter than Batman. Didnt Batman create all of his gadgets, batmobile, JLA watch tower, his jet, He speaks countless languages, knows countless martial arts. I am not saying Reed is a dummy cause that would be just stupid. But saying he is smarter than Batman is a little loopy. I would say they are equal in intelligence. But I think Batman is his superior overall. He is a jack of all trades as to where Reed is just a gifted scientist. The disrespect for Batman is rediculous in these forums.
Well according to Marvel Reed registers at "extrodinary genius" level intelligence. This is the highest ranking just below "omniscient" on marvel's intelligence scale.
At this level, he is said to be at the top of the game when it comes to just about any academic field of study. In addition to this, Richard's has created things Batman just wouldn't be able to do. (ie create time machines, suits made out of unstable molecules, etc) I think it's pretty obvious that Richards outclasses Batman in terms of scientific/academic knowledge.
Although not quite up to Reed's tech knowledge, I still believe that Batman is a better hands on tactician and is a lot quicker using his abilities and knowledge in battle than Reed is. But again due to the fact that he couldn't really do much to Reed physically, it would be a tough battle for him.
Originally posted by whobdamandog
Well according to Marvel Reed registers at "extrodinary genius" level intelligence. This is the highest ranking just below "omniscient" on marvel's intelligence scale.
Intelligence scale is poor to use for evaluation of a character, especially when referring to minds bound to limits. Reed Richards is by in fact a genius, but he's made plenty of careless mistakes that only his elastic durability has saved him from death as Batman would have been in the same shoes.
Batman is by no means infallible, but he has to make less big errors as his mortality permits him little. Reed on occasion has jumped head on against energy wielders irrationally. Perhaps he does this as comic writers want to emphasize his powers to differentiate him from a common genius/creator, but still...
Even though a gas charger sounds simplistic [even borderline stupid], it can still take down Reed if required. Sure Doom could have easily used it as well as a ton of other things, but then it wouldn't be a battle. On all likelihood, Reed should have fallen to him long ago. Many superheroes should be likely dead if not bound by writing (i.e. Dr. Evil's son complained why he couldn't just shoot Austin Powers instead of give the enemy a chance to escape). Realistically, it is an option if you don't mind one page fights.
Batman would take Richards down without an issue. Reed though he is an infinitely intelligent scientist and courageous fighter of wrong doing just doesn't have the warrior element that Batman does. Batman just has more skill and experience when it comes to actual combat. He has faced beings such as Clay-face, Poison Ivy, Mr. Freeze, Bane...etc. And each of them posses meta-human abilities which he was able to over come at one time or another.
Batman could easily have a muscle relaxant in his utility belt that could be administered to stop Reed. Mind you...Batman has had to deal with the likes of Plastic Man as well as Clay-face so Reed's powers wouldn't be something entirely new to him. Some sort of freeze capsule or some other tranquilizer could easily be administered considering again...that Reed isn't too bright when it comes to one on one confrontations. Especially with men like Batman who're out there using their physical prowess on a nearly night to night basis. Reed is great at thinking his way out of devastating situations with foes who offer planetary and immense threats to the world but he's not competent against a foe who's not only intelligent in his own right but cunning on the battle field as well. I think Batman's got Reed's number.
Originally posted by radioboy121
Intelligence scale is poor to use for evaluation of a character, especially when referring to minds bound to limits.
If intelligence were used as a single variable to define Reed in this particular battle, then yes it would be a poor evaluation. However, in the particular context intelligence is not the only variable that comes into play. Physical abilities play an equal if not greater role in comparing both characters. Like it or not, Batman would be facing an opponent who is undoubtly his physical superior in Reed, as well as an equal(if not superior) in intelligence.
The only areas that one could likely concede Batman being better than Reed at would be in his fighting ability, which as I stated before, will not give him any real advantage due to Reed's physical superiority.
Originally posted by radioboy121
Reed Richards is by in fact a genius, but he's made plenty of careless mistakes that only his elastic durability has saved him from death as Batman would have been in the same shoes.
Both characters have made mistakes in battle, and I don't believe either
one to be more fallable than the other. I do however see Reed as being less cool under pressure than the Bat when in battle, which as mentioned before, is due to the fact that Reed is scientest and not a warrior at heart like Batman. Still this by no means makes Batman a better tactician in battle, as both have accomplished extrodinary achievements when facing near impossible odds.
Originally posted by radioboy121
Even though a gas charger sounds simplistic [even borderline stupid], it can still take down Reed if required.
