Yerssot
Let it simply be said that we know more about the details of the hours immediately before and the actual death of Jesus, in and near Jerusalem, than we know about the death of any other one man in ALL the ancient world.
The disciples had nothing to gain by lying and starting a new religion. They faced hardship, ridicule, hostility, and martyr's death. In light of this, they could have never sustained such unwavering motivation if they knew what they were preaching was a lie.
Without belief in the resurrection the Christian faith could not have come in being. The disciples would have remained crushed and defeated men. Even had they continued to remember Jesus as their beloved teacher, his crucifixion would have forever silenced any hopes of his being the Messiah. The cross would have remained the sad and shameful end of his career. The origins of Christianity therefore hinges on the belief of the early disciples that God had raised Jesus from the dead.
When therefore the disciples began to preach the resurrection in Jerusalem and people responded, and when religious authorities stood helplessly by, the tomb must have been empty. The simple fact that the Christian fellowship, founded on belief in the resurrection, came into existence and flourished in the VERY CITY where he was executed and buried is powerful evidence for the historicity of the empty tomb.
Think about it! People in biblical times were just as skeptical as YOU. All they had to do to end Christianity was produce the dead body of Jesus Christ. But... it never happened! And so we talk about it 2,000 years later.
"Eighty and six years have I served Him, and He hath done me no wrong. How can I speak evil of my King who saved me?" - Polycarp (a disciple of John) just before being burned alive for his faith at age 86
Finti
Relevant comment, but it's absolutely weak. The tomb was guarded by Roman soldiers and there are other aspects to consider. You would know of these things if you studied. As a matter of fact, the most authoritive Atheists don't even argue about the tomb! It's a dead issue. And, you overlooked the resurrection, which confirms the deity of Jesus Christ. If it were not true, people would not subject themseleves to death and torment. Would you go to jail over a lie a friend told you? Would you die for it?
People naturally analyze things of this magnitude. Your not the only one. It's a healthy thing! Continue to do so. However, it's imperative to study the facts and not allow your own philosophy to corrupt thruths without considering ALL related issues.
Christianity is not a leap into the dark. It's factual. People as skeptical as you become believers all the time. I was one. As previously stated in other messages in different forums, every book I have about Christianity was written by Atheists that converted!
I don't know you. But, you seem to have a saucy attitude regarding religion in general. Don't you think something of this nature requires indepth study to make a more accurate assumption? Honestly, how much have you studied? Level with me. Buy the book "The Case for Christ".
Relevant comment, but it's absolutely weak. The tomb was guarded by Roman soldiers and there are other aspects to consider. You would know of these things if you studied. As a matter of fact, the most authoritive Atheists don't even argue about the tomb! It's a dead issue. And, you overlooked the resurrection, which confirms the deity of Jesus Christ. If it were not true, people would not subject themseleves to death and torment. Would you go to jail over a lie a friend told you? Would you die for it?
People as skeptical as you become believers all the time.people with faith like yours become sceptics all teh time
I don't know you. But, you seem to have a saucy attitude regarding religion in general. Don't you think something of this nature requires indepth study to make a more accurate assumption? Honestly, how much have you studied? Level with me. Buy the book "The Case for Christ".Ive studied christianity for 9 years, in Norway it is mandatory to have it in school.
Finti
We are finally communicating! Thank you.
I understood everything that you said. Regarding the empty tomb, atheists and skeptics alike, no longer bring up the issue as substantial evidence to support their views; NOT because they know without a doubt that they are right, but because they know they are wrong. Why try and convince someone that 2005 Corvettes do not come stock with 400 horsepower?
In response to your comment about people simply stealing or hiding the boby of Jesus Christ creating a hoax, simply carries no weight. Jesus Christ was a superstar (for lack of a better word), and anyone or persons hiding his body would have been identified in the long run.
Try stealing the body of President Reagon, sure you could pull a stunt like that off with time and preperation, but you'd eventualy be caught and identified. You can't just simply hide the body of someone as famous as President Reagon or Jesus Christ for the matter. People gossip, including persons that could commit such actions. They would tell at least one person!
During the Golf War, CNN News crews were on the battle field with U. S. soldiers. Saddom Husseins's own troops were surrendering to camera men! What? How could CNN crews get information as to the where abouts of U. S. soldiers; information that Saddom Hussein would love to have? Gossip. It all starts with one person telling another, and the news begins to snow ball. Government information leaks ALL the time, and it's due to gossip.
Think about all the gossip you heard of in highschool. So and so is dating her or him, so and so and going to fight after school, so and so got suspended from school today for whatever, so and so has an STD, so and so is pregnant, the list goes on. Look at Micheal Jackson's trial. Secret confessions and court details are now avaliable to view on the internet!
As for the resurrection? If a man came forth and stated that he was President Reagon, after being dead all this time, would be considered mentally unstable and that he obviously has problems. But, if it actually was President Reagon, people would be AMAZED! The impact would be so great, that future generations would know about it. The story would NEVER die.
Elvis? Who STILL believes that Elvis is still alive? I'll entertain this and say that a thousand believe. Well, what kind of impact have they had on the world? Virtually none. As new generations are birthed, he will be forgotten, because there is no substance behind the notion; no eyewitness accounts or anything, just true fans believing that he his. Today, nobody talks about Elvis in the context that he is still alive, they talk about his music. And that's that.
Tell the cashier at the local 7-11 that you saw Elvis in the mall the other day and you will be laughed at and labeled strange. Try getting people to support you in your efforts in building a religious team of some sort in belief that Elvis is alive. It would NEVER happen! Impossible!
But 2,000 years later, people ALL over the world worship Jesus Christ, and you think this is due to ridiculous stories and idiotic lies that people casually talked about and excepted? People are not that naive and stupid.
Jesus Christ was a superstar (for lack of a better word), and anyone or persons hiding his body would have been identified in the long run.in those days it wasnt all that hard to get away from stuff like that dont compare it with todays situation cause the investigation scene today carries tools that uncovers lead found around the scene.
But 2,000 years later, people ALL over the world worship Jesus Christ, and you think this is due to ridiculous stories and idiotic lies that people casually talked about and excepted? People are not that naive and stupid.actually people are that naive, because they want to believe it cause it makes such a good story.
Finti
If someone informed you of a vision or experience they had, and it was incredibly idiotic (like a man rising from the dead), you would either ignore it, or look further into those claims. You would not however, except those visions or experiences without ground evidence or eyewitness accounts. Why? Because you would be smart and intelligent in doing so.
If I told you that an alien asked me for 10 dollars to put gas in his spaceship, you'd think I was out of my mind! You wouldn't except it for face value! It would be foolish to do so. However, if I showed you substantial evidence that it did occur, you'd soon believe me. Believing things of this magnitude without evidence goes against reason and human nature. The same applies to the risen Jesus Christ. "Hey... Jesus rose from the dead!" "Oh really... how do you know?" "Well, because I said so!" "Oh, okay, I belive you then, thanks." People in those time has commen sense too.
I don't understand how you think people just gave into some "supernatural" story because a couple of people said it was true and those thousands of people committed intellectual suicide and just believed for the heck of it?
As for the news, they report stories on war, economy, buisness, government, science, local crime, lottery winners, etc. They DO NOT report stories about green goblins and witches! In short, someone believing the news on TV does not require intellectual suicide, even though it may be wrong. They are not talking about the "supernatural". Understand?
If I told you that I won a million dollars, you might just believe me? Why? Because there is nothing ridiculous about that. People win the lottery. No big deal. If I told you that God gave me a million dollars, that definately put's a spin on things doesn't it? How about seeing the risen Jesus? Yes? Right?
For people to believe in the risen Jesus, there must have been substantial evidence or eyewitness accounts! Again, you can't just make claims like that and expect it to live for future generations if it were not true. LIES HAVE A SHORT LIFE SPAN! And further more, why would you make such claims knowing thay you could possibly die for it?
TRY STARTING YOUR OWN RELIGION AND WATCH WHAT HAPPENS. GRAB A FEW FRIENDS AND HAVE THEM ASSIST YOU. YOUR AMBITIONS WILL DESTROYED BY PEOPLE WHO KNOW BETTER. YOU WILL WIND UP IN A ROOM WITH PADDED WALLS.
If I told you, that an alian told me that it was going to destroy the world in the year 2007, would you believe me? Why or why not?
Originally posted by ushomefreeFor people to believe in the risen Jesus, there must have been substantial evidence or eyewitness accounts!
Substantial?
No.
There is NO evidence.
There was no immediate enormous upsurge of Christianity after Jesus' death.
People only began writing about him decades after his crucifixion.
Tex
As a matter of fact, scriptures were written 30 to 50 years after Jesus' death. In ancient times, that's extremely fast in comparison to other historical figures like Alexander the Great or Buddah, which were written 500 to 1,000 years after death. In short, when scriptures were written about Jesus, the people who saw Him were still alive! Again, people need tangible (substantial) evidence to have faith in anything. Simply writing a book (however many years after) or making a few claims of inspiration will NOT win hearts.
People have more intelligence than cows, and so do YOU. You only lack faith because you have not studied science, archeology and secular history. People who were alive in the times of Jesus "actually" saw and touched Him, spoke and ate with Him. Again, for the 3rd or 4th time... LIES HAVE A SHORT LIFE SPAN.
Finti
You never answered my question. If I told you that an Alien TOLD ME that it was going to destroy the world in 2007, would you believe me? Why or why not?