I don't know about a standard gas charger working on Reed as well as one might think, he's able to stretch out his respiratory and circulatory systems along with the rest of his body, and it might be difficult for Batman to get Reed to inhale all the necessary gas needed to take him out. Besides I really don't believe Reed to be foolish enough to just stand their after Batman fires the charger.
Originally posted by radioboy121
Sure Doom could have easily used it as well as a ton of other things, but then it wouldn't be a battle. On all likelihood, Reed should have fallen to him long ago. Many superheroes should be likely dead if not bound by writing (i.e. Dr. Evil's son complained why he couldn't just shoot Austin Powers instead of give the enemy a chance to escape). Realistically, it is an option if you don't mind one page fights.
True. But I have to say out of all the characters that deserve to be dead, there are none more deserving than Batman. I mean come on the guy goes up against Superman, Darkseid, Hulk, and countless other's and for whatever reason, regardless of how much they pound on him, he can't seem to be killed...Hell...maybe this means that Batman is Reed's physical superior after all 😆
Originally posted by whobdamandog
Physical abilities play an equal if not greater role in comparing both characters. Like it or not, Batman would be facing an opponent who is undoubtly his physical superior in Reed, as well as an equal(if not superior) in intelligence.The only areas that one could likely concede Batman being better than Reed at would be in his fighting ability, which as I stated before, will not give him any real advantage due to Reed's physical superiority.
As stated earlier, he has faced many that are physically fitter than him - either by strength or other unnatural abilities. I believe it was stated in an earlier post that he fought one who had a similar elasticity as Reed. Was it Plastic Man? Since there were many crossovers with Superman, it could even be Elastic Lad Jimmy.
Both characters have made mistakes in battle, and I don't believe either one to be more fallable than the other. I do however see Reed as being less cool under pressure than the Bat when in battle, which as mentioned before, is due to the fact that Reed is scientest and not a warrior at heart like Batman. Still this by no means makes Batman a better tactician in battle, as both have accomplished extrodinary achievements when facing near impossible odds.
True, I cannot discredit that partially the reason he's alive is that he had to use his wits to get out of trouble. But that could apply to even the most generic of characters. But it seems he also relies more heavily on the company of his team.
I don't know about a standard gas charger working on Reed as well as one might think, he's able to stretch out his respiratory and circulatory systems along with the rest of his body, and it might be difficult for Batman to get Reed to inhale all the necessary gas needed to take him out. Besides I really don't believe Reed to be foolish enough to just stand their after Batman fires the charger.
You can even punch Reed and he will still be disoriented. Sure the effects of something as generic as a gas charger will not take him down instantly, but it spreads out to all areas and even inhaling it will affect Reed's performance. Often times, a combination of items are used to take down a foe in Batman's arsenal.
True. But I have to say out of all the characters that deserve to be dead, there are none more deserving than Batman. I mean come on the guy goes up against Superman, Darkseid, Hulk, and countless other's and for whatever reason, regardless of how much they pound on him, he can't seem to be killed...Hell...maybe this means that Batman is Reed's physical superior after all 😆 [/B]
He should actually be called Catman as he has more than 1 life. If it wasn't for his niche fan-base, he would have been killed off by now (as Jason had).
Richards doesnt sit in his lab all day...He is the leader of the FF...He takes on just as big of foes as the JLA...with only three other people...and almost always succeeds. Ignoring that he orchestrates the leadership and strategy of the FF is ignorant.
Reed may not be as knowledgable as a Watcher obviously, but he has outsmarted both a Watcher, Galactus, and a Celestial on more than one occasion.
Originally posted by Wynndar
Richards doesnt sit in his lab all day...He is the leader of the FF...He takes on just as big of foes as the JLA...with only three other people...and almost always succeeds. Ignoring that he orchestrates the leadership and strategy of the FF is ignorant.Reed may not be as knowledgable as a Watcher obviously, but he has outsmarted both a Watcher, Galactus, and a Celestial on more than one occasion.
As specified, I do not discredit his ingenius, but this is Reed and Batman only. He will partake this battle alone and without and sheer power of his comrades. Batman is more often fine on his own. The new Robin is often times acknowledged (Tim himself even said) that he's his emotional support.
Galactus has his arrogance and has been tricked by less intelligent beings. Watchers can on occasion been curious and mischievious and a number have fallen on their own for this. I cannot elaborate on Celestials with Reed, with exception of the Dreaming Celestial, so no comment there.
originally posted by radioboy121
As stated earlier, he has faced many that are physically fitter than him - either by strength or other unnatural abilities. I believe it was stated in an earlier post that he fought one who had a similar elasticity as Reed. Was it Plastic Man? Since there were many crossovers with Superman, it could even be Elastic Lad Jimmy.
Once again, I think your forgetting the two most important variables in this battle when comparing Elastic Lad/Plastic Man to Reed...those two variables being intelligence & tactical skill in battle. Neither Plastic man nor Elastic Lad possess a fraction of abilities that Reed has demonstrated in these two areas.
originally posted by radioboy121
True, I cannot discredit that partially the reason he's alive is that he had to use his wits to get out of trouble. But that could apply to even the most generic of characters. But it seems he also relies more heavily on the company of his team.
I agree with you in Reed relying more heavily on his teamates to support him in battle. But you also have to take into account the quality & level of opponents Reed faces as opposed to Batman. Two Face, Penguin, Joker, and Bane would barely be able to withstand the farts of Doom, Galactus, Annihlus, or the Frightful Four.
Whenever Batman goes against opponents on the level of Reed's mentioned above, he almost always has assistance from the JLA. During these battles against these foes of awsome powers and intelligence, Batman fulfills a more tactical planning role much like Mr. Fantastic.
originally posted by radioboy121
You can even punch Reed and he will still be disoriented. Sure the effects of something as generic as a gas charger will not take him down instantly, but it spreads out to all areas and even inhaling it will affect Reed's performance. Often times, a combination of items are used to take down a foe in Batman's arsenal.
Well Im going to have to disagree with you here. I hardly believe a punch or kick from Batman will disorient someone whose elasticity has been known to aborb the impacts of Hulk, Wolverine, and Thing to name a few. Richards has even been able to repel missles on a number of occassions.
Batman is a character who greatly relies on knowing every intimate detail of his foes before battle. In a random confrontation with Reed he's going to know very little about him, which would leave him with a more than slight disadvantage as the battle begins. It will be difficult for Batman to find out what techniques do and don't work against Reed, and the split second it takes him to figure out what to do could easily be the second where he meets defeat at the hands of the FF's leader.
One must also take into consideration that Batman may not have everything in his utility belt to take Reed out in a Random encounter. In conclusion, I'd give Reed the advantage in their initial encounter.. and give the advantage to the Bat in any fights that preceeded the original.
Note: I bear no grudge on any member, but I continue to participate as I see this far more plausible than a farfetched Silver Surfer vs. Batman thread.
Originally posted by whobdamandog
Once again, I think your forgetting the two most important variables in this battle when comparing Elastic Lad/Plastic Man to Reed...those two variables being intelligence & tactical skill in battle. Neither Plastic man nor Elastic Lad possess a fraction of abilities that Reed has demonstrated in these two areas.
Reed's intelligence is being highly overrated in this battle. Just due to the reason his intelligence may be overall better than Batman does not exempt Batman's own. The pre Alpha Flight had a genius that was supposedly on rival of Reed's, yet he was still useless on certain factors, this including fighting.
Second, tactical skills? As said, he's by himself and when fighting on his own, he's been stampeded, rolled up in a basketball, airplaned, etc. Batman will not do any of these of course, but Mr. Fantastic doesn't whip up an invention or create his own Arcadeworld everytime he goes to battle. In the most base of tactics, he fights with the abilities granted to him.
I agree with you in Reed relying more heavily on his teamates to support him in battle. But you also have to take into account the quality & level of opponents Reed faces as opposed to Batman. Two Face, Penguin, Joker, and Bane would barely be able to withstand the farts of Doom, Galactus, Annihlus, or the Frightful Four.Whenever Batman goes against opponents on the level of Reed's mentioned above, he almost always has assistance from the JLA. During these battles against these foes of awsome powers and intelligence, Batman fulfills a more tactical planning role much like Mr. Fantastic.
Reed has trouble with Doom, since they share a history with each together and know each other. Players like Galactus and Annihilus are huge power players that would intimidate most mortals, so of course he's not going to duke against them directly if he can help it. But if he's going to face Batman, do you think he will be intimidated by the skin-tight costume fighter? Will he create a contraption to ensnarl Batman because his eyes and speech emphasize too much wisdom, that he is afraid of the Dark Knight's menacing presence, or that he is paranoid the utility belt might have a Ultimate Nullifier stashed in there? First encounter - Reed uses his elasticity abilities to try and subdue Batman.
Sure some of Batman's foes appear to be two-bit thugs that I don't know why should even be considered a comparison to Reed's specified foes, but not all should be discounted either (i.e. Joker was once clever enough to outwit Mr. Mxyzptlk's of his powers).
Lastly, I thought Batman was a reserved JLA anyway? He was once discredited from the rank because he didn't have actual superpowers, but later showed his worth regardless.
Well Im going to have to disagree with you here. I hardly believe a punch or kick from Batman will disorient someone whose elasticity has been known to aborb the impacts of Hulk, Wolverine, and Thing to name a few. Richards has even been able to repel missles on a number of occassions.
Of all his enhanced durability, Mr. Fantastic has shown to be quite vulnerable to the face (much like Blob his). Regardless of how elastically durable he's shown, he still eats, breaths, etc. Sure Hulk can launch an uppercut on Reed and he might recover, but why does he always groan when he's punched in the face? If he was defined so durable here as the rest of his body, he would probably be almost impossible to knock unconscious. In this fight, Batman probably wouldn't even need to necessarily hit him anyway.
Batman is a character who greatly relies on knowing every intimate detail of his foes before battle. In a random confrontation with Reed he's going to know very little about him, which would leave him with a more than slight disadvantage as the battle begins. It will be difficult for Batman to find out what techniques do and don't work against Reed, and the split second it takes him to figure out what to do could easily be the second where he meets defeat at the hands of the FF's leader.
Elastic characters are not a new thing to Batman. There is no doubt he will be surprised at first of his power, but that applies in every respect for Reed. He doesn't know if he's powered enhanced or a just a human in a costume. Batman's mind is quick and unless he's facing a Flash, then he could manage to manuever from Reed's normal attacks enough to figure at least at a primordial level how to approach him.
One must also take into consideration that Batman may not have everything in his utility belt to take Reed out in a Random encounter. In conclusion, I'd give Reed the advantage in their initial encounter.. and give the advantage to the Bat in any fights that preceeded he original.
Granted, as Batman doesn't have boundless room down there (stop thinking nasty). I have to give him the benefit of the doubt that he has his required tools, otherwise it would be martial arts MacGuyver against Mr. Fantastic.
Originally posted by radioboy121
But if he's going to face Batman, do you think he will be intimidated by the skin-tight costume fighter? Will he create a contraption to ensnarl Batman because his eyes and speech emphasize too much wisdom, that he is afraid of the Dark Knight's menacing presence, or that he is paranoid the utility belt might have a Ultimate Nullifier stashed in there?
Mr. Fantastic is, when facing a new, unknown enemy, always the first to say : "Let's all be careful people, cause we don't know the powers of this creature/enemy/vilain/KMC member!", so he won't underestimate Batman.
But I still give this to Richards, because Reed will soon find out Batman is just a human being without superpowers, and fighting Richards - especially when you don't know him - is very difficult, because his flexibility, brains, experience and unpredictable powers will be more than a challenge for the Dark Knight. Also don't forget that Richards can just pick up Batman and throw him away a few hundred meters lol.
Batman can win, absolutely, but not without preptime. The first fight he loses.
Originally posted by who?-kidYou have some good points, but here I disagree. Reed Richards isn't the underestimating kind, he won't attack with his eyes closed without knowing at least a little bit about his opponent, just like Batman won't.
Mr. Fantastic is, when facing a new, unknown enemy, always the first to say : "Let's all be careful people, cause we don't know the powers of this creature/enemy/vilain/KMC member!", so he won't underestimate Batman. [/B]
He's faced existing characters and he still sometimes fights directly. Mr. Fantastic doesn't rack his brain on everything and even then, Batman isn't going to twiddle his thumbs either.
Originally posted by manjaro
batman totally doesnt have this one. i know everyone likes to give him the whole"if he had a lot of prep time" advantage but against reed he's dust man. one over sized pimp slap and its over for home boy[/B]
I thought this was an impromptu battle? He doesn't need "prep time" to be a contender. If Reed took the principle of enlarging his fist and pounding on every character he fought, his track record would surely be better.
Originally posted by radioboy121
Note: I bear no grudge on any member, but I continue to participate as I see this far more plausible than a farfetched Silver Surfer vs. Batman thread.
No problem my man...this has been a good argument. No offense was taken. Your definately a good debater. It's good to have someone actually challenge me with plausible arguments instead of the usual "This character rules!!" arguments. I'm out on this one since I believe I've already made my point